Off Topic Thread 5.0

Stheno

Is anyone else enjoying Keir Starmer making mincemeat of BoJo?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/13/pmqs-keir-starmer-presses-boris-johnson-over-care-home-deaths

prawnsambo

Stheno wrote: »

Is anyone else enjoying Keir Starmer making mincemeat of BoJo?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/13/pmqs-keir-starmer-presses-boris-johnson-over-care-home-deaths

He's probably the closest thing you could get to an anti-BoJo. No waffle, no bullsh1t and forensic in how he drills down. Jacob Rees-Mogg was calling for parliament to resume normally - so that they could all shout him down, but that looks like it's been nipped in the bud. Of course Johnson could just bravely run away, he's got form for that.

vienne86

So that pair of so-called former journalists had their case flung out this morning.......but of course they'll appeal. What a shocking waste of resources.

Bridge93

There’s a very Europe circa 1930 feel to America at the minute and it’s hard to see how that corrects itself without something quite major happening. They’re too far gone. Sadly my view is as a society it is broken and it’s going to take something rather large and tragic to essentially hit the restart button. Pick up the pieces and build again.
Europe is far from perfect and faces it’s own social threats at the minute but the US is genuinely a horrifying place. I knew they always had a few problems but the last 4 years has been another level. So much for the election of Obama being the beginning of new America

Dog Botherer

I think a sizable chunk of the so-called “Bernie Bro’s” are actually disaffected Democrats who have lost any faith in the Democratic Party to enact meaningful change (and when you look at the Triumvirate of **** that is Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer, who could blame them?). My wife is a “Bernie Bro”, and lifelong Dem, who won’t be voting for either accused rapist in November, and it would probably take a significant ideological shift in the party to bring her back into the fold.

I think it is also notable that the only thing of note Obama has done since his retirement is rally the 2020 field of candidates behind Biden to crush Bernie.

Anyway, Bernie supporters will not decide this election. There is almost certainly going to be massive issues with voter fraud, most Republican governors will try to limit mail in voting as much as possible, using the coronavirus to massively reduce voter turnout. And if there are any kind of irregularities i would be absolutely shocked if Trump didn’t just declare himself the winner to little meaningful opposition from anyone with political power, much like Bush and Gore 20 years ago.

It’s all very depressing.

ClanofLams

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I think a sizable chunk of the so-called “Bernie Bro’s” are actually disaffected Democrats who have lost any faith in the Democratic Party to enact meaningful change (and when you look at the Triumvirate of **** that is Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer, who could blame them?). My wife is a “Bernie Bro”, and lifelong Dem, who won’t be voting for either accused rapist in November, and it would probably take a significant ideological shift in the party to bring her back into the fold.

I think it is also notable that the only thing of note Obama has done since his retirement is rally the 2020 field of candidates behind Biden to crush Bernie.

Anyway, Bernie supporters will not decide this election. There is almost certainly going to be massive issues with voter fraud, most Republican governors will try to limit mail in voting as much as possible, using the coronavirus to massively reduce voter turnout. And if there are any kind of irregularities i would be absolutely shocked if Trump didn’t just declare himself the winner to little meaningful opposition from anyone with political power, much like Bush and Gore 20 years ago.

It’s all very depressing.

There was progress under Obama with healthcare, financial regulation, immigration, climate change, etc. (Much of which has been rolled back under Trump)

Pelosi was, by all reports, instrumental to Obamacare passing. Having said that, some fresh blood would definitely be a good thing.

Referring to them both as alleged rapists is a bit of a false equivalence too, Biden has had two accusations (one of sexual assault) as far as I know, one (sexual assault) has been proven untrue as he wasn’t at the event where it was claimed to have happened. There’s a mountain of claims against Trump.

Not voting Biden seems incredibly irresponsible.

Bazzo

Looking at Biden and Trump and saying "they're just as bad as each other" is ****ing crazy. If the democrats decide not to turn out to vote they deserve their next 4 years of Trump, it's just an enormous shame he has to be inflicted on the rest of the planet too.

ClanofLams

Bazzo wrote: »

Looking at Biden and Trump and saying "they're just as bad as each other" is ****ing crazy. If the democrats decide not to turn out to vote they deserve their next 4 years of Trump, it's just an enormous shame he has to be inflicted on the rest of the planet too.

Yep and when some poor twenty year who has been in America 19 years and eight months get raided by ICE in eighteen months and sent back to a country they’ve never been to and maybe don’t speak the language (as has happened in recent years) those voting Green etc will be the ones going on twitter tirades about it.

Of course they won’t be the ones it happen to.

Dog Botherer

ClanofLams wrote: »

There was progress under Obama with healthcare, financial regulation, immigration, climate change, etc. (Much of which has been rolled back under Trump)

Pelosi was, by all reports, instrumental to Obamacare passing. Having said that, some fresh blood would definitely be a good thing.

Referring to them both as alleged rapists is a bit of a false equivalence too, Biden has had two accusations (one of sexual assault) as far as I know, one (sexual assault) has been proven untrue as he wasn’t at the event where it was claimed to have happened. There’s a mountain of claims against Trump.

Not voting Biden seems incredibly irresponsible.

It was incredibly limited progress given that the Democrats had complete control of all 3 houses of government for the first 2 years of Obama’s tenure. Obama could have passed universal healthcare and anything else he liked, made it absolutely ironclad to prevent the Republicans from pillaging it. Instead he passed Mitt Romney’s healthcare plan and didn’t prosecute a single Wall Street exec.

It’s not. Biden has 8 outstanding sexual harassment and assault claims against him. Just because Trump has more doesn’t change that.

Honestly, please, i would ask anyone who believes that Biden would be good for America or the world to take a moment to look into everything he has done before this election cycle. He whipped votes for the Iraq War for Bush ffs. He’s always prided himself on his conservative values. He’s as much of a monster as Trump, he just has better optics.

Dog Botherer

ClanofLams wrote: »

Yep and when some poor twenty year who has been in America 19 years and eight months get raided by ICE in eighteen months and sent back to a country they’ve never been to and maybe don’t speak the language (as has happened in recent years) those voting Green etc will be the ones going on twitter tirades about it.

Of course they won’t be the ones it happen to.

Obama’s nickname amongst Latino immigration activists was “Deporter In Chief”. C’mon.

ClanofLams

Dog Botherer wrote: »

It was incredibly limited progress given that the Democrats had complete control of all 3 houses of government for the first 2 years of Obama’s tenure. Obama could have passed universal healthcare and anything else he liked, made it absolutely ironclad to prevent the Republicans from pillaging it. Instead he passed Mitt Romney’s healthcare plan and didn’t prosecute a single Wall Street exec.

It’s not. Biden has 8 outstanding sexual harassment and assault claims against him. Just because Trump has more doesn’t change that.

Honestly, please, i would ask anyone who believes that Biden would be good for America or the world to take a moment to look into everything he has done before this election cycle. He whipped votes for the Iraq War for Bush ffs. He’s always prided himself on his conservative values. He’s as much of a monster as Trump, he just has better optics.

No Obama couldn’t have. Because he couldn’t get house/senate democrats from conservative areas to vote for everything he put forward. Obamacare is certainly not perfect but over twenty million more people got insurance because of it.

The nature of the American legislative system is always going to result in change slower than many would like. If it was president Sanders next year his ability to implement change would be very limited, Joe manchin and co aren’t just going to vote for whatever he says.

Dog Botherer

ClanofLams wrote: »

No Obama couldn’t have. Because he couldn’t get house/senate democrats from conservative areas to vote for everything he put forward. Obamacare is certainly not perfect but over twenty million more people got insurance because of it.

The nature of the American legislative system is always going to result in change slower than many would like. If it was president Sanders next year his ability to implement change would be very limited, Joe manchin and co aren’t just going to vote for whatever he says.

He absolutely had a mandate to. After 8 years of war, Katrina, and economic devastation, he was elected with overwhelming grassroots support to enact change and hope. Instead he did f all except protect bankers and pharmaceutical companies. Ask some of those 20 million who got insurance how good their insurance is. Many of them are junk plans which cover next to nothing or force people to pay massive sums before insurance even kicks in.

I actually don’t disagree with much of your second paragraph. A good 40-60% of elected Dems are Republicans in all but name.

Podge_irl

"Change" is not, fundamentally, a platform because ultimately across those who vote for change you will have very different view of what that means.

The President doesn't have a mandate to introduce legislation full stop

ClanofLams

Dog Botherer wrote: »

He absolutely had a mandate to. After 8 years of war, Katrina, and economic devastation, he was elected with overwhelming grassroots support to enact change and hope. Instead he did f all except protect bankers and pharmaceutical companies. Ask some of those 20 million who got insurance how good their insurance is. Many of them are junk plans which cover next to nothing or force people to pay massive sums before insurance even kicks in.

I actually don’t disagree with much of your second paragraph. A good 40-60% of elected Dems are Republicans in all but name.

Given how difficult getting Obamacare passed was, just scraping by in the house by a few votes where he lost about 15% of Democrat members, I don’t see how he could have gotten anything more radical passed with regard to Health.

Podge_irl

ClanofLams wrote: »

Given how difficult getting Obamacare passed was, just scraping by in the house by a few votes where he lost about 15% of Democrat members, I don’t see how he could have gotten anything more radical passed with regard to Health.

Democrats, by and large, seem(or at least in the past have seemed to be) a lot more concerned about at least giving the appearance that they care about political opinions other than their own and making efforts at compromise. An affliction that doesn't bother the Republicans.

Biden is a piss poor candidate but given the actual evidence of the last 4 years I don't know how anyone can repeat the mantra from 2016 of them each being as bad as the other.

Dog Botherer

Podge_irl wrote: »

"Change" is not, fundamentally, a platform because ultimately across those who vote for change you will have very different view of what that means.

The President doesn't have a mandate to introduce legislation full stop

Very true. Hasn’t stopped Trump though, has it?

ClanofLams wrote: »

Given how difficult getting Obamacare passed was, just scraping by in the house by a few votes where he lost about 15% of Democrat members, I don’t see how he could have gotten anything more radical passed with regard to Health.

Again, he could very easily have whipped his grassroots supporters and told them “hey, Congressman X doesn’t want you to have healthcare, don’t vote for him, vote for Candidate X who will”. He would have had those votes very quickly. If Bernie Sanders can do it, why couldn’t Obama?

I think the answer is fairly obvious really, he didn’t want to. Obama successfully rode the populist left wing wave and then killed it stone dead, leaving nothing to counteract the rise of the Tea Party and by extension Trumpism.

Podge_irl

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Very true. Hasn’t stopped Trump though, has it?

Trump hasn't really done much though. He has no observable agenda bar inserting himself as the greatest ever whatever into every situation. The greatest legislative achievement of his tenure has been tax cuts for rich people which is never much of a hard sell to Republicans.

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Again, he could very easily have whipped his grassroots supporters and told them “hey, Congressman X doesn’t want you to have healthcare, don’t vote for him, vote for Candidate X who will”. He would have had those votes very quickly. If Bernie Sanders can do it, why couldn’t Obama?

Sanders hasn't actually done anything though seeing as has never managed to make it into a position to enact anything. Obama would have struggled to do that as a candidate and had more important things to focus on (i.e. getting elected) and getting this done in the first 2 year term was always the most likely so that put campaigning for certain congressmen in the mid terms as too late.

There is no particularly large left wing (as we would describe it) grouping in the US. It is very much a niche view. The Tea Party itself basically arose as a counter to Obama as they (incorrectly and somewhat racistly) viewed him as radical.

Dog Botherer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Democrats, by and large, seem(or at least in the past have seemed to be) a lot more concerned about at least giving the appearance that they care about political opinions other than their own and making efforts at compromise. An affliction that doesn't bother the Republicans.

Biden is a piss poor candidate but given the actual evidence of the last 4 years I don't know how anyone can repeat the mantra from 2016 of them each being as bad as the other.

I think a real concern for a lot of people on the left is that a weak and ineffectual president like Biden is going to lead to a right wing reaction in the form of someone both competent and insane, like Tom Cotton, winning in 2024 and immediately declaring war on China and enacting pogroms*.

*only a slight exaggeration, seriously, look the guy up

ClanofLams

Dog Botherer wrote: »

It’s not. Biden has 8 outstanding sexual harassment and assault claims against him. Just because Trump has more doesn’t change that.

You’re right, there’s more than I realised.

www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-allegations

Aside from Tara Reade, whose story had changed dramatically, none are in the same ballpark as Trumps.

Dog Botherer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Trump hasn't really done much though. He has no observable agenda bar inserting himself as the greatest ever whatever into every situation. The greatest legislative achievement of his tenure has been tax cuts for rich people which is never much of a hard sell to Republicans.

He’s also rigged every level of the judiciary for decades to come, and set new levels of what a president can do with executive orders. It’s easy to lose track but he’s signed so many awful things that aren’t technically laws but his administration are more than happy to enforce them as if they are. Remember the travel bans?

ClanofLams

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Very true. Hasn’t stopped Trump though, has it?



Again, he could very easily have whipped his grassroots supporters and told them “hey, Congressman X doesn’t want you to have healthcare, don’t vote for him, vote for Candidate X who will”. He would have had those votes very quickly. If Bernie Sanders can do it, why couldn’t Obama?

I think the answer is fairly obvious really, he didn’t want to. Obama successfully rode the populist left wing wave and then killed it stone dead, leaving nothing to counteract the rise of the Tea Party and by extension Trumpism.

I doubt it. Those elected are normally fairly in tune with their district, despite the odd primary success in recent years. Those voting for the likes of Joe Manchin in West Virginia and similar in the house don’t want Medicare for all etc.

You threaten them, you can make life hard for them sure but they will just refuse to work with you on anything. Even if a primary is successful the left wing candidate who wins will lose in the general.

Podge_irl

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I think a real concern for a lot of people on the left is that a weak and ineffectual president like Biden is going to lead to a right wing reaction in the form of someone both competent and insane, like Tom Cotton, winning in 2024 and immediately declaring war on China and enacting pogroms*.

*only a slight exaggeration, seriously, look the guy up

Yeah, I think he is a poor candidate and I have heard and understand those concerns. But I think its more likely he is a quietly efficient president who doesn't really hog the spotlight in the unhealthy way Trump does.

Ultimately, who knows. But risking 4 more years of Trump now rather than some unknown probability of someone potentially worse in 4 years seems like poor risk judgement to me.

Dog Botherer

ClanofLams wrote: »

You’re right, there’s more than I realised.

www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-allegations

Aside from Tara Reade, whose story had changed dramatically, none are in the same ballpark as Trumps.

Wrong, her story has not changed. That’s a talking point pushed by those close to the Biden campaign to distract from the steady stream of corroborating evidence that’s been coming out.

ClanofLams

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yeah, I think he is a poor candidate and I have heard and understand those concerns. But I think its more likely he is a quietly efficient president who doesn't really hog the spotlight in the unhealthy way Trump does.

Ultimately, who knows. But risking 4 more years of Trump now rather than some unknown probability of someone potentially worse in 4 years seems like poor risk judgement to me.

It’s also about who the president will surround themselves with. Biden will likely appoint at least half sane cabinet members, judges, etc

Trump surrounds himself with lunatics and appoints same.

pickarooney

sydthebeat wrote: »

im going to do a sweeping generalisation here, but america is a society that openly shuns intelligence and embraces ignorance.

In this post twitter world, facts are made of dust..... reality depends on the viewpoint of the observer... the emptiest of vessels make the most noise and american children are thought that popularity is status and therefore to be admired and adored.

when trump is called out on his lies and ignorance he simply ignores it, and there is literally no one to call him to account. No one would have the balls to enact the 25th amendment on him.... and even then would america want that brown noser pence as acting president?

In the olden days they'd just have assassinated him already. Why did they stop doing that?

Podge_irl

Dog Botherer wrote: »

He’s also rigged every level of the judiciary for decades to come, and set new levels of what a president can do with executive orders. It’s easy to lose track but he’s signed so many awful things that aren’t technically laws but his administration are more than happy to enforce them as if they are. Remember the travel bans?

I think rigging is probably the wrong word - its all perfectly legal its just a stupid system. This is another function of the Repubs in general being far more willing to play dirty.

Obama already set a record for executive orders. Sure Trump has beaten it and the context is different (congress basically refused to pass anything for Obama, whereas Trump is simply impulsive) but exec orders can also be undone with the stroke of a pen.

The ACA was a mammoth and complicated piece of legislation. The likes of which Trump couldn't hope to pass in million years. They shouldn't have bothered involving Republican legislators in the process in the end considering it turns out they were never going to get a single vote for it but Trump has managed nothing as legislatively far reaching.

Dog Botherer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yeah, I think he is a poor candidate and I have heard and understand those concerns. But I think its more likely he is a quietly efficient president who doesn't really hog the spotlight in the unhealthy way Trump does.

Ultimately, who knows. But risking 4 more years of Trump now rather than some unknown probability of someone potentially worse in 4 years seems like poor risk judgement to me.

I’m not trying to be flippant but i’d have an easier time believing Biden would be quietly competent if he wasn’t obviously mentally unwell.

Trust me, i hate Trump and want him gone. I just think that Joe “Nothing Will Fundamentally Change” Biden is not the answer. How could you not want to change the circumstances that brought forth Trump? It’s madness.

Podge_irl

Dog Botherer wrote: »

How could you not want to change the circumstances that brought forth Trump? It’s madness.

It's not an option on the table.

For whatever its worth I would have preferred Warren. I think Sanders would have been hopelessly ineffective because ultimately he is not a Democrat and he doesn't seem to realise he needs to get other people on board with his view and he wouldn't actually rule by dictat and fiat.

ClanofLams

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I’m not trying to be flippant but i’d have an easier time believing Biden would be quietly competent if he wasn’t obviously mentally unwell.

.

What are you basing this on? Biden has never been a strong public speaker and has put his foot in his mouth on a regular basis for forty years.

Dog Botherer

pickarooney wrote: »

In the olden days they'd just have assassinated him already. Why did they stop doing that?

Because he doesn’t really threaten anyone with money and power in this country.

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think rigging is probably the wrong word - its all perfectly legal its just a stupid system. This is another function of the Repubs in general being far more willing to play dirty.

Obama already set a record for executive orders. Sure Trump has beaten it and the context is different (congress basically refused to pass anything for Obama, whereas Trump is simply impulsive) but exec orders can also be undone with the stroke of a pen.

The ACA was a mammoth and complicated piece of legislation. The likes of which Trump couldn't hope to pass in million years. They shouldn't have bothered involving Republican legislators in the process in the end considering it turns out they were never going to get a single vote for it but Trump has managed nothing as legislatively far reaching.

Just because legislation is complicated doesn’t mean it is good. This is something else the Democrats struggle with, and it’s very much a neoliberal problem in that they have to wrap everything in so many layers of complexity that ultimately little is achieved, while eschewing simpler, more populist messages like “Medicare For All”. Whether that is intentional or simple incompetence it’s hard to say.