Will you download the contact tracing app?

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern

Happens on my phone, and it's easy to find loads of people who've experienced the same nag screen online with a short Google. Location accuracy can be disabled, but it will nag every time location is turned on.

:rolleyes: the fact it doesn't happen on stock Android 10 kind of blows your theory that it was a deliberate design decision though ..

Sometimes these UI annoyances are just bugs and they aren't out to get you(r data) :cool:

KyussB

Changing the design in a more recent OS, doesn't mean the original design was not deliberate.

A bug which leads to a dark pattern, where users are tricked into sharing valuable data, sounds a lot like a feature to me... (and relevant to this thread, due to how that interacts with use of the covid app - like the NYT article describes)

Google are specifically cited as well known users of such dark patterns after all. Why would anyone give them benefit of the doubt? Sure even you say they are invasive in the amount of data they collect...

robinph

Despite you continuing to claim that you are talking about the app, every single point you are making is nothing to do with the app. It's the OS that you have a problem with, which is great that people are finding these holes, but it's still go nothing to do with the app.

tfeldi

eeepaulo wrote: »

I had the same, by phones battery optimizer was turning it off.

Im on android 9

Settings - battery - app launch set the covid app to manual, all three boxes checked.

Settings - apps - apps - three dots top right - special access - battery optimisation -change drop down to all apps - set covid app to dont allow

I've been trying to get this sorted but it still doesn't work - meaning that the app still says that it is inactive when I open it and it needs a few seconds to wake up. Also, when I go into Exposure notifications under Settings, there are a good few days without any entry.

On the above instructions, my Android version doesn't have the first set of instructions (app launch). I did the second set but didn't make a difference.

To me, this all sounds very much identical to the issues reported in Germany at the moment with their app:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/android-glitch-hobbles-german-covid-19-app-1.4312890

To be clear, I'm not blaming the app. It is probably an Android or user issue or so. However, it is an issue that I believe more people are affected by and that is reducing the efficiency of the app. I spend at least 2 - 3 hours trying to research / resolve the issue. The idea of the app is that you install it and you are pretty much done with it.

KyussB

robinph wrote: »

Despite you continuing to claim that you are talking about the app, every single point you are making is nothing to do with the app. It's the OS that you have a problem with, which is great that people are finding these holes, but it's still go nothing to do with the app.

Are you a mod on this subforum, who gets to decide what is and isn't related to the app?

This is absolutely relevant to the app - which is why there are news articles like this explicitly discussing the issue in relation to contact tracing apps:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/technology/google-covid-tracker-app.html

You trying to police the thread wastes space with me having to reply to that nonsense.

robinph

KyussB wrote: »

Are you a mod on this subforum, who gets to decide what is and isn't related to the app?

This is absolutely relevant to the app - which is why there are news articles like this explicitly discussing the issue in relation to contact tracing apps:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/technology/google-covid-tracker-app.html

You trying to police the thread wastes space with me having to reply to that nonsense.

No idea what that article says as it's behind a pay wall so can only go on the headline.

But what is Google collecting by virtue of people using the app that they are not collecting already from people who are not using the app?

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

Changing the design in a more recent OS, doesn't mean the original design was not deliberate.

That's a step back from your original claim that:

This is an actual 'dark pattern' UI design, that tries to nag people into turning it on - with no option to disable it forever without nagging.

An actual dark pattern no less.

The truth is you don't know that. Classic confirmation bias because "dark patterns" are what you are looking for.

Even if it was deliberate design, it's some stretch what you are saying about it, particularly since they just fixed it without any fanfare.

KyussB

There's no step back in that - you're presenting an eventual change in design, as meaning the original design was not deliberate - when that does not logically follow.
You're selectively quoting my post there, leaving out the bolded bits which already deals with much of your post:

KyussB wrote: »

Changing the design in a more recent OS, doesn't mean the original design was not deliberate.

A bug which leads to a dark pattern, where users are tricked into sharing valuable data, sounds a lot like a feature to me... (and relevant to this thread, due to how that interacts with use of the covid app - like the NYT article describes)

Google are specifically cited as well known users of such dark patterns after all. Why would anyone give them benefit of the doubt? Sure even you say they are invasive in the amount of data they collect...

If you personally want to give them benefit of the doubt, that's up to you - but they have more than enough of a bad track record for exactly these sorts of deceptive practices, to justify other people being cynical towards them - they have earned that cynicism.

Searching shows that the issue of the nagging location accuracy popup has existed since at least 2013 - being around at least half a decade before being fixed - something that is definitely a deliberate 'feature', not a bug...

hmmm

There are people asking questions in this thread about the actual app, could this paranoid ****e about "dark patterns" be taken somewhere else?

plodder

KyussB wrote: »

There's no step back in that - you're presenting an eventual change in design, as meaning the original design was not deliberate - when that does not logically follow.

No, you are insisting it is a "dark pattern" (What a stupid term anyway) and that does not follow as it could be and is much more likely to be a bug, since they voluntarily fixed it and any references I can find to it online refer to it as being this incredibly annoying thing that is obviously a bug, rather than something deceptive as you are claiming. This doesn't even fit the online definition you quoted earlier of people being tricked into doing something.

If you personally want to give them benefit of the doubt, that's up to you - but they have more than enough of a bad track record for exactly these sorts of deceptive practices, to justify other people being cynical towards them - they have earned that cynicism.

Searching shows that the issue of the nagging location accuracy popup has existed since at least 2013 - being around at least half a decade before being fixed - something that is definitely a deliberate 'feature', not a bug...

As for bugs only being fixed in four or five years. There is nothing unusual about that. If it only affects a relatively small number of people especially. Trust me, I have bugs in the product I work in that are a lot older than 2013 and probably will never be fixed.

You are adding one plus one and getting six and a half with this.

We've done this one to death now. So, have the last word if you want.

FutureTeashock

After all the fanfare upon its release, the downloads have stalled. And now there is an online twitter campaign to delete the app following the scandalous handling of data by the government in relation to PUP payments.

https://twitter.com/search?q=delete%20the%20covid%20app&src=typed_query


Nice to see people waking up to what the app is really about, albeit no one should have downloaded it in the first place.

wonski

FutureTeashock wrote: »

After all the fanfare upon its release, the downloads have stalled. And now there is an online twitter campaign to delete the app following the scandalous handling of data by the government in relation to PUP payments.

https://twitter.com/search?q=delete%20the%20covid%20app&src=typed_query


Nice to see people waking up to what the app is really about, albeit no one should have downloaded it in the first place.

Please explain, because the fact there is a twitter campaigns means it must be serious

KyussB

plodder wrote: »

No, you are insisting it is a "dark pattern" (What a stupid term anyway) and that does not follow as it could be and is much more likely to be a bug, since they voluntarily fixed it and any references I can find to it online refer to it as being this incredibly annoying thing that is obviously a bug, rather than something deceptive as you are claiming. This doesn't even fit the online definition you quoted earlier of people being tricked into doing something.

As for bugs only being fixed in four or five years. There is nothing unusual about that. If it only affects a relatively small number of people especially. Trust me, I have bugs in the product I work in that are a lot older than 2013 and probably will never be fixed.

You are adding one plus one and getting six and a half with this.

We've done this one to death now. So, have the last word if you want.

It absolutely does fit the pattern - and it is even specifically referenced in research about dark patterns - proving that this is considered a dark pattern by experts in that field:

Nagging
We define nagging as a minor redirection of expected function-ality that may persist over one or more interactions. Nagging often manifests as a repeated intrusion during normal interac-tion, where the user’s desired task is interrupted one or more times by other tasks not directly related to the one the user is focusing on. Nagging behaviors may include pop-ups that ob-scure the interface, audio notices that distract the user, or other actions that obstruct or otherwise redirect the user’s focus.

We found varying levels of nagging behavior in our corpus, at varying levels of potential malice. One such example from the social media app Instagram includes a modal selection where the user is prompted with a message asking them to turn on notifications for the app (Figure 2). Only two options
are present, "Not Now" and "OK," which gives the user no ability to discontinue the prompts. Another, more sinister, in-terruption relates to Google’s location services. This instance asks the user to allow Google to collect anonymous location data at any time, even when apps are not running. There are two options, "Agree" and "Disagree" to select, and a substan-tially smaller "Don’t show again" check-box. This example provides similar options as the previous example, but does so in a manner that entices users to agree if they want the nagging to cease.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322916969_The_Dark_Patterns_Side_of_UX_Design

This is a dark pattern which has existed for more than half a decade, to the point that it is a defining example of a dark pattern in research...In my case, there isn't even the "don't show again" box to get rid of it - making it even worse than what that research cites.

Please, we both know you're going to continue trying to downplay this - especially now that I've even be able to prove it with research from experts in the relevant field...

Again, to anchor the relevance of this to the thread, covid apps are specifically coming under focus due to the above OS feature, because it undermines the privacy claims being made about the Exposure API that covid apps use:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/technology/google-covid-tracker-app.html

robinph

KyussB wrote: »

... due to the above OS feature...

So nothing to do with the Covid19 app then.




Oh, for the days when you were telling us about how nobody used Fitbits or Apple ear pods and so nobody would have used Bluetooth on their phone until the covid app came out.

plodder

wonski wrote: »

Please explain, because the fact there is a twitter campaigns means it must be serious

I suppose it's a known thing that some people will vote against constitutional amendments just to give the government a kicking and whether or not the proposal makes any sense.

So, it's not that surprising that somebody might start a campaign against this because they perceive it as something the government wants you to do and they are annoyed about something else that they blame the government for.

All you can do is hope that there aren't too many dim witted types that want to harm their friends and neighbours, and see this pandemic prolonged as much as possible.

KyussB

robinph wrote: »

So nothing to do with the Covid19 app then.




Oh, for the days when you were telling us about how nobody used Fitbits or Apple ear pods and so nobody would have used Bluetooth on their phone until the covid app came out.

Don't quote-mine me, where you leave out everything other than the bolded part here - all from the same sentence! - where the relevancy to the coronavirus app is explained directly:

Again, to anchor the relevance of this to the thread, covid apps are specifically coming under focus due to the above OS feature, because it undermines the privacy claims being made about the Exposure API that covid apps use:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/t...acker-app.html

You're fully aware that what you are doing is shit-stirring that creates an explosion of off-topic posts - and you have the gall to try and police this thread and what is on/off topic, while routinely lying about what posters have said (the second half of your post I also did not say at all)...

You shouldn't be a mod on Boards, when you pull that kind of bullshit routinely. I deliberately try to not interact with you, yet the majority of my replies to you are correcting deliberate misrepresentations and lies about my posts - stuff that forces me to interact with you, to correct that.

kippy

FutureTeashock wrote: »

After all the fanfare upon its release, the downloads have stalled. And now there is an online twitter campaign to delete the app following the scandalous handling of data by the government in relation to PUP payments.

https://twitter.com/search?q=delete%20the%20covid%20app&src=typed_query


Nice to see people waking up to what the app is really about, albeit no one should have downloaded it in the first place.

The app has absolutely nothing to do with fraud prevention.

thelad95

FutureTeashock wrote: »

After all the fanfare upon its release, the downloads have stalled. And now there is an online twitter campaign to delete the app following the scandalous handling of data by the government in relation to PUP payments.

https://twitter.com/search?q=delete%20the%20covid%20app&src=typed_query


Nice to see people waking up to what the app is really about, albeit no one should have downloaded it in the first place.

What has the app possibly got to do with the stopping of PUP payments?

robinph

KyussB wrote: »

I deliberately try to not interact with you, yet the majority of my replies to you are correcting deliberate misrepresentations and lies about my posts - stuff that forces me to interact with you, to correct that.

You've not corrected anything. All you are doing is repeating comments about OS issues and then trying to somehow claim that it's to do with the Covid app.

KyussB

Take it up with all of the newspapers, civil rights and privacy organizations etc. etc. who state these are issues in the context of covid apps.

FutureTeashock

plodder wrote: »

I suppose it's a known thing that some people will vote against constitutional amendments just to give the government a kicking and whether or not the proposal makes any sense.

So, it's not that surprising that somebody might start a campaign against this because they perceive it as something the government wants you to do and they are annoyed about something else that they blame the government for.

All you can do is hope that there aren't too many dim witted types that want to harm their friends and neighbours, and see this pandemic prolonged as much as possible.

These tracking apps have flopped badly in every country they were introduced.

They offer no protection against a virus. In fact, they would lull some people into a false sense of security and have negative effects in that regard.

This Big Brother tech is doomed, and I'm delighted about that.

El Weirdo

FutureTeashock wrote: »

These tracking apps have flopped badly in every country they were introduced.

They offer no protection against a virus. In fact, they would lull some people into a false sense of security and have negative effects in that regard.

This Big Brother tech is doomed, and I'm delighted about that.

Who exactly is claiming that the app protects you from the virus?

FutureTeashock

El Weirdo wrote: »

Who exactly is claiming that the app protects you from the virus?

If the app does nothing to protect you from Covid, why would you download it?

The people downloading this crap think it will help them "stay safe", which is bollocks of course.

Stark

I have the app so if I do get infected I have a chance to self isolate before potentially spreading it to people I care about. Because I have people I care about other than myself. If you're one of the people who still asks "what's in it for me?" then you're probably not worth trying to convince.

robinph

FutureTeashock wrote: »

These tracking apps have flopped badly in every country they were introduced.

They offer no protection against a virus. In fact, they would lull some people into a false sense of security and have negative effects in that regard.

This Big Brother tech is doomed, and I'm delighted about that.

Not flopped badly in every country. Nearly 1.5 million users in Ireland and 15 million in Germany from the ones I've recently looked at.

They are not claiming to protect you from anything. They are purely to protect the population as a whole from widespread infection getting out of control before they can manually trace it.

It's not Big Brother and isn't tracking you in anyway that the government can make use of. The only data they get from you is your phone number if you test positive and if you give it to them.

Next...

El Weirdo

FutureTeashock wrote: »

If the app does nothing to protect you from Covid, why would you download it?

The people downloading this crap think it will help them "stay safe", which is bollocks of course.

I bet you also wonder how spending €9 on a meal in the pub prevents you from getting the virus.

FutureTeashock

robinph wrote: »

Not flopped badly in every country. Nearly 1.5 million users in Ireland and 15 million in Germany from the ones I've recently looked at.

They are not claiming to protect you from anything. They are purely to protect the population as a whole from widespread infection getting out of control before they can manually trace it.

It's not Big Brother and isn't tracking you in anyway that the government can make use of. The only data they get from you is your phone number if you test positive and if you give it to them.

Next...

No next!

Simon Harris said 60% of the population need to use the app for it to be effective.

1.5 and 15 million sounds impressive if you don't understand basic maths, but it's a massive failure in reality.

lertsnim

FutureTeashock wrote: »

The people downloading this crap think it will help them "stay safe", which is bollocks of course.

I've not met anyone who thought the app would act as some kind of barrier against a virus.

jimmycrackcorm

KyussB wrote: »

It absolutely does fit the pattern - and it is even specifically referenced in research about dark patterns - proving that this is considered a dark pattern by experts in that field:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322916969_The_Dark_Patterns_Side_of_UX_Design

This is a dark pattern which has existed for more than half a decade, to the point that it is a defining example of a dark pattern in research...In my case, there isn't even the "don't show again" box to get rid of it - making it even worse than what that research cites.

Please, we both know you're going to continue trying to downplay this - especially now that I've even be able to prove it with research from experts in the relevant field...

Again, to anchor the relevance of this to the thread, covid apps are specifically coming under focus due to the above OS feature, because it undermines the privacy claims being made about the Exposure API that covid apps use:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/20/technology/google-covid-tracker-app.html

I'm sure if you were posting in the craft beer forums, you'd be pointing arguments about dark yeasts. And other people would be telling you there are yeasts in all beers.

FutureTeashock

60% of Irish people will never download this app so, by the former health minister's own admission, this app WILL fail.

Does anyone disagree with the above statement?:D