Off Topic Thread 5.0

sydthebeat

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Obama created the refugee crisis by destabilising Libya and sponsoring terrorists in Syria to try to topple al-Assad.

He also effectively created IS by pulling out of Iraq too fast.

wow thats some level of revisionism there.

Islamic State emerged out of Al Queda (it was a splinter group) in response to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003... 8 years before Obama.
ISIS as a grouping within Al Queda has existed since 1999.

Obama has always admitted that the failure to plan for the aftermath of gaddafi's death was his biggest mistake, however its not as if Libya was a bastion of peaceful enterprise before obama had any influence. lets not forget that Gaddafi was killed by his own countrymen, not an american mission strike.

whats happening in Syria is civil war... born from the Arab spring of 2011....which would have happened regardless of any intervention from the US or the UN. In fact the stick widely used to beat Obama with in regards to syria is the LACK of intervention and influence in the region. Remember Assad fired chemical weapons on his own people and Obama reneged on his previous promise to match fire with fire.

Obama made many mistakes in his presidency and was in no way a "peaceful"president... but some of that revisionism (the last line especially) is straight from the Donald Trump play book and should be called out for the untruth it is.

Neil3030

Before this place gets swallowed whole by the Qanon contingent, I would like to wish everyone a very happy Fat Bear Tuesday!

The final matchup pits the two biggest boys in Katmai against each other - 747 vs Chunk. Chunk went on an absolute rampage and steamrolled (possibly literally) last year's champ, Holly, in addition to the very popular Grazer (more on her some other time).



These two boys have history. It's not all about the salmon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2XPPB_-7_E

While Chunk had a solid innings, 747 has lost at least two finals, and I feel this really should be the year of the people's champ, aka Bear Force One.

But you can vote for your favourite here: https://t.co/NvXCYNigTJ?amp=1

winner declared at 7pm ADT.

BTW - whoever updates the Katmai Twitter feed is my spirit animal:

KatmaiNPS wrote:

Today’s the day we will crown 2020’s Fat Bear Week Champion. Where 747’s sedulous quest for salmon secured him a stout stomach, 32 Chunk’s playful pursuit of protein provided him a prodigious paunch. Who will win in the battle of the bellies?

swiwi_

thomond2006 wrote: »

Anyone for putting Trump talk on a separate off topic thread?

This from the NFL guy...

Richie_Rich89

sydthebeat wrote: »

wow thats some level of revisionism there.

Islamic State emerged out of Al Queda (it was a splinter group) in response to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003... 8 years before Obama.
ISIS as a grouping within Al Queda has existed since 1999.

Obama has always admitted that the failure to plan for the aftermath of gaddafi's death was his biggest mistake, however its not as if Libya was a bastion of peaceful enterprise before obama had any influence. lets not forget that Gaddafi was killed by his own countrymen, not an american mission strike.

whats happening in Syria is civil war... born from the Arab spring of 2011....which would have happened regardless of any intervention from the US or the UN. In fact the stick widely used to beat Obama with in regards to syria is the LACK of intervention and influence in the region. Remember Assad fired chemical weapons on his own people and Obama reneged on his previous promise to match fire with fire.

Obama made many mistakes in his presidency and was in no way a "peaceful"president... but some of that revisionism (the last line especially) is straight from the Donald Trump play book and should be called out for the untruth it is.

What were Islamic State before they moved into the vacuum in Iraq and expanded massively? Nothing. That's what. No-one had ever heard of them.

Of course, the Americans should never have been in Iraq in the first place. You can lay that at the feet of Bush. He should be up at the Hague on crimes against humanity charges. Along with Blair.

Gaddafi's overthrowing in Libya is the biggest advertisement possible for dictators not committing to nuclear disarmament.

The "civil war" angle in Syria is largely western propaganda. There were elements at the start along those lines but it quickly descended into western-backed Islamic extremists versus government forces. The terrorists were being backed from outside to try to achieve the end goal of putting a US puppet in as leader like has happened in Egypt. They wanted to be able to build that gas pipeline through Syria and remove Russia's only deepwater Mediterranean port. Frankly, I'm not sure you can believe the claims of chemical attacks after all the weapons of mass destruction stuff used as a pretext for the Iraq War.

sydthebeat

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

What were Islamic State before they moved into the vacuum in Iraq and expanded massively? Nothing. That's what. No-one had ever heard of them.

Of course, the Americans should never have been in Iraq in the first place. You can lay that at the feet of Bush. He should be up at the Hague on crimes against humanity charges. Along with Blair.

Gaddafi's overthrowing in Libya is the biggest advertisement possible for dictators not committing to nuclear disarmament.

The "civil war" angle in Syria is largely western propaganda. There were elements at the start along those lines but it quickly descended into western-backed Islamic extremists versus government forces. The terrorists were being backed from outside to try to achieve the end goal of putting a US puppet in as leader like has happened in Egypt. They wanted to be able to build that gas pipeline through Syria and remove Russia's only deepwater Mediterranean port. Frankly, I'm not sure you can believe the claims of chemical attacks after all the weapons of mass destruction stuff used as a pretext for the Iraq War.

ah here.....

so you agree Obama didnt create IS..... the libyan popular uprising actually destabilized the region ....

and you believe the syrian civil war is propaganda

hummmm.

no point in debating with someone who flip flops and dismisses fact.

thomond2006

swiwi_ wrote: »

This from the NFL guy...

Whoosh.

Squidgy Black

Can't believe people still respond to Richie's posts.

sydthebeat

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Can't believe people still respond to Richie's posts.

straight from the Donald Trump play book and should be called out for the untruth it is.

this is why

just in case you were wondering

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

This from the NFL guy...

Squidgy Black

sydthebeat wrote: »

this is way

just in case you were wondering

Ah I know Syd but he just goes out of the way to cause trouble for the sake of it.

Richie_Rich89

sydthebeat wrote: »

ah here.....

so you agree Obama didnt create IS..... the libyan popular uprising actually destabilized the region ....

and you believe the syrian civil war is propaganda

hummmm.

no point in debating with someone who flip flops and dismisses fact.

I believe the absolutely overwhelming majority of what's put out by mainstream media like Sky and BBC about the Syrian conflict is propaganda, yes.

A good example would be Sky News cutting off a high-ranking British army officer who questions the chemical attack narrative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtPhe7YsGmU

sydthebeat

im not going to bother anymore richie

thanks anyway

At times you feel you don't want to let clear lies and dishonest arguments stand.

But the people making them never seem willing or able to take anything away that contradicts the world view they've been fed and have swallowed whole so increasingly it's not worth the bother.

It's frustrating but also quite sad and despairingly widespread. The misinformation is winning and the prejudices of those peddling it seem so insatiable that no amount of contradiction and hypocrisy in their position deters them - even when clearly pointed out.

Internet is becoming a lost battleground to grown up, informed conversation.

kuang1

I take it you enjoyed "the social dilemma" then Venjur?

Sorry everyone for banging on about this documentary yet again, but a must see for everybody with a social media account or smartphone imo.

Explains some, maybe most, of why what you just posted is true.

Neil3030

If we only talk about bears, the robots can't win.

sydthebeat

Oh yoshimi, they don't believe me.....

Guinness RFC

kuang1 wrote: »

I take it you enjoyed "the social dilemma" then Venjur?

Sorry everyone for banging on about this documentary yet again, but a must see for everybody with a social media account or smartphone imo.

Explains some, maybe most, of why what you just posted is true.

I thought it was fear mongering if nonsense.

Most of what it explained everyone already knows that social media companies track your data and use it tailor ads and news stories to make money off you. Some of it is using the power of suggestion and subliminal messaging to bring you to a viewpoint. Big deal. People say what about the control they have- but they have no control if you put down your phone or just think through your own opinions. Opinions can almost always be proven false anyway the great Socrates has shown that we essentially know nothing and that was at the dawn of civilisation 2500 years ago.

What I can’t get past is that the documentary works on the assumption that we are indefensible against it. That we are all turds stuck to our phones. True many teenagers are but grown ups less so. I don’t believe any of what I read on the internet it is a battle ground and the truth lies between both sides arguing. Not always but by and large yes. You still have to argue your points for example on a site like this but when I see someone with a pumped up self belief I laugh at them. They generally know nothing.

Podge_irl

swiwi_ wrote: »

This from the NFL guy...

I started the NFL talk

Not even recognised for that...

Bazzo

So to get back to the real off topic topic:

Trump just single handedly tanked the US stock market. Not sure how he thinks this is a good idea a month out from the election.

Dave_The_Sheep

Bazzo wrote: »

So to get back to the real off topic topic:

Trump just single handedly tanked the US stock market. Not sure how he thinks this is a good idea a month out from the election.

He's not tanking the stock market. He's pausing stimulus talks so they can focus on the Amy Coney Barrett confirmation works.

Of course.

pickarooney

Bazzo wrote: »

So to get back to the real off topic topic:

Trump just single handedly tanked the US stock market. Not sure how he thinks this is a good idea a month out from the election.

What did he do exactly?

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

What did he do exactly?

He is refusing to discuss any further stimulus, effectively leaving the US without any safety net during covid (in a country that already has virtually no social safety net). Anyone having to isolate or any lockdown will be done with no financial support (at least at a federal level). The wealthier blue states already have pretty good supports in place but ironically red states will hurt proportionately more because of this.

It will hit public spending but with unemployment at record highs it's going to push a huge amount of people into poverty and it's EXTREMELY hard to get out of poverty in America.

The DOW took a hammering after the announcement because the stimulus was primarily to keep businesses open whilst providing supplemental income to individuals and families. It will alienate people on both sides of the political aisle but it's clear he isn't planning on winning the election with votes anymore, he is too far behind at this point.

Instead he want's the current senate to force through the appointment of his Supreme Court pick who he feels he will need to defraud the election. He wants riots, discord and an extremely hostile climate as people go to the ballots so that in the chaos he can over ride the vote.

Guinness RFC wrote: »

the internet it is a battle ground and the truth lies between both sides arguing.

This isn't the case though is it. You have foreign actors pumping misinformation into social discourse and driving the window of discussion increasingly to the political right. There is no middle ground here - it's misinformation and propaganda which people adopt as part of their world view. Case in point we've seen it twice in this thread over the last few pages, and on neither occasion did the truth lie in the middle - both individuals were repeating propaganda that is easily disprovable.

When the UK is targeting civil rights lawyers at a home office / prime ministerial level you know things have changed dramatically in a very short time. Again - this isn't based on finding either side of the truth, this is a political movement that retains supports by creating enemies - in this instance, immigrants at a time when there are FAR greater societal issues facing the UK.

And this idea that people aren't swayed by what they read is nonsense. Brexit is one of the biggest misinformation campaigns in history and it's well established how voting trends changed dramatically in the lead up to the vote.

Advertising and propaganda are well established tools that business and politics spends a fortune on. When the Tory party in the UK attempted to break the law - they tweeted after they won the first vote that "Labour sided with the EU again" just because they voted in opposition to breaking international law. That is an entire mischaracterisation of what happened and is pure propaganda and I've subsequently seen it echoed on social media. Where is the middle ground meant to be against such dishonesty?

If you don't think propaganda works - how is it that Christian evangelicals elected the most immoral, unchristian President in modern American history?

People are treating politics as a game, the financiers of populist movements like the Republican and Tory parties are NOT playing games, they are making investments and are getting rewarded. The useful idiots on the ballots are so devoid of integrity that they'll go to whatever extreme necessary to ensure the retention of power. We are seeing this play out in real time - the natural conclusion of what we are seeing is fascism and America is knocking firmly on that door right now.

It really isn't a game and people need to grow up and start taking themselves, their political decisions and information sources a lot more seriously.

molloyjh

pickarooney wrote: »

What did he do exactly?

Hes instructed Republicans to stop negotiating with the Dems on the stimulus package for C19 until after the election despite warnings from the Fed Reserve about how bad that will be for the economy. Instead they have to focus full time on the Supreme Court nominee.

As soon as I saw it my gut reaction was simply "he's f-ed himself". This is going to hurt businesses up and down the country. It will guarantee more businesses will go under. Not only that, but he also admitted that the stimulus plan that they are planning on bringing in after the election will only be 2/3 of the one the Dems are proposing.

Even if his rabid supporters don't care about the impacts that this has on them, anyone left truly undecided who has a business that is struggling or knows someone who does or who is employed in one that is will surely have their minds made up by this. Its a big 2 fingers up to anyone in the country who is finding things difficult. And is being done in order to stack the system in the Republicans favour. Drain the swamp my backside!

sydthebeat

Is that not again an impeachable action as he is using his presidential powers for political gain??

He's trying to essentially buy votes with money

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Is that not again an impeachable action as he is using his presidential powers for political gain??

He's trying to essentially buy votes with money

The first impeachment was iron clad. Senate Republicans made it clear they would not impeach a Republican president no matter how clear the evidence.

The victory lap Trump took after the Republican senate failed to impeach him gained him votes. Democrats won't give him the free platform again when one side of the political chasm is openly supporting lawlessness.

OldRio

I recently watched a BBC series called 'Rise of the Nazis'
Utterly fascinating and compelling viewing.

The similarities between what is happening in Britain and the States right now is frightening.
Control of the media. check
The judiciary. check
The civil service. check
The upper classes. check
A common enemy/scapegoat

Only the army left.....

I would highly recommend the series if its on again.

mfceiling

kuang1 wrote: »

I take it you enjoyed "the social dilemma" then Venjur?

Sorry everyone for banging on about this documentary yet again, but a must see for everybody with a social media account or smartphone imo.

Explains some, maybe most, of why what you just posted is true.

It was an eye opener I have to admit.

I hate the way they "tailor" the search results or news feed to suit what they believe is your narrative. You can't have a reasoned opinion on anything if you keep getting fed what they believe you want to see/hear.

I would be slightly more right wing than centre but I respect and will listen to more left leaning views (hell I read the guardian most days). I'm fcuked if I'm interested in getting propaganda peddled to me without listening or reading counter arguments. How the hell can you have a proper view on what's happening in the world if you get one side of a story.

molloyjh

mfceiling wrote: »

It was an eye opener I have to admit.

I hate the way they "tailor" the search results or news feed to suit what they believe is your narrative. You can't have a reasoned opinion on anything if you keep getting fed what they believe you want to see/hear.

I would be slightly more right wing than centre but I respect and will listen to more left leaning views (hell I read the guardian most days). I'm fcuked if I'm interested in getting propaganda peddled to me without listening or reading counter arguments. How the hell can you have a proper view on what's happening in the world if you get one side of a story.

Because these days its not about getting a proper, informed view. Its about being right. And anything that confirms that is gospel, anything that contradicts is propaganda.

b.gud

mfceiling wrote: »

I hate the way they "tailor" the search results

There are times when this can be quite helpful, for instance a while back I was searching for something quite ambiguous, can't remember exactly what it was think it might have been something about DIY. So I figured I'd probably need to go through a few pages to get the right result but to my surprise it was one of the first few results. This is fine when you are looking up something inconsequential like I was but tailoring news results can get a lot more dangerous a lot quicker

Guinness RFC

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He is refusing to discuss any further stimulus, effectively leaving the US without any safety net during covid (in a country that already has virtually no social safety net). Anyone having to isolate or any lockdown will be done with no financial support (at least at a federal level). The wealthier blue states already have pretty good supports in place but ironically red states will hurt proportionately more because of this.

It will hit public spending but with unemployment at record highs it's going to push a huge amount of people into poverty and it's EXTREMELY hard to get out of poverty in America.

The DOW took a hammering after the announcement because the stimulus was primarily to keep businesses open whilst providing supplemental income to individuals and families. It will alienate people on both sides of the political aisle but it's clear he isn't planning on winning the election with votes anymore, he is too far behind at this point.

Instead he want's the current senate to force through the appointment of his Supreme Court pick who he feels he will need to defraud the election. He wants riots, discord and an extremely hostile climate as people go to the ballots so that in the chaos he can over ride the vote.



This isn't the case though is it. You have foreign actors pumping misinformation into social discourse and driving the window of discussion increasingly to the political right. There is no middle ground here - it's misinformation and propaganda which people adopt as part of their world view. Case in point we've seen it twice in this thread over the last few pages, and on neither occasion did the truth lie in the middle - both individuals were repeating propaganda that is easily disprovable.

When the UK is targeting civil rights lawyers at a home office / prime ministerial level you know things have changed dramatically in a very short time. Again - this isn't based on finding either side of the truth, this is a political movement that retains supports by creating enemies - in this instance, immigrants at a time when there are FAR greater societal issues facing the UK.

And this idea that people aren't swayed by what they read is nonsense. Brexit is one of the biggest misinformation campaigns in history and it's well established how voting trends changed dramatically in the lead up to the vote.

Advertising and propaganda are well established tools that business and politics spends a fortune on. When the Tory party in the UK attempted to break the law - they tweeted after they won the first vote that "Labour sided with the EU again" just because they voted in opposition to breaking international law. That is an entire mischaracterisation of what happened and is pure propaganda and I've subsequently seen it echoed on social media. Where is the middle ground meant to be against such dishonesty?

If you don't think propaganda works - how is it that Christian evangelicals elected the most immoral, unchristian President in modern American history?

People are treating politics as a game, the financiers of populist movements like the Republican and Tory parties are NOT playing games, they are making investments and are getting rewarded. The useful idiots on the ballots are so devoid of integrity that they'll go to whatever extreme necessary to ensure the retention of power. We are seeing this play out in real time - the natural conclusion of what we are seeing is fascism and America is knocking firmly on that door right now.

It really isn't a game and people need to grow up and start taking themselves, their political decisions and information sources a lot more seriously.

The alternative view point is that people actually believe in right wing politics for whatever reason be that religious beliefs or they are overtly racist by nature.

I support the right because the left propagates abortion. I don’t however condone or believe in the rampant racist ideology of protecting the white Irish or American/British language race and culture.

You need to chill out and stop taking it so seriously. If more people had that viewpoint the extremism would just die off and gulf between right and left would disappear.

The poverty is however an issue and I agree with you on this front. The outcry of Marxism over there when the conversation diverts to helping the poor is criminal. It’s militarised segments of society on both sides. The DOW tanks but the DOW is an outdated snapshot of ten dinosaur companies.