Childminders & Creches how will they return?

Shybride2016

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Both if you give very practical insights into the problems.

I'm not sure anyone really knows what happens next. I don't work in childcare, but I did wonder where all the people would come from to provide childcare to healthcare workers and such.

Sounds like that part of the plan won't be happening like that.

The idea of the plan was that childcare workers who are currently not working in services would apply to volunteer to go to frontline workers’ homes and mind children there. There was apparently a concern that these childcare workers could potentially bring covid-19 into these homes, yet there was no mention to my knowledge of the more likely reverse situation of the frontline workers bringing covid19 back into their own homes.

First issue - many childcare workers have their own children to look after. Who now minds these children? Nothing was mentioned about this in any plans to my knowledge.

Second issue - many younger childcare workers with no children of their own live at home with their parents - risk of them bringing covid19 back into their family home and potentially passing it on to their parents who would potentially be at higher risk of health complications if they contract the virus - again no mention of this in plans.

Third issue - if a childcare worker was to volunteer to work in a frontline worker’s home - who is responsible for homeschooling/meal prep/bathing or getting children ready for bed? We all know some frontline workers are working 13/14 hour shifts. Is the childcare worker also going to be responsible for making sure the house is as clean as possible to avoid spread of infection?

Fourth issue - apparently it is the employer of these childcare workers’ duty to ensure they get their usual breaks in their working day - how? Enter another unfamiliar adult to the home? Issues as above. Childminders work in their own homes and often for the same amount of hours again with no breaks for toilet/lunch/headspace etc.

Fifth issue - Insurance - childcare workers will not be indemnified by the state for providing an essential much-needed service to frontline workers’ families. Why? Is it because they know there’s obviously a huge risk attached to people moving from a non-infected household to a household where the adults are exposed to covid19 at a very high level?

Again. These are just a handful of the issues I can think of off the top of my head and there’s many already been mentioned here on thread so I won’t repeat them.

Jeaimi

Shybride2016 wrote: »

The idea of the plan was that childcare workers who are currently not working in services would apply to volunteer to go to frontline workers’ homes and mind children there. There was apparently a concern that these childcare workers could potentially bring covid-19 into these homes, yet there was no mention to my knowledge of the more likely reverse situation of the frontline workers bringing covid19 back into their own homes.

First issue - many childcare workers have their own children to look after. Who now minds these children? Nothing was mentioned about this in any plans to my knowledge.

Second issue - many younger childcare workers with no children of their own live at home with their parents - risk of them bringing covid19 back into their family home and potentially passing it on to their parents who would potentially be at higher risk of health complications if they contract the virus - again no mention of this in plans.

Third issue - if a childcare worker was to volunteer to work in a frontline worker’s home - who is responsible for homeschooling/meal prep/bathing or getting children ready for bed? We all know some frontline workers are working 13/14 hour shifts. Is the childcare worker also going to be responsible for making sure the house is as clean as possible to avoid spread of infection?

Fourth issue - apparently it is the employer of these childcare workers’ duty to ensure they get their usual breaks in their working day - how? Enter another unfamiliar adult to the home? Issues as above. Childminders work in their own homes and often for the same amount of hours again with no breaks for toilet/lunch/headspace etc.

Fifth issue - Insurance - childcare workers will not be indemnified by the state for providing an essential much-needed service to frontline workers’ families. Why? Is it because they know there’s obviously a huge risk attached to people moving from a non-infected household to a household where the adults are exposed to covid19 at a very high level?

Again. These are just a handful of the issues I can think of off the top of my head and there’s many already been mentioned here on thread so I won’t repeat them.

I can't see any of the providers going for it. It's a pity cause I think a lot of us want to help the frontline staff.

Jeaimi

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Both if you give very practical insights into the problems.

I'm not sure anyone really knows what happens next. I don't work in childcare, but I did wonder where all the people would come from to provide childcare to healthcare workers and such.

Sounds like that part of the plan won't be happening like that.

I can't see it happening in its current form but we are ready to help.

Shybride2016

Some light reading which outlines a guide to new policies and procedures childcare settings will have to follow

https://www.canavanbyrne.ie/latest-news/practice-guidance-to-support-childcare-providers-to-reduce-the-risk-of-covid-%E2%80%93-19-transmission-in-their-services-version-1

VillageIdiot71

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Some light reading which outlines a guide to new policies and procedures childcare settings will have to follow

https://www.canavanbyrne.ie/latest-news/practice-guidance-to-support-childcare-providers-to-reduce-the-risk-of-covid-%E2%80%93-19-transmission-in-their-services-version-1

The advice seems quite confused, with a few "as far as possible"s thrown in about social distancing, where I'd guess it probably isn't possible at all.

What it seems to accept is that PPE and social distancing will not be possible, which sounds realistic. If a child or staff member shows symptoms, they'll be isolated and get s mask then. But, presumably, if that happens during the day, they'll have easily spent fifteen minutes within 2 metres of others.

So, as might be guessed, once the childcare services reopen, the quarantine is effectively over for all households involved in providing and using the service.

Shybride2016

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

The advice seems quite confused, with a few "as far as possible"s thrown in about social distancing, where I'd guess it probably isn't possible at all.

What it seems to accept is that PPE and social distancing will not be possible, which sounds realistic. If a child or staff member shows symptoms, they'll be isolated and get s mask then. But, presumably, if that happens during the day, they'll have easily spent fifteen minutes within 2 metres of others.

So, as might be guessed, once the childcare services reopen, the quarantine is effectively over for all households involved in providing and using the service.

I agree with you that social distancing in crèches and preschools is just not possible and therefore when they reopen, the staff, children and their parents are at increased risk of infection straight away.

Taking my own personal experience of working in a preschool, there are kids in every group who constantly have a runny nose, constantly sneeze and cough etc. They do not have the reflex to cover their noses and mouths when needed, nor the time to get a tissue before they sneeze.

Parents are under massive pressure from their workplaces to be in on time, no excuses. Child gets dropped off to us perhaps given a dose of Calpol/neurofen to ease symptoms/mask a temperature and they cross their fingers they won’t get a phone call from us to collect early. Many of our parents commute to work in city centre, at best 30 minutes-50 minutes drive away. Some work in jobs where they don’t have access to their phones apart from break times. We have been in a situation with a child who got sick several times in the classroom and their parent wasn’t contactable to collect. That tummy bug took nearly 6 weeks to completely clear from our school because kids were being sent in still sick or thought they were better but they weren’t. This is the reality of how quickly viruses spread among children in close contact.

Reading that document, while of course helpful, the reality of certain aspects, for example staggering start times - renders the whole exercise pointless.

Again, using my example, we have two sessions of 16 kids - it says that only one adult can accompany their child to the door - so now the adult has to leave their other kids in the car unaccompanied and out of sight while they queue to get in to us.

16 kids in, in say 5-minute intervals - how long does that take? The guts of an hour. Same at home time - stagger the leaving times - another hour - so the child is essentially getting a third of their actual time in preschool (1 hour of 3 ECCE hours) and the time spent queuing to get in and out is time where parents are rushing to get back to work? Is it really workable to ask parents to send their child in for an hour?

Not to mention that children may carry the illness but not display any symptoms themselves. The whole thing is a minefield and I completely understand why parents are anxious to get back to work without trying to juggle a job and looking after their child. However I’m happy to watch how other countries manage first and see what happens before we reopen ourselves. We will have no PPE, no social distancing, no fancy temperature-checking technology and lots and lots and lots of germs floating around.

Mrsmum

Even if creches/playschools/schools open, it's going to be a right mess and parents would almost still have to work from home as they will definitely be called to take their kids home if no little cough/ headache etc at all can be tolerated. Testing would have to be immediate to prevent many places and all the families involved having to go into quarantine over and over again. And as for cleaning, small kids chewing their toys and even their hands and touching everything. Some job to disinfect constantly. I think a lesser amount of children will have to be allocated places rather than more children for lesser hours. And then there is the whole question of keeping the staff and their families safe.

Shybride2016

Mrsmum wrote: »

Even if creches/playschools/schools open, it's going to be a right mess and parents would almost still have to work from home as they will definitely be called to take their kids home if no little cough/ headache etc at all can be tolerated. Testing would have to be immediate to prevent many places and all the families involved having to go into quarantine over and over again. And as for cleaning, small kids chewing their toys and even their hands and touching everything. Some job to disinfect constantly. I think a lesser amount of children will have to be allocated places rather than more children for lesser hours. And then there is the whole question of keeping the staff and their families safe.

Your point about taking less children is the one that breaks my heart the most. As mentioned above we have 16 in each class - how is it decided who stays and who can’t come back? Heartbreaking for us 💔

Mrsmum

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Your point about taking less children is the one that breaks my heart the most. As mentioned above we have 16 in each class - how is it decided who stays and who can’t come back? Heartbreaking for us ��

You sound like the kind of childcare worker any parent would kill for. I think it would be the pragmatic thing to do but yes emotional for those involved.

Shybride2016

Mrsmum wrote: »

You sound like the kind of childcare worker any parent would kill for. I think it would be the pragmatic thing to do but yes emotional for those involved.

I’m definitely not unique in how much I love my job and the kids I’m lucky enough to look after.

Lowering ratios is definitely the most practical strategy in any effort to maximise social distancing in some capacity but we’ll have to wait and see what they (DCYA) come up with.

faceman

From RTÉ news today. Hopefully this will influence decisions

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0513/1138100-hiqa-coronavirus-review/

deisedevil

Has anyone managed to actually have an application put through correctly yet? Do you have a child minder coming to your home on the 18th as promised by Minister Zappone?

I've been trying to arrange this and have met road block after road block. The body dealing with this told me initially last week that they had been given no info on this scheme when the announcement was made. This week they were told that we were to fill out an essential workers form. I found out then that the form doesn't exist. It hasn't been created yet. I'm waiting for someone to call me back to discuss it further.

Then I see this on RTE:

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0513/1138164-concerns-about-childcare-scheme-for-healthcare-workers/

What a disaster! Once again this government announces a fix to a coronavirus related problem but have done absolutely none of the leg work before announcing it to ensure it will actually work. This is supposed to start Monday, but how?

Has anyone got any further than I have?

whiskeyman

faceman wrote: »

From RTÉ news today. Hopefully this will influence decisions

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0513/1138100-hiqa-coronavirus-review/

Such reports have been out for the past few weeks.
If schools do get back, you can't have hundreds of parents all waiting outside to collect their kids though.
Still plenty of organise and consider.
Ridiculous that many schools have no hot water.

Jeaimi

faceman wrote: »

From RTÉ news today. Hopefully this will influence decisions

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0513/1138100-hiqa-coronavirus-review/

This is not new information and it doesn't change how complicated a problem opening creches is.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/twelve-children-infected-with-covid-19-in-quebecs-first-daycare-outbreak?fbclid=IwAR0NwN5AuSxGbTRNE5le1J83mfDcPxZe9-X5pYN25e_IEjz6VCS6-Xzs65Q
Last week in Quebec, 12 out 27 children infected and 4 workers. They fully expect more outbreaks in daycare centres now. That's the pattern we're going to see- creches opening and then closing for two weeks. It's gonna be messy and without more investment the sector will go under.

Jeaimi

deisedevil wrote: »

Has anyone managed to actually have an application put through correctly yet? Do you have a child minder coming to your home on the 18th as promised by Minister Zappone?

I've been trying to arrange this and have met road block after road block. The body dealing with this told me initially last week that they had been given no info on this scheme when the announcement was made. This week they were told that we were to fill out an essential workers form. I found out then that the form doesn't exist. It hasn't been created yet. I'm waiting for someone to call me back to discuss it further.

Then I see this on RTE:

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0513/1138164-concerns-about-childcare-scheme-for-healthcare-workers/

What a disaster! Once again this government announces a fix to a coronavirus related problem but have done absolutely none of the leg work before announcing it to ensure it will actually work. This is supposed to start Monday, but how?

Has anyone got any further than I have?

The scheme is scrapped now, providers wouldn't go for. Insurance being one of the main issues. Insurance will be an issue for the opening of creches and after-schools too. Can't open without it. It's all up in the air!

Jeaimi

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Some light reading which outlines a guide to new policies and procedures childcare settings will have to follow

https://www.canavanbyrne.ie/latest-news/practice-guidance-to-support-childcare-providers-to-reduce-the-risk-of-covid-%E2%80%93-19-transmission-in-their-services-version-1

Thanks for that, have you seen this?

https://www.earlychildhoodireland.ie/update-reopening-of-early-years-settings-2020/

Jeaimi

Mrsmum wrote: »

Even if creches/playschools/schools open, it's going to be a right mess and parents would almost still have to work from home as they will definitely be called to take their kids home if no little cough/ headache etc at all can be tolerated. Testing would have to be immediate to prevent many places and all the families involved having to go into quarantine over and over again. And as for cleaning, small kids chewing their toys and even their hands and touching everything. Some job to disinfect constantly. I think a lesser amount of children will have to be allocated places rather than more children for lesser hours. And then there is the whole question of keeping the staff and their families safe.

You've nailed it right down to the disinfecting. We really need to be able to give the children our full attention and I'm hoping they'll recognise the need to hire cleaners or recruit more CE workers to help with those type of tasks. It sounds like a small thing but it really matters and would be very helpful. The devil is in the details.

r93kaey5p2izun

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-cancels-childcare-scheme-for-frontline-workers-999408.html

The scheme to provide childcare for frontline workers has now been cancelled.

emo72

Amirah Kind Tuition wrote: »

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-cancels-childcare-scheme-for-frontline-workers-999408.html

The scheme to provide childcare for frontline workers has now been cancelled.

Zappone is a disaster, an idiot, an insult to us. That ****ing plan she came up with is a fuc#ing joke. Someone please pull her out of that department and send her back to Seattle. We've. Had. Enough.

Salty

I don't work in the childcare sector, however, I am an allied health professional who works primarily with children with developmental difficulties.

Certainly, PPE and social distancing is pretty much impossible with young children. I have ordered a few colourful cotton masks that I can change in between each child, which I hope will be less intimidating for them. I regularly get drooled on/spit on/snotted on etc. It's part of the job!

I also agree with the sentiments around employers expecting parents to work as if they don't have children. It is insane and unsustainable, and this crisis has really highlighted this I think. I don't have children yet myself, and to be honest, the logistical nightmare of modern parenting is causing me to lean more and more towards a child-free life...

Someone mentioned the need for employers to be more accommodating of parents regarding paid sick leave etc. I wholeheartedly agree, but would stipulate that this is actually something which needs to be addressed for all employees regardless of whether or not they are parents. Considering that any of us can now be sent home at any time by our employer if we develop any suspect symptoms, I think it is essential that paid sick leave become the norm across all sectors to protect employees. It would prevent people from being financially penalised for becoming ill, and also protect everyone else from being exposed by incentivising a potential covid patient to stay at home. This may be particularly pertinent for those of us working in close contact with lots of different children and families in our line of work.

Minier81

Shybride2016 wrote: »

Your point about taking less children is the one that breaks my heart the most. As mentioned above we have 16 in each class - how is it decided who stays and who can’t come back? Heartbreaking for us 💔

With widespread unemployment many parents will surely withdraw their kids from creche, surely they could not afford the fees especially if they have more than one child.

Shybride2016

Minier81 wrote: »

With widespread unemployment many parents will surely withdraw their kids from creche, surely they could not afford the fees especially if they have more than one child.

That absolutely is a very strong possibility and happened in the last recession. I’m working in a preschool where the ECCE scheme is run so nobody pays any fees to attend and we are full for September 2020 since last October. 32 children are booked to attend. If social distancing means reduced ratios, how do we choose who doesn’t come back?

ThunbergsAreGo

emo72 wrote: »

Zappone is a disaster, an idiot, an insult to us. That ****ing plan she came up with is a fuc#ing joke. Someone please pull her out of that department and send her back to Seattle. We've. Had. Enough.

But but same sex marriage...... Agreed she's useless, just look at the site all about Sam and very little about what she has done as minister.

Alot of doom here, hoping against hope that they open on time, mine are really missing the interaction with other children

racersedge

The sector has received next to no guidance on how many I go about reopening from what I understand. Viral images of how countries such as France are handling a child’s social distancing isn’t helping matters either. Children are social beings, particularly those in pre-school. At least for school going children, you can at least try to rationalise with them about social distancing. No chance of that with the younger cohort (yet we are the ones back first while we hear rumblings of how schools are going to struggle in September).

I imagine we will have to see reduced ratios come the return. Smaller groups that are kept together throughout the day to avoid mixing. Staggered outdoor times as well to avoid mixing. I would fear, as one of a number of degree qualified early years educators, is that we are going to become part-time cleaners as we will have to disinfect regularly.

I would also question how do settings ensure they can bring back the staff team if the return of children is staggered. We are in a profession where our relationships with the children are crucial for their security and well-being (another reason among others the Frontline Childcare Scheme was always going to fail). It’s not simple a case of saying you can have a different educator each day for a child. That’s not best practice for their well-being and development. So for the benefit of the child, they need consistency, which would mean a regular educator. Begs the question what do you do with the other members of the team, particularly with a reduced income of ratios are reduced.

Again, we have to play the wait and see to what guidelines we are going to be given to plan a proper re-opening in Phase 3. All these missteps and failures by the DCYA have me thinking that the government is purposely wanting to have egg in their face to support their proposed plans of ditching the department.

colombes

Just joining the conversation, I have not read all the previous posts.
I don't understand why we can't have a step approach and reopen at least day care facilities for older kids from 4years old from 18th May.
If they wear a mask and wash their hands. They could even only go 2 days per week. The cost loss to be compensated by government.
We are underestimating the mental health impact on kids and parents to stay isolated for so long (of course for the ones respecting the rules).
Plus we all know that people will have no choice than asking help to grand parents if stuck to go back to work which is not a good solution.
Then we could review in a month and decide for the younger ages.
I have been respecting rules from day one but now I feel that it is over the top especially outside Dublin region.

salmocab

colombes wrote: »

Just joining the conversation, I have not read all the previous posts.
I don't understand why we can't have a step approach and reopen at least day care facilities for older kids from 4years old from 18th May.
If they wear a mask and wash their hands. They could even only go 2 days per week. The cost loss to be compensated by government.
We are underestimating the mental health impact on kids and parents to stay isolated for so long (of course for the ones respecting the rules).
Plus we all know that people will have no choice than asking help to grand parents if stuck to go back to work which is not a good solution.
Then we could review in a month and decide for the younger ages.
I have been respecting rules from day one but now I feel that it is over the top especially outside Dublin region.

Well the rates of infection and deaths coming down would suggest that the measures have not been over the top.
It’s too early to bring kids in because the kids that really need crèche are too young to social distance and wear masks. My 5 year old certainly couldn’t be made wear a mask all day and not touch his friends.

deisedevil

I'm furious this morning. My wife is in healthcare and I'm in Pharma. We both have to work. Pure struggle trying to get childminders. Was praying the creches would be back soon and then this scheme came along. Could tell from early on that there was no thought gone into it. Just another one of the schemes this government have been putting out there in the media that they haven't actually set up before announcing it. A lot of what they promised to do for nursing homes has also not been followed through on. The payments, the extra healthcare workers from HSE, the PPE, all up in the air and just more empty promises. As soon as an issue becomes the latest hot topic they come out with an announcement that they have it resolved but the reality is they are throwing out solutions that have not been worked on at all. More lies. But there's plenty people out there telling us Leo, Simon and their colleagues are doing a great job.

ThunbergsAreGo

deisedevil wrote: »

I'm furious this morning. My wife is in healthcare and I'm in Pharma. We both have to work. Pure struggle trying to get childminders. Was praying the creches would be back soon and then this scheme came along. Could tell from early on that there was no thought gone into it. Just another one of the schemes this government have been putting out there in the media that they haven't actually set up before announcing it. A lot of what they promised to do for nursing homes has also not been followed through on. The payments, the extra healthcare workers from HSE, the PPE, all up in the air and just more empty promises. As soon as an issue becomes the latest hot topic they come out with an announcement that they have it resolved but the reality is they are throwing out solutions that have not been worked on at all. More lies. But there's plenty people out there telling us Leo, Simon and their colleagues are doing a great job.

Werent the government supposedly furious at Zappone for doing a solo run on this before all the details were finalised?

salmocab

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Werent the government supposedly furious at Zappone for doing a solo run on this before all the details were finalised?

I don’t know about that but her handling has been inept from the start, she seems to have a habit of announcing things before there are any details hammered out. She has been a disastrous minister and whilst I’ve no love of the big parties this is why the likes of her and Ross shouldn’t be given ministries as they can go off on solo runs as their ministry is guaranteed by their vote for the government.

deisedevil

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Werent the government supposedly furious at Zappone for doing a solo run on this before all the details were finalised?

Seriously? What a plank. How could she go and announce something that was only an idea and nothing like a workable solution. After she announced it I spoke to Pobal, my creche owner and some others. All said they were taken aback by the announcement and had no idea how this was going to work. They never bothered to go through this with the providers of the proposed service. Some parents are hanging on to Frontline and essential jobs by their fingernails. They are desperate for a solution to childcare. If this isn't resolved soon then we will have even bigger problems. Zappone should go now. Regardless of the times we live in this is unforgivable and she is not capable.