Will you download the contact tracing app?

murpho999

sydthebeat wrote: »

anyway, as an experiment ive left bluetooth and location on all day and im at 30% battery power currently , with regular usage.
I turned on battery saver at 50%. so i have noticed a marked impact of having both bluetooth and location turned on on my phone, but its not down to the covid app.

The covid app itself has VERY minimal battery use... only 0.7% of battery or 28.7 mAh according to accubattery (chrome is highly battery intensive, with 30% of my battery capacity)
interestingly though its discharge speed is quite high, which basically means if you open the app and leave it open for a time it has a particularly high discharge rate, even higher than chrome on my phone

so essentially turn the app on and forget about it., and it will use minimal resources on your phone.



However due to this whole issue ive had to reassess what apps have access to location. As i only even turned it on when required ie google maps etc i didnt pay particular attention to the permissions. ive turned off about 10 apps (to allow only when using app) so that currently i have only 3 apps that use location all the time. Hopefully that will have an impact on my battery life.

Ok it's a bit confusing this but you're saying Chrome used 30% of your battery which is nothing to do with the app.

Also, I'd say battery use whilst using the Covid App is down to powering the screen which is the biggest power user of all. Turning brightness down a bit would really help with that.

murpho999

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Is it not Bluetooth rather than the app that will use the power?

Personally I will probably enable Bluetooth when I am outside the home, but I don't really see the point having it on all the time such as at night time.

As discussed loads of times, modern low power Bluetooth will only use about 1% of your battery each day. There's no need to keep turning it off.

tobefrank321

murpho999 wrote: »

As discussed loads of times, modern low power Bluetooth will only use about 1% of your battery each day. There's no need to keep turning it off.

That's fine.

The problem I foresee however is that those who actually need to fear covid 19 are probably least likely to install the app, ie the elderly. I think in South Korea they handed them a Bluetooth enabled device to carry around. Here, we'd need to make sure all elderly have the app.

sydthebeat

murpho999 wrote: »

Ok it's a bit confusing this but you're saying Chrome used 30% of your battery which is nothing to do with the app.

Also, I'd say battery use whilst using the Covid App is down to powering the screen which is the biggest power user of all. Turning brightness down a bit would really help with that.

I mentioned chrome as an aside to show the relativity of the covid usage compared to the highest app usage. That's why I put it in brackets after mentioning the covid app usage.

I didn't mean it to be confusing, sorry if it looks that way.

plodder

tobefrank321 wrote: »

That's fine.

The problem I foresee however is that those who actually need to fear covid 19 are probably least likely to install the app, ie the elderly. I think in South Korea they handed them a Bluetooth enabled device to carry around. Here, we'd need to make sure all elderly have the app.

My view would be that it's people who are most at risk of contracting the virus who need it most, rather than the people who are most vulnerable.

I think the median age of cases has been typically 30-40 and that age group are likely (or can easily be encouraged) to install it.

But, older people should be encouraged as well. Their younger relatives can set it up for them if necessary.

El Weirdo

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The problem I foresee however is that those who actually need to fear covid 19 are probably least likely to install the app, ie the elderly.

What difference would it make if they had it or not? Downloading the app doesn't prevent you from getting COVID, it is a tool to help prevent uncontrollable spread of the virus.

scargill

I've scrolled through the last 10 pages and couldn't find the answer...so forgive me if my question has already been answered!

If I have been in close contact with a person who has been tested positive....what is the actual procedure?

1. Do they tell the App that they are ill initially and then they go for a test. Does a contact tracer get alerted that the person has indicated that they are unwell and then contacts them to arrange a test?

2. If I was a close contact of the unwell person (who I don't personally know) do I then get an alert on my phone or does a contact tracer contact me? Should I then get a test and/or self isolate?

3. What about other close contacts that have been recorded on my phone - are they in turn alerted (by phone or tracer) ?

jester77

plodder wrote: »

But, older people should be encouraged as well. Their younger relatives can set it up for them if necessary.

My parents don't have a smart phone, and I would imagine a lot of the older generation don't either. My mam has some sort of a flip phone with large buttons, could be a Doro 7060. And my dad has an old school Nokia

plodder

scargill wrote: »

I've scrolled through the last 10 pages and couldn't find the answer...so forgive me if my question has already been answered!

If I have been in close contact with a person who has been tested positive....what is the actual procedure?

1. Do they tell the App that they are ill initially and then they go for a test. Does a contact tracer get alerted that the person has indicated that they are unwell and then contacts them to arrange a test?

2. If I was a close contact of the unwell person (who I don't personally know) do I then get an alert on my phone or does a contact tracer contact me? Should I then get a test and/or self isolate?

3. What about other close contacts that have been recorded on my phone - are they in turn alerted (by phone or tracer) ?

The person you were in contact with will be asked if they have the app, and if so they are asked will they upload their contacts. If they agree they are given a code that causes their data for the last 14 days to be uploaded.

Then your phone picks up the data and check if you have been in contact. It sees that you have and you are alerted by the app. If you agree to being contacted by the HSE (and have registered your phone number) then you will get a contact tracing call as well. Between the call and the app, the next steps would (I presume) be explained to you and would involve you getting a test .... and so on.

El Weirdo

scargill wrote: »

1. Do they tell the App that they are ill initially and then they go for a test. Does a contact tracer get alerted that the person has indicated that they are unwell and then contacts them to arrange a test?

If a person test positive, they are contacted by the contact tracing team who will ask if they have the app on their phone. If they do and they consent to uploading the data from their phone, they are given a code to enter into the app.

scargill wrote: »

2. If I was a close contact of the unwell person (who I don't personally know) do I then get an alert on my phone or does a contact tracer contact me? Should I then get a test and/or self isolate?

You will get an alert and if you have submitted your phone number, you will be contacted by the HSE. If you haven't submitted your number, you will be asked to call the HSE to arrange a test. You should obviously self isolate.

scargill wrote: »

3. What about other close contacts that have been recorded on my phone - are they in turn alerted (by phone or tracer) ?

If you test positive, the same process will occur as above for you contacts.

scargill

plodder wrote: »

The person you were in contact with will be asked if they have the app, and if so they are asked will they upload their contacts. If they agree they are given a code that causes their data for the last 14 days to be uploaded.

Then your phone picks up the data and check if you have been in contact. It sees that you have and you are alerted by the app. If you agree to being contacted by the HSE (and have registered your phone number) then you will get a contact tracing call as well. Between the call and the app, the next steps would (I presume) be explained to you and would involve you getting a test .... and so on.

Thanks. It does rely on ill people getting tested quickly so? I presume the alerting of close contacts only begins after a positive test? Or does it begin if they feel unwell with covid symptoms and have phoned HSE to arrange a test?

tjhook

El Weirdo wrote: »

What difference would it make if they had it or not? Downloading the app doesn't prevent you from getting COVID, it is a tool to help prevent uncontrollable spread of the virus.

Surely an uncontrolled spread makes it more likely you'll get it?

On a micro level, if the person you've arranged to meet for lunch gets an alert that one of their "contacts" has tested positive, the cancellation of your lunch date makes it less likely that you'll catch it.

plodder

scargill wrote: »

Thanks. It does rely on ill people getting tested quickly so? I presume the alerting of close contacts only begins after a positive test? Or does it begin if they feel unwell with covid symptoms and have phoned HSE to arrange a test?

Only after a positive test. So, it does rely on people with symptoms getting tested quickly.

plodder

jester77 wrote: »

My parents don't have a smart phone, and I would imagine a lot of the older generation don't either. My mam has some sort of a flip phone with large buttons, could be a Doro 7060. And my dad has an old school Nokia

My own Dad struggles with all tech including his smart phone. So, I understand the issue. I think the idea of single function Bluetooth devices (like in Korea) is an interesting one that you could give people.

If this whole "experiment" is anyway successful then I could see something like that happening, specially since the same system will be used world-wide and could be mass-produced cheaply.

scargill

plodder wrote: »

Only after a positive test. So, it does rely on people with symptoms getting tested quickly.

thanks...some more questions! On the App if a person clicks on "I'm feeling unwell today" and records a few covid symptoms does that trigger the HSE to make contact with them to arrange a test? Or does the person need to make the first move to arrange a test?

Testing will really need to be super quick - if it takes a few days then the ripples of contacts meeting other contacts could end up with quite a lot of people needing to self isolate (now that sport, restaurants, etc. are back open).

It will include a lot of people who haven't contracted the virus too (obviously better to be safe) and they won't be released from self isolation until they get a negative test.

plodder

scargill wrote: »

thanks...some more questions! On the App if a person clicks on "I'm feeling unwell today" and records a few covid symptoms does that trigger the HSE to make contact with them to arrange a test? Or does the person need to make the first move to arrange a test?

No, that is completely separate. The contact tracing works whether you optin to that or not. The purpose of that is to give the HSE some advance warning of where clusters might be popping up. It does not result in you receiving a phone call.

Testing will really need to be super quick - if it takes a few days then the ripples of contacts meeting other contacts could end up with quite a lot of people needing to self isolate (now that sport, restaurants, etc. are back open).

It will include a lot of people who haven't contracted the virus too (obviously better to be safe) and they won't be released from self isolation until they get a negative test.

KyussB

plodder wrote: »

The issue you mentioned affects any phone that uses Bluetooth whether this app is installed or not. So, it doesn't really make sense to tie it to this Covid app.

That said, a significant chunk of the 40% you quote are unable to use this feature anyway and only versions 6 and 7 might be affected which is around 25% of the total installed base. I think if you told those people to stop using their phones due to a vulnerability that could be exploited by someone standing within 10 metres, I'm not sure they would do it (unless they have already). So, why worry about it now?

Sure, it's not a great idea to be using a device that is not getting security updates. I think if I were in that position I'd ask myself, why is this suddenly a concern now? I'd probably review my usage of the phone and make sure to keep no sensitive information on it etc, and then install the Covid app or else get a new phone anyway (regardless of this app).

It absolutely does make sense to tie it to this app - because this app is going to have people using bluetooth all the time, where they did not before - pretty much making it worthwhile to start developing in-the-wild exploits for this issue. Bluetooth is not designed to be used in the way the covid app requires - and using it in that way massively increases the damage such an exploit can cause.

Versions 8 and 9 are affected - not all devices have security updates happening automatically or frequently.

If the bluetooth vulnerability can be exploited using the phones that are vulnerable (as in, malware developed to go from one vulnerable devices to another), then this does not require the person exploiting to be within metres - it only requires passing by someone who has already been hit by such malware - ironically making it spread like a particularly virulent physical virus...

Not everyone can afford to buy new phones all the time - neither is it sensible for people to be doing so. Phones should last at least half a decade before being replaced, if not much longer.

Jim_Hodge

plodder wrote: »

But, older people should be encouraged as well. Their younger relatives can set it up for them if necessary.

Older is a relative concept however....I'm not yet in the vulnerable age group, and hope to be back out and about a bit more in the near future, but I'm not a big tech user and get by with a smartphone I bought in January 2012. It's not a matter of somebody setting it up for us. The app won't work on older phones, naturally, but I'm not buying a new phone I don't need. I only know perhaps one friend who would have a smartphone new enough to download the app.

MadYaker

We don't need absolutely everyone to download it anyway. Seems to me the uptake so far has been pretty good so we'll get enough users to make it effective.

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

It absolutely does make sense to tie it to this app - because this app is going to have people using bluetooth all the time, where they did not before - pretty much making it worthwhile to start developing in-the-wild exploits for this issue. Bluetooth is not designed to be used in the way the covid app requires - and using it in that way massively increases the damage such an exploit can cause.

People are already using Bluetooth "all the time" in their cars. You're exaggerating the impact, especially as any attack requires proximity. How come such an attack hasn't been developed already to target busy streets/roads?

Versions 8 and 9 are affected - not all devices have security updates happening automatically or frequently.

8 and 9 are still being supported by google.

If the bluetooth vulnerability can be exploited using the phones that are vulnerable (as in, malware developed to go from one vulnerable devices to another), then this does not require the person exploiting to be within metres - it only requires passing by someone who has already been hit by such malware - ironically making it spread like a particularly virulent physical virus...

Again, you'd have to ask why not before now? Bluetooth is widely used already.

Not everyone can afford to buy new phones all the time - neither is it sensible for people to be doing so. Phones should last at least half a decade before being replaced, if not much longer.

If such an exploit is developed then they can deal with it by disabling the app on older devices or providing patches for the older OS versions. That fact alone will dissuade malicious actors in my opinion. Bottom line - it's a known bug. It's been fixed and can be back-ported to older releases quickly if necessary.

KyussB

plodder wrote: »

People are already using Bluetooth "all the time" in their cars. You're exaggerating the impact, especially as any attack requires proximity. How come such an attack hasn't been developed already to target busy streets/roads?

8 and 9 are still being supported by google.

Again, you'd have to ask why not before now? Bluetooth is widely used already.

If such an exploit is developed then they can deal with it by disabling the app on older devices or providing patches for the older OS versions. That fact alone will dissuade malicious actors in my opinion. Bottom line - it's a known bug. It's been fixed and can be back-ported to older releases quickly if necessary.

Using bluetooth in your car isn't "all the time" - the entire point of the covid app is that you're constantly using bluetooth everywhere you go, at every moment - THAT is all the time, that is way more than just in your car!

A significant percentage of covid contacts logged on your phone, become potential malware vectors now if you have a vulnerable device yourself, thanks to this exploit.

Versions 8 and 9 are still affected, as not all devices get updates...

You're completely playing down the severity of this exploit - a significant percentage of devices currently in use are wide open to this exploit - and the requirements of the covid app, to leave bluetooth running all the time, make it possible for malware using this exploit to travel much faster and more widely, if exploitable to hop between vulnerable devices - than before the covid app...

GarIT

El Weirdo wrote: »

What difference would it make if they had it or not? Downloading the app doesn't prevent you from getting COVID, it is a tool to help prevent uncontrollable spread of the virus.

Early interverntion reduces the risk of an ICU stay or death. The App enables early intervation if you find out you have been exposed before you start experiencing any symptoms.

hmmm

KyussB wrote: »

You're completely playing down the severity of this exploit

Give it a break and stop pretending to be an expert on something you are clearly clueless about. This site is full of people working in IT and can see right through you.

murpho999

KyussB wrote: »

Using bluetooth in your car isn't "all the time" - the entire point of the covid app is that you're constantly using bluetooth everywhere you go, at every moment - THAT is all the time, that is way more than just in your car!

A significant percentage of covid contacts logged on your phone, become potential malware vectors now if you have a vulnerable device yourself, thanks to this exploit.

Versions 8 and 9 are still affected, as not all devices get updates...

You're completely playing down the severity of this exploit - a significant percentage of devices currently in use are wide open to this exploit - and the requirements of the covid app, to leave bluetooth running all the time, make it possible for malware using this exploit to travel much faster and more widely, if exploitable to hop between vulnerable devices - than before the covid app...

Seriously, what are you on about?

How are anonymous phone codes downloaded on your phone becoming potential malware vectors?

Bluetooth is on all the time in your car if you're connected for calls or music.
Bluetooth being on all or used all the time is not a security risk at all.

Never heard such rubbish in my life.

KyussB

hmmm wrote: »

Give it a break and stop pretending to be an expert on something you are clearly clueless about. This site is full of people working in IT and can see right through you.

I've spent the last 20 years working with programming and fixing exploits - if there is an IT person here, that doesn't understand the severity of this exploit, and that a significant number of android devices remain vulnerable - then they don't have a clue how to write safe code:
https://insinuator.net/2020/02/critical-bluetooth-vulnerability-in-android-cve-2020-0022/

KyussB

murpho999 wrote: »

Seriously, what are you on about?

How are anonymous phone codes downloaded on your phone becoming potential malware vectors?

Bluetooth is on all the time in your car if you're connected for calls or music.
Bluetooth being on all or used all the time is not a security risk at all.

Never heard such rubbish in my life.

Nobody said the app is a malware vector. Read up on the exploit above ^^.

igCorcaigh

There is a Bluetooth setting on my android phone called "currently visible to nearby devices".

Does this setting need to be turned on for the covid tracking app to work?

I currently have it turned on.

GarIT

igCorcaigh wrote: »

There is a Bluetooth setting on my android phone called "currently visible to nearby devices".

Does this setting need to be turned on for the covid tracking app to work?

I currently have it turned on.

You can turn it off if you wish. It's not used for this.

hmmm

KyussB wrote: »

I've spent the last 20 years working with programming and fixing exploits

I doubt it. You demonstrate little in the way of risk assessment.

if there is an IT person here, that doesn't understand the severity of this exploit

You've filled the thread with posts about an obscure exploit with a cool name, which no-one outside of the KGB could be bothering exploiting because it is too much work, too little payback and too trivial to care about. Please stop it.

KyussB

hmmm wrote: »

I doubt it. You demonstrate little in the way of risk assessment.

You've filled the thread with posts about an obscure exploit with a cool name, which no-one outside of the KGB could be bothering exploiting because it is too much work, too little payback and too trivial to care about. Please stop it.

Well you obviously know fuck all about programming or exploits - you don't need to be an intelligence agency to exploit something like this, there's a full proof of concept available for exploiting this particular one.

Don't try to lecture others out of talking about a topic, claiming they have no knowledge of it, when they work in that field and you have zero knowledge of it yourself - makes you look like a fool.