Childminders & Creches how will they return?

beauf

Any thoughts how childminders & creches will return?

Phase 3
opening of crèches, childminders and pre-schools for children of essential workers in phased manner

Phase 4
opening of crèches, childminders and pre-schools for children of all other workers on a gradually increasing basis

When do we think these phases will happen, best case scenario.

munsterlegend

beauf wrote: »

Any thoughts how childminders & creches will return?

Phase 3
opening of crèches, childminders and pre-schools for children of essential workers in phased manner

Phase 4
opening of crèches, childminders and pre-schools for children of all other workers on a gradually increasing basis

When do we think these phases will happen, best case scenario.

July 20th is the proposed time for stage 4 so then?

GDK_11

The stage 4 proposes gradual increases, e.g 1 day a week which really won’t suit anyone.

I do have some sympathy for the government, schools and crèches are such a difficult call. My own opinion for what it’s worth is if you have a child that falls in to phase 4 it will be later than the 20th of July. I’m in that category myself and am starting to worry about working from home long term looking after a baby, unfortunately I think a lot of crèches may go bust due to this.

heroics

Proposed dates for the phases attached

faceman

If anything this highlights the poor state of our education and childminding system when other countries are reopening schools far earlier eight the appropriate class sizes and measures in place.

Balf

They'll go back the same way that public transport will go back. At some point, it will become acceptable to actually say that life cannot go on without people being physically adjacent for large parts of the day.

This may be preceded by someone talking as if it is possible to implement social distancing in a creche, in a similar way to the Government envisaging that night clubs will be allowed to open if they can maintain social distance.

Shybride2016

Personally until there’s a very rapid turnaround for testing I can’t see crèches and preschools reopening in any sort of “normal” capacity.

Social distancing goes against the grain completely when looking after children, when they need help in the toilet, when they fall and hurt themselves, when they come in on day 1 after having been away for 6 months at home they’re likely to be upset at leaving their parents. All these situations are daily occurrences and staff’s first and natural reaction is to give them big cuddles and reassurances.

I understand the gradual reopening 1 day a week for some shops/businesses but really it can take weeks for a child to settle into a childcare arrangement and that’s when they are attending 5 days a week. 1 day a week is a lifetime for a small child and each week it’ll be like starting from scratch for them.

Also, hygiene practices will have to be even more stringent. I find it scary sometimes watching the news seeing doctors and nurses in full PPE - are those that work in childcare going to have to do the same? That’s not a pleasant sight for a small child to see and feel comforted by.

Toys are constantly being bitten and chewed, do we clean them or throw them out? Kids are so tactile and in close contact, do we tell them hugs/high fives/playing together aren’t allowed anymore?

Illness policies will have to be much more stringent also. Will we have to take temperatures when they come in in the morning? Most children in childcare cough and sneeze on a daily basis, are these children going to have to stay home now? Are parents going to have to sign a document at drop-off stating that their child hasn’t had any Calpol or Neurofen to mask symptoms of a fever?

Working in childcare, we are constantly putting the child at the centre of any decisions we make. Reopening before any of the PPE/hygiene measures are in place just so people can go back to work is IMO not the right thing to do.

Any childcare measures have to put the child at the centre. Businesses will have to be supported in allowing already stressed parents to take paid time off across a working week to better balance being able to look after their children and also carry out work tasks. I’d love to see a separate sick leave policy in place for each parent to have the flexibility to take a number of days off at short notice to look after their unwell child while not being penalised financially.

If parents have childcare and return to work, they’re then potentially taking busy public transport, being exposed to who knows how many people’s germs again. They then come to collect their child and potentially pass on symptoms to other parents, children and staff. If staff get sick and have to self-isolate the creche/preschool may have to close again due to being over-ratio.

It’s time to get rid of the culture of putting parents under pressure to work like they don’t have kids, and parent and look after their children like they don’t have a job.

Balf

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Personally until there’s a very rapid turnaround for testing I can’t see crèches and preschools reopening in any sort of “normal” capacity.

Social distancing goes against the grain completely when looking after children, when they need help in the toilet, when they fall and hurt themselves, when they come in on day 1 after having been away for 6 months at home they’re likely to be upset at leaving their parents. All these situations are daily occurrences and staff’s first and natural reaction is to give them big cuddles and reassurances.

I understand the gradual reopening 1 day a week for some shops/businesses but really it can take weeks for a child to settle into a childcare arrangement and that’s when they are attending 5 days a week. 1 day a week is a lifetime for a small child and each week it’ll be like starting from scratch for them.

Also, hygiene practices will have to be even more stringent. I find it scary sometimes watching the news seeing doctors and nurses in full PPE - are those that work in childcare going to have to do the same? That’s not a pleasant sight for a small child to see and feel comforted by.

Illness policies will have to be much more stringent also. Will we have to take temperatures when they come in in the morning? Most children in childcare cough and sneeze on a daily basis, are these children going to have to stay home now? Are parents going to have to sign a document at drop-off stating that their child hasn’t had any Calpol or Neurofen to mask symptoms of a fever?

Working in childcare, we are constantly putting the child at the centre of any decisions we make. Reopening before any of the PPE/hygiene measures are in place just so people can go back to work is IMO not the right thing to do.

Any childcare measures have to put the child at the centre. Businesses will have to be supported in allowing already stressed parents to take paid time off across a working week to better balance being able to look after their children and also carry out work tasks. I’d love to see a separate sick leave policy in place for each parent to have the flexibility to take a number of days off at short notice to look after their unwell child while not being penalised financially.

It’s time to get rid of the culture of putting parents under pressure to work like they don’t have kids, and parent and look after their children like they don’t have a job.

Very realistic post.

When you reflect on it, the idea of childminding staff in full PPE is just a non-runner. But, indeed, the national conversation will have to entertain this a little longer, as if it was.

I think you have a point; is the choice between the reemergence of stay at home parents, or professional childcare. But even then, children can't be cocooned with their parents all day. Socialisation, involving physical adjacency with other children, is essential.

There's a cohort of children getting socially stunted, as we speak, with no sense of any urgency over the loss of their irreplaceable time.

Shybride2016

Balf wrote: »

I think you have a point; is the choice between the reemergence of stay at home parents, or professional childcare. But even then, children can't be cocooned with their parents all day. Socialisation, involving physical adjacency with other children, is essential.

There's a cohort of children getting socially stunted, as we speak, with no sense of any urgency over the loss of their irreplaceable time.

I completely agree with you that there are many many children who are struggling at home without the social outlet of creche and preschool which was an important part of their young lives.

Speaking of my own situation for a moment as an example, there are two children in my preschool who are currently awaiting assessment for developmental delays and their parents are both at home trying to work full-time and look after their children. Their children need constant and I mean constant attention as they have no sense of fear or danger and cannot be left to “work on an art project alongside the working parent” which was a suggestion they read on an online blog last week.
This stress is not sustainable in any sense of short or long term. Myself and my colleagues are doing all we can to support these children remotely but it is not comparable to the support we can give them in the preschool.

Speaking as someone who has knowledge as well as experience, any child development theorist will say that until the age of 2 1/2 - 3 years, children are not necessarily losing out in any way by not having interactions with peers or people outside of their family unit. However when you look at preschool age and beyond, the socialisation and development side of things accelerates hugely and the importance of learning things such as turn-taking, initiating conversations with other children etc really comes into play.

My only answer at the moment to the childcare/work dilemma is to look at what employers can do to facilitate parents as at the moment, the testing/hygiene requirements just aren’t at the level needed in childcare settings for us to be able to do our job and look after our “kids” in the way we do.

SeeMoreBut

My own opinion is that child minding of some sorts need to start as early as phase 1/2 for everyone. Can start allowing people to go back to work and not have some sort of child minding in place.

Maybe a simple as allowing to give your child(ren) to a minder (family, friend, employee of a creche) but the rule is only 1 family per minder. They should follow normal restrictions if not a little tighter.

Maybe a creche has 4 rooms so allow 4 families but no mixing allowed.

drunkmonkey

I don't think I'd be too enthusiastic about sending in the kids with health care workers kids, isn't it asking for trouble? We'd have to stop ourselves and the kids seeing their grandparents again.

fits

My children go to a minder. One has special needs and is really missing his old routines. She only takes my two. I really hope we can go back to her sooner than July 20. Even for part of the day. Myself and husband both Have full time jobs as well. It’s simply not possible to work with the children around so we take turns.

Shybride2016

This is the DCYA press release for childcare in Phase 1 for frontline workers (from May 18).

https://www.gov.ie/en/news/040983-covid-19-emergency-childcare-service-for-essential-healthcare-worker/

It’s a start but there are issues that need to be thought out between now and then to make it workable. Anyone who volunteers will be going into the worker’s home. Any volunteers who have children of their own will not be allowed bring them with them (understandably) so who minds the childcare workers’ kids then?

There’s a high likelihood that the childcare worker may not already be known to the kids and family - under normal circumstances there’s a settling-in period so children can get to know their minder. This likely won’t be possible so their parents will be gone out to work and they’ll be essentially left with a stranger to them - huge potential for distress for the children there.

If a minder is minding kids for someone who works in a hospital/nursing home surely they’re at a massively increased risk of exposure to covid-19 - will they have to isolate in their own home after a day minding kids? Who will be responsible for maintaining a cleaned house? The minder or the frontline worker?

Just a few questions I hope we get answers to before May 18th.

Shybride2016

fits wrote: »

My children go to a minder. One has special needs and is really missing his old routines. She only takes my two. I really hope we can go back to her sooner than July 20. Even for part of the day. Myself and husband both Have full time jobs as well. It’s simply not possible to work with the children around so we take turns.

That sounds incredibly stressful fits and I know of many other families in the same position. Do you mind me asking has your employer made any allowances for your particularly difficult situation or are you both expected to work as normal?

fits

Shybride2016 wrote: »

That sounds incredibly stressful fits and I know of many other families in the same position. Do you mind me asking has your employer made any allowances for your particularly difficult situation or are you both expected to work as normal?

We are expected to maintain activity. Now myself and husband both self manage to a large extent and organise our own schedules so there is no pressure in that way but activity needs to be maintained all the same. I dislike mentioning the disability in a way because so many families are much worse off eg there are no associated complicated physical health issues. But it is hard.

Shybride2016

fits wrote: »

We are expected to maintain activity. Now myself and husband both self manage to a large extent and organise our own schedules so there is no pressure in that way but activity needs to be maintained all the same. I dislike mentioning the disability in a way because so many families are much worse off eg there are no associated complicated physical health issues. But it is hard.

Thanks for the reply fits. I understand where you’re coming from but of course your day-to-day reality whilst maybe less tough than others, it’s extremely difficult to manage in these times when children who thrive on routines and familiarity are thrown into this new restricted day to day challenge. It is very hard and it sounds like you have a good team effort with your husband. I hope you can take some time out for yourself too in the midst of it all. Mind yourselves.

Mad_maxx

Kids are not at risk, reopen the schools and creches tomorrow

LilyShame

Agree with posters anxieties on this thread. My little boy loves going to his Afterschool and really hoped it would be well before 20th July. I believe its impossible to work and be a mum in the same 8 hours. Employers are not taking this into account..... The Government have not taken this into account.

If the government want to take a Conservative approach to reopening the country...then they need to put an incentivised parental leave option in place.. Or maybe review their 15 week road map. ..

Jeaimi

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Kids are not at risk, reopen the schools and creches tomorrow

Asymptomatic children can pass infections very easily in an early years setting. We already know this. Also a person can have two viral infections. A child could have a rhinovirus and coronavirus, the symptoms of the first spreading both virus. A normal 2 year old probably catches 8 infections in a year (mostly viral). Early years practitioners generally have a high risk of exposure to infections due to the nature of the work.

Are you going to ask people who earn an average of E11.50 an hour to isolate themselves from their friends, families and society at large for an extended period without insurance against covid-19 claims so everyone else can get back to normal. Do you think the workers themselves might have something to say about that? The sector was already on the rocks and there are people online and in the media making suggestions that would bankrupt us or force us to go on strike.

Personally I've found it heartening to hear other practitioners on this thread that are worrying about the same things as I am. How are we going to do this safely with due regard for the wellbeing of the child while not going bust and having to close the doors?

BoatMad

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Kids are not at risk, reopen the schools and creches tomorrow

their minders clearly are as are the parents and grandparents that they return to every day

Jeaimi

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Personally until there’s a very rapid turnaround for testing I can’t see crèches and preschools reopening in any sort of “normal” capacity.

Social distancing goes against the grain completely when looking after children, when they need help in the toilet, when they fall and hurt themselves, when they come in on day 1 after having been away for 6 months at home they’re likely to be upset at leaving their parents. All these situations are daily occurrences and staff’s first and natural reaction is to give them big cuddles and reassurances.

I understand the gradual reopening 1 day a week for some shops/businesses but really it can take weeks for a child to settle into a childcare arrangement and that’s when they are attending 5 days a week. 1 day a week is a lifetime for a small child and each week it’ll be like starting from scratch for them.

Also, hygiene practices will have to be even more stringent. I find it scary sometimes watching the news seeing doctors and nurses in full PPE - are those that work in childcare going to have to do the same? That’s not a pleasant sight for a small child to see and feel comforted by.

Toys are constantly being bitten and chewed, do we clean them or throw them out? Kids are so tactile and in close contact, do we tell them hugs/high fives/playing together aren’t allowed anymore?

Illness policies will have to be much more stringent also. Will we have to take temperatures when they come in in the morning? Most children in childcare cough and sneeze on a daily basis, are these children going to have to stay home now? Are parents going to have to sign a document at drop-off stating that their child hasn’t had any Calpol or Neurofen to mask symptoms of a fever?

Working in childcare, we are constantly putting the child at the centre of any decisions we make. Reopening before any of the PPE/hygiene measures are in place just so people can go back to work is IMO not the right thing to do.

Any childcare measures have to put the child at the centre. Businesses will have to be supported in allowing already stressed parents to take paid time off across a working week to better balance being able to look after their children and also carry out work tasks. I’d love to see a separate sick leave policy in place for each parent to have the flexibility to take a number of days off at short notice to look after their unwell child while not being penalised financially.

If parents have childcare and return to work, they’re then potentially taking busy public transport, being exposed to who knows how many people’s germs again. They then come to collect their child and potentially pass on symptoms to other parents, children and staff. If staff get sick and have to self-isolate the creche/preschool may have to close again due to being over-ratio.

It’s time to get rid of the culture of putting parents under pressure to work like they don’t have kids, and parent and look after their children like they don’t have a job.

I love this post, exactly the
same type of questions I've been asking myself!

Shybride2016

Jeaimi wrote: »

I love this post, exactly the
same type of questions I've been asking myself!

Hi Jeaimi,

I’ve so many other questions but these were off the top of my head when I posted. It’s an absolute minefield!

Inquitus

Allianz have said they won't insure childcare workers for Covid related claims, surely that is a nail into the coffin of the plan for creche workers to mind frontline workers kids in the workers homes?

Shybride2016

Inquitus wrote: »

Allianz have said they won't insure childcare workers for Covid related claims, surely that is a nail into the coffin of the plan for creche workers to mind frontline workers kids in the workers homes?

Yep you’d imagine so. They also all need to be Garda Vetted again which notoriously takes forever. The DCYA have provided this “plan” to parents without any meaningful consultation with people working in the sector. No doubt when there’s a low take-up of this by childcare workers we’ll yet again be painted as the baddies in the media.

I’ve heard elsewhere that understandably frontline workers want to know who will be coming into their home minding their children. If it’s someone from their existing childcare arrangement, great, but otherwise it’ll be a very tough situation for children to be effectively minded by a stranger after having had a parent look after them since mid-March.

granturismo

Inquitus wrote: »

Allianz have said they won't insure childcare workers for Covid related claims, surely that is a nail into the coffin of the plan for creche workers to mind frontline workers kids in the workers homes?

How can a claimant prove the source of infection if they become covid positive even if there is an outbreak in their place of employment, the source of infection is impossible to prove. I'm no fan of insurance companies but I see their justification in not covering covid claims here.

Inquitus

granturismo wrote: »

How can a claimant prove the source of infection if they become covid positive even if there is an outbreak in their place of employment, the source of infection is impossible to prove. I'm no fan of insurance companies but I see their justification in not covering covid claims here.

That may be so, but no childcare worker is going to put themselves at risk in a frontline workers house with likely higher chances of covid exposure with no cover if the worst happens.

Jeaimi

granturismo wrote: »

How can a claimant prove the source of infection if they become covid positive even if there is an outbreak in their place of employment, the source of infection is impossible to prove. I'm no fan of insurance companies but I see their justification in not covering covid claims here.

It's not just about employees suing employers, it's about staff and businesses exposing themselves to claims without coverage. It's just not gonna happen.

Jeaimi

Jeaimi wrote: »

It's not just about employees suing employers, it's about staff and businesses exposing themselves to claims without coverage. It's just not gonna happen.

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Hi Jeaimi,

I’ve so many other questions but these were off the top of my head when I posted. It’s an absolute minefield!

Agreed and we're all in the dark as to what's happening. So many practical issues that I'm worried aren't being looked at. The whole PPE thing like, any practitioner can tell you there's a whole host of reasons why that's no going to work. And more protocol, more cleaning, more documentation-we'll be washing the kids hands every ten seconds by the look of it! I get the sense the public just doesn't get it.

Shybride2016

Jeaimi wrote: »

Agreed and we're all in the dark as to what's happening. So many practical issues that I'm worried aren't being looked at. The whole PPE thing like, any practitioner can tell you there's a whole host of reasons why that's no going to work. And more protocol, more cleaning, more documentation-we'll be washing the kids hands every ten seconds by the look of it! I get the sense the public just doesn't get it.

Couldn’t agree with you more. Not only do the public not understand but it seems like the DCYA have very little idea also.

Hypothetically if we can’t accommodate our full classes in September due to social distancing, how do we decide who doesn’t get to come back for their second year ECCE or who gets their place declined to start for example?

If they stagger the start times and allow small groups of children in for an hour each day, the staff are still being exposed to all the germs from the kids and their families and can then pass those germs on to the other kids and families unless we have proper PPE.

As it stands, if social distancing is to be with us long-term, there are going to have to be radical changes in the sector and working parents’ employers are going to have to step up once and for all and accept that parents need extra supports whilst restrictions are in place.

I could go on but I’m like a broken record at this stage!

Jeaimi

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Couldn’t agree with you more. Not only do the public not understand but it seems like the DCYA have very little idea also.

Hypothetically if we can’t accommodate our full classes in September due to social distancing, how do we decide who doesn’t get to come back for their second year ECCE or who gets their place declined to start for example?

If they stagger the start times and allow small groups of children in for an hour each day, the staff are still being exposed to all the germs from the kids and their families and can then pass those germs on to the other kids and families unless we have proper PPE.

As it stands, if social distancing is to be with us long-term, there are going to have to be radical changes in the sector and working parents’ employers are going to have to step up once and for all and accept that parents need extra supports whilst restrictions are in place.

I could go on but I’m like a broken record at this stage!

My hope is we will see an overhaul of the system. If we have to cut our group sizes they'll have to increase capitation too.

I really wouldn't like wearing the mask with young kids, they need to see your whole face and I reckon the first chance they get they'll rip it off and stick their hand in your mouth anyway.

I'm worried the PPE just won't be effective in that environment, I think there are a lot of workers in their fifties and sixties that will be vulnerable. I think we'll have to be isolating ourselves like those in healthcare to keep our families and friends safe. I think that people need to be aware of what they are asking from us.

Employers should step up and we should recognise as a society that children spending 40 hours a week in daycare facilities is not the ideal that we should all be striving for.

VillageIdiot71

Jeaimi wrote: »

I think that people need to be aware of what they are asking from us.

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Not only do the public not understand but it seems like the DCYA have very little idea also.

Both if you give very practical insights into the problems.

I'm not sure anyone really knows what happens next. I don't work in childcare, but I did wonder where all the people would come from to provide childcare to healthcare workers and such.

Sounds like that part of the plan won't be happening like that.