Will you download the contact tracing app?

CBear1993

CBear1993 wrote: »

I suppose you want people to wear masks outdoors as well?

Well i for one want people to wear masks outdoors. You wearing a mask protects:

You
Me
Your loved ones
My loved ones
People you or I encounter but don't care about

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

There is nothing backing this bolded part. Allowing apps to access your location does not equal agreeing to your location being sent to third parties - even though there is crossover with apps that do send location info to third parties - and it's not equivalent with agreeing with your location being sent to Google.

You're drawing multiple false equivalencies, trying to pretend that a survey answering question A, answers a completely different question B - when it does not.

You're not responding to the point that I made (but still latched on to that misunderstanding which has been clarified).

KyussB wrote:

Accepting a privacy tradeoff in return for convenience, does not equal being unconcerned about privacy.

I think everyone accepts that. When people say "unconcerned" they mean "on balance not so concerned as to do anything about it"

Can we move on from this now?

Akrasia

CBear1993 wrote: »

What’s the issue ?

It’s a public health measure. You might as well be on here saying you know you should wash your hands after wiping your arse but don’t feel like it.

People, understandably don’t want to get your sh1t on their hands when opening doors or touching railings

The app isn’t for your own good, it’s for the public good, especially if you’re going to be flying off to known hotspots where you are increasing the risk of bringing the infection back home with you

CBear1993

Deleted User wrote: »

Well i for one want people to wear masks outdoors. You wearing a mask protects:

You
Me
Your loved ones
My loved ones
People you or I encounter but don't care about

Please, please, and I mean this, take off the blinkers for a moment and just re read what you posted there.

Masks in all outdoor areas? No problem wearing them in enclosed indoor spaces with high densities of people, I did so the last few nights in my local centra.
Outdoors if you’re hypothetically in future at a concert or football stadium or something maybe.

But the idea that we should wear them outdoors while walking around, on the beach, in Phoenix park etc?

Please cop on. I don’t care what they’re at in certain other areas. We don’t have any of our highest populated urban areas like Times Square or Tokyo, which you would rightly have to wear them.

robinph

CBear1993 wrote: »

Please, please, and I mean this, take off the blinkers for a moment and just re read what you posted there.

Masks in all outdoor areas? No problem wearing them in enclosed indoor spaces with high densities of people, I did so the last few nights in my local centra.
Outdoors if you’re hypothetically in future at a concert or football stadium or something maybe.

But the idea that we should wear them outdoors while walking around, on the beach, in Phoenix park etc?

Please cop on. I don’t care what they’re at in certain other areas. We don’t have any of our highest populated urban areas like Times Square or Tokyo, which you would rightly have to wear them.

Think you want this thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058066011

CBear1993

Akrasia wrote: »

It’s a public health measure. You might as well be on here saying you know you should wash your hands after wiping your arse but don’t feel like it.

People, understandably don’t want to get your sh1t on their hands when opening doors or touching railings

The app isn’t for your own good, it’s for the public good, especially if you’re going to be flying off to known hotspots where you are increasing the risk of bringing the infection back home with you

Nope now you’re putting words in my mouth. Typical of the brigade who wants everyone to do what they say to make them feel better.
I had loads of hand sanitizer before this thing even hit the ground in Ireland, stocked up on it, use it daily.
You know what else is a common public health measure in normal times? Sneezing into a tissue or what is now your elbow, but we don’t wear masks for it.

You’d think half of you had hard factual evidence for the tracing app and masks as if we’ve been doing it for a year minimum now, but none of you do. Any muppet can watch the news every evening or see what drivel they’re spewing out of the indo or the journal each day.

Go ahead and wear your masks everywhere, they already do it in some
Parts of Asia all the time from what I see, just don’t expect the whole of Ireland to do it with you because you’re feeling self righteous.

To be fair, I would expect nothing less from some blind pigs than a grunt.

“Known hotspots!” Ha! Oh right sorry there doctor, didn’t realize you were updating the case and death count daily, I retract all that I’ve said.
Another assumption. So because neither of those destinations are on our excuse of a governments’ green list they’re hotspots? Ahh.... you’ve just confirmed to me you can’t think for yourself.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Think you want this thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058066011

Scratch that, try here instead:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

CBear1993

If you’re trying to be funny Batman I’m not sure where you’re pulling conspiracy theory from.

There’s none of my previous two posts at all that even remotely point to a conspiracy theory.

It is asking for factual evidence for both masks and Covid tracing app effectiveness.

Again as I previously said, when one side doesn’t like how things are going, they’ll label the other as whacky or conspiracy theorists.

Whatever about masks, why do you need hard evidence to prove a contact tracing app is useful? It's basic stuff about how this virus spreads.

plodder

CBear1993 wrote: »

Nope now you’re putting words in my mouth. Typical of the brigade who wants everyone to do what they say to make them feel better.
I had loads of hand sanitizer before this thing even hit the ground in Ireland, stocked up on it, use it daily.
You know what else is a common public health measure in normal times? Sneezing into a tissue or what is now your elbow, but we don’t wear masks for it.

You’d think half of you had hard factual evidence for the tracing app and masks as if we’ve been doing it for a year minimum now, but none of you do. Any muppet can watch the news every evening or see what drivel they’re spewing out of the indo or the journal each day.

Go ahead and wear your masks everywhere, they already do it in some
Parts of Asia all the time from what I see, just don’t expect the whole of Ireland to do it with you because you’re feeling self righteous.

To be fair, I would expect nothing less from some blind pigs than a grunt.

“Known hotspots!” Ha! Oh right sorry there doctor, didn’t realize you were updating the case and death count daily, I retract all that I’ve said.
Another assumption. So because neither of those destinations are on our excuse of a governments’ green list they’re hotspots? Ahh.... you’ve just confirmed to me you can’t think for yourself.

The two places you are going have higher infection rates than here.

Are you going to isolate for two weeks after the first trip and then another two weeks after the second?

CBear1993

plodder wrote: »

The two places you are going have higher infection rates than here.

Are you going to isolate for two weeks after the first trip and then another two weeks after the second?

I’m self employed so I’ll work away.

Are you going to report me? Please don’t. I’m breaking the law.... oh wait, I’m not, as there is none.

robinph

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever about masks, why do you need hard evidence to prove a contact tracing app is useful? It's basic stuff about how this virus spreads.

The same question should be asked of yourself in using the contact tracing app, and also masks.

Does it negatively impact you in anyway running the contact tracing app in the background on your phone?
Does it negatively impact you in anyway wearing a mask when out in public?

Is there a chance that by you doing so (using the app or wearing the mask) that you'll be able to prevent someone else from becoming infected if you happen to become infected without knowing it?

fly_agaric

KyussB wrote: »

That's whataboutery. Who said I'm not concerned about other privacy issues? Is this thread about the covid app, or is it about all other privacy issues including those unrelated to the app? Given that it's about the covid app, why would I discuss other unrelated privacy issues - rather than issues related to use of the app?

Fair enough.
I don't know your history (other than a few posts of yours I've read on here before in other threads besides this one), or if you've been caring very deeply about data privacy issues and arcana of bluetooth/RF security standards in the past (pre this thread).

Mainly, for me it is "whatabout" public health + trying to use all the tools we can (incl. these contact tracing applications) to control this virus.
I think we should give a reasonable rather than excessive regard to privacy + individualism and other great things about a fairly free Western society while we do that.

plodder

CBear1993 wrote: »

I’m self employed so I’ll work away.

I'll take that as No then

Are you going to report me? Please don’t. I’m breaking the law.... oh wait, I’m not, as there is none.

As if you'd obey it anyway if there was one :rolleyes:

CBear1993

plodder wrote: »

I'll take that as No then

As if you'd obey it anyway if there was one :rolleyes:

Happy now you got your point across. ?

I’m sure the internet vigilante will be proud of you taking a non existent law into your own hands to enforce it.

Good days work plodder

robinph

CBear1993 wrote: »

Happy now you got your point across. ?

We never did discover what your point was though for telling us that you are not making use of the app, other than you don't want to.

Do you have an actual justification that you'd like to share?

KyussB

fly_agaric wrote: »

Fair enough.
I don't know your history (other than a few posts of yours I've read on here before in other threads besides this one), or if you've been caring very deeply about data privacy issues and arcana of bluetooth/RF security standards in the past (pre this thread).

Mainly, for me it is "whatabout" public health + trying to use all the tools we can (incl. these contact tracing applications) to control this virus.
I think we should give a reasonable rather than excessive regard to privacy + individualism and other great things about a fairly free Western society while we do that.

I don't post on it much, but I do follow issues of civil liberties and privacy, and would take more care in that than most people - probably partly because my work gives me a good first hand view of just how exploitable most/all software/tech is.

I agree with civil-liberties/privacy infringing measures for combatting the coronavirus, up to a point - and I've been one of the more vocal critics of our governments handling of the coronavirus in the forum at times (I do not believe we have done a good job at all), that we have not gone far enough in many ways, that we have not mandated many things that we should have at the expense of civil liberties and for public health etc..

On the balance of all these varied things, the contact tracing apps get an extremely odd amount of focus/attention in my view. We aren't doing basic/obvious things like mandating masks at all times, shutting down the airports(!!!), mandatory quaranting of travelers that do come (basically 2-3 week involuntary quarantine as soon as someone steps off the plane is needed imo...), and other extremely obvious things that would crush the coronavirus to zero in short order, without the app.

Given the extremely obvious policy gaps, and how massive those gaps are - the amount of attention and shaming involved in trying to socially coerce people to use these apps, is bizarre altogether - and when that is coupled with the very real and legitimate privacy and civil liberties concerns with the implementation of the tech behind this form of contact tracing, it - on the balance - seems to have a very high risk of encoraching on civil liberties and privacy, without coming anywhere close to making up for the governments public health failures in having such lax policies/restrictions regarding the coronavirus.

It smacks of security theatre which will be ineffective in aiding public health compared to properly implemented coronavirus restrictions - and which actually makes peoples privacy and civil liberties less secure.

endacl

It's a no from me. The app won't run on my ancient hand-me-down iPhone 5.

I'll certainly use it if anybody hands me down a newer phone.

CBear1993

robinph wrote: »

We never did discover what your point was though for telling us that you are not making use of the app, other than you don't want to.

Do you have an actual justification that you'd like to share?

Yes I do but I’ll have to share it on the conspiracy theorist thread according to you, never addressed my previous post earlier calling you out on that.

So it’s the like for like here. Pick and choose when you want to intervene Batman? Congrats on getting self promoted to mod of this thread

robinph

CBear1993 wrote: »

Yes I do but I’ll have to share it on the conspiracy theorist thread according to you, never addressed my previous post earlier calling you out on that.

So it’s the like for like here. Pick and choose when you want to intervene Batman? Congrats on getting self promoted to mod of this thread

Or you could just tell us what the reason is for not running the app? You felt the need to join the thread to tell us that you wouldn't be using it, but then said nothing more than you couldn't be bothered.

greenspurs

jetsonx wrote: »

I know privacy is very important to people but I fear that drastic times call for drastic measures.

Let's say the Irish Government introduced a smartphone app tomorrow to prevent the spread of COVID-19. The app would record all your movements and triage the data against the movements of those infected with COVID-19. An app which could save thousands of lives.

Would you allow this app to be installed on your smartphone?


(The data would be solely used by health authorities)

That worked out well didn't it ?

fly_agaric

KyussB wrote: »

On the balance of all these varied things, the contact tracing apps get an extremely odd amount of focus/attention in my view. We aren't doing basic/obvious things like mandating masks at all times, shutting down the airports(!!!), mandatory quaranting of travelers that do come (basically 2-3 week involuntary quarantine as soon as someone steps off the plane is needed imo...), and other extremely obvious things that would crush the coronavirus to zero in short order, without the app.

On the masks, things seem to have improved alot and they are being mandated in some situations now.
I'd agree with you about travel + the voluntary system in place.
It is reckless and imo if they do try and open up everything in Sept. (schools, pubs, clubs, indoor events etc etc) while we are still importing cases we will see some more significant outbreaks.
Don't think we could go for eliminiation here unless we can get at least NI/maybe UK? on board with such a policy too.

KyussB wrote: »

Given the extremely obvious policy gaps, and how massive those gaps are - the amount of attention and shaming involved in trying to socially coerce people to use these apps, is bizarre altogether - and when that is coupled with the very real and legitimate privacy and civil liberties concerns with the implementation of the tech behind this form of contact tracing, it - on the balance - seems to have a very high risk of encoraching on civil liberties and privacy, without coming anywhere close to making up for the governments public health failures in having such lax policies/restrictions regarding the coronavirus.

To me it does not follow that because govt. won't grasp the nettle on inward travel there is no point in the application.
Indeed if such applications do work well in practice, the outcome will be to trace the nodes in the new clusters involving users very quickly. We will have more such clusters sparked off with lax restrictions on inward travel from the rest of the world (virus is out of control in many countries/regions).
I haven't seen any shaming or social coercion, certainly not from the government or HSE. People have been encouraged to install it + use it if they can.

KyussB wrote: »

It smacks of security theatre which will be ineffective in aiding public health compared to properly implemented coronavirus restrictions - and which actually makes peoples privacy and civil liberties less secure.

We disagree about balance I suppose. You give too much weight to privacy, not enough to public health. Even the defenders of our privacy have had to recognise that a good job was done on the application and the criticisms are long standing ones about Google/Apple and their mobile OSes collecting information on the users of their services. As I posted above, being reaslistic iOS and Android are the parks our governments must play in to try this technology and Google/Apple hold the keys.
The applications may or may not work as expected (I can't see why they should not if there is a large user base with the application on their phones).
This is an unprecedentated situation, and new ideas and technologies have to be tried. I don't think that is theatre.
Afair South Korea is a democracy using highly data driven/technological approaches very successfully.
Of course they have weighted personal privacy far lower against the public health than Europe is willing to, and are using much more invasive techniques than anonymised proximity detection via bluetooth.

KyussB

The app will help, certainly - it just won't make up for neglectful government policy, and it's a threat to civil liberties and privacy that would not be considered had our government not been so neglectful.

I don't agree that defenders of privacy and civil liberties have given such apps credit - there is continuous rolling scrutiny/criticism, which is getting more severe now - and the app makers can't hide behind Google/Apple culpability - the app makers have chosen to use the Exposure API, and governments have more than enough regulatory clout to force these companies to alter these API's for privacy sake, where apps do not have the necessary technical access to implement an alternative. Major civil liberties institutions are heavily skeptical of these apps.

SE Asian countries have done well with the coronavirus through use of policies that our government has neglected, in my view - the policies I mentioned previously being prominent.

ACitizenErased

KyussB wrote: »

The app will help, certainly - it just won't make up for neglectful government policy, and it's a threat to civil liberties and privacy that would not be considered had our government not been so neglectful.

I don't agree that defenders of privacy and civil liberties have given such apps credit - there is continuous rolling scrutiny/criticism, which is getting more severe now - and the app makers can't hide behind Google/Apple culpability - the app makers have chosen to use the Exposure API, and governments have more than enough regulatory clout to force these companies to alter these API's for privacy sake, where apps do not have the necessary technical access to implement an alternative. Major civil liberties institutions are heavily skeptical of these apps.

SE Asian countries have done well with the coronavirus through use of policies that our government has neglected, in my view - the policies I mentioned previously being prominent.

You still on about this app? Christ, it's already being used to save lives. If ya don't want to use it, don't use it.

KyussB

Ya we're in a thread about the app, did you notice?

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

The app will help, certainly - it just won't make up for neglectful government policy, and it's a threat to civil liberties and privacy that would not be considered had our government not been so neglectful.

You say government policy is 'neglectful' because policy is not to forcibly quarantine people who travel from abroad, yet you have a problem with this app, which is the absolute mildest of impositions.

A friend of mine is based in Singapore and he described the situation there where incoming visitors are put in a hotel room (at their own expense) and literally not allowed out of it for two weeks. Two weeks is the length of the average family's annual holiday. Can you imagine spending all of that time in a few square meters space?

How can using a covid app on your phone be more of an imposition than that?

KyussB

It's precisely that you think an app replaces forced quarantines which is what makes it security theatre - it's exactly that kind of thinking which does more harm than good, because the actual effective policies at stopping/preventing the coronavirus (like forced quarantines) get replaced with an app which is never going to be as effective - and can only primarily be effective in a reactive way, in an environment where prevention of new originating cases is neglected.

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

It's precisely that you think an app replaces forced quarantines which is what makes it security theatre - it's exactly that kind of thinking which does more harm than good, because the actual effective policies at stopping/preventing the coronavirus (like forced quarantines) get replaced with an app which is never going to be as effective - and can only primarily be effective in a reactive way, in an environment where prevention of new originating cases is neglected.

You are the one saying that the app "replaces" what you call effective measures. I never said that. I was just comparing how intrusive the measures are and how strange it is to be arguing that using this app "is a threat to civil liberties" but a forced quarantine isn't.

The reason why we don't have a forced quarantine has nothing to do with the app. It's partly due to the land border with NI and the fact it wouldn't work unless NI imposed the same policy with the rest of the world (including GB) which is never going to happen.

ExMachina1000

robinph wrote: »

Which is fine then as the Irish government doesn't get any data from the contact tracing app, other than your phone number if you test positive and agree to give it to them.

I would prefer not to give them anything.

KyussB

plodder wrote: »

You are the one saying that the app "replaces" what you call effective measures. I never said that. I was just comparing how intrusive the measures are and how strange it is to be arguing that using this app "is a threat to civil liberties" but a forced quarantine isn't.

The reason why we don't have a forced quarantine has nothing to do with the app. It's partly due to the land border with NI and the fact it wouldn't work unless NI imposed the same policy with the rest of the world (including GB) which is never going to happen.

I didn't say it 'replaces' known/proven effective measures. I never argued that a forced quarantine doesn't impinge on civil liberties.

Forced quarantine is necessary anyway, because it is effective, it stops new originating cases at the source - and NI/UK does not stop us implementing forced quarantine from points of entry that we control, which is what we need to do.

That's a civil liberties tradeoff that we need to make - contact tracing apps or not - and combined with other necesarry policies that have been neglected, makes the civil liberties and privacy costs/risks of contact tracing apps, a lot less worth putting up with - as we'd be preventatively stopping cases at their point of origin, not reactively through chasing up contacts.