Nissan Leaf battery upgrade

SlowBlowin

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Hi there

Sounds great, I think the Nissan Leaf could be a great 2nd hard car with decent replacement batteries.

I notice that these batteries were not designed for cars, and many sellers of the cells say "do not use on EVs", like this one:

https://www.lithium-batterypack.com/sale-12344365-100-original-lg-chem-n21-polymer-lipo-lithium-ion-battery-cell-3-7v-60ah-durable.html

I wonder why they say do not use for EV ? Is it due to the construction not being rigid like most EV batteries ? Has anyone made an EV battery with these and driven it for 10K or more, I looked but could not find any ?

I am not trying to knock your business, but I have concerns about these cells in an EV, as I am sure most buyers would, and before spending 7K I would like to know why sellers say dont use in an EV, or how you make as strong module to make them suitable ?


EDIT: I notice there is a huge number of these cells on the surplus market that were packaged (2 per module) for EVs, they have been cut to get them out of the manufactured battery (2 mountings cut off). If these are the cells you are using my only question is do you know when they were originally made and who for ?

+ a 2 year warranty is not a lot for 7K, is it mileage limited ?

OP only "thinks they are perfect for EV" ???

Add to that LG do not allow their cells to be installed in cars without some form of cooling and we all know the leaf has no form of cooling and heat is a big killer of batteries which is why the Leaf batteries loose capacity faster.

To be honest and I'm not saying this out of badness but we know nothing about the OP business or history and like I've seen in the USA when People were having their Prius converted to Lithium, a lot of the battery suppliers went out of business and People got badly burned, now I'm not suggesting for 1 second Pszemo has any bad intentions whatsoever but sh1t happens that maybe beyond his control.

I would never buy a leaf again as long as it has no form of thermal management and again, I make the point that I do not know of any EV with LG cells that has no form of cooling.

If People want to take a gamble on their money on this so be it but I think the OP should in fairness be more open as to the supplier of his cells and offer something better than 2 years for a warranty, that is, if he is still in business in 2 years, if not............

No one knows how old these cells are, what condition they were kept, what voltage they were stored at, what temperature they were stored at, or their history, all this is crucial.

My advice, pay the money and get a proper Nissan battery with a warranty, you know Nissan are going to be around a long time and you'll know the battery is brand new. If you want more range then buy a longer range EV that still has a warranty on the battery.

highdef

pszemo wrote: »

From 2013 Nissan leaf got few improvements. Please use Google for research. Thanks

OK, good point. I picked a bad selection of years. Would similar mileage be expected from a 2013 (post improvement) Leaf and a 152 Leaf, such as the one in my household, which is also the 24 kwh version?

I'm guessing that when you mention 2011, you mean from launch to when the improvements were made in 2013. The for 2013, you mean from when the improvements were made that year until 2016. Not sure what happened in 2016 though.....further improvements when the 30 kwh battery pack was made available?

Do you have any examples of Leafs that have been worked on by you? Maybe some videos of the car being driven, an example of the GOM showing how many km are left before empty, etc?

I really am intrigued by your venture and hoping it's a successful thing as you may well be creating an excellent niche market arriving at an excellent time, economy wise.

SlowBlowin

Does any one know what would happen in case of fire, would your insurance cover you ?

I assume this would be classified as a modification so you would have to inform the insurer.

Shefwedfan

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Does any one know what would happen in case of fire, would your insurance cover you ?

I assume this would be classified as a modification so you would have to inform the insurer.

Would you?



Do you need to inform your insurance if you put a bigger petrol tank on car?



I dont know the answer but I dont see how the fuel would affect the car, your not putting in a bigger motor.

SlowBlowin

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Do you sell batteries for use for Solar?

Just use google there are loads of these on the surplus market...

SlowBlowin

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Would you?



Do you need to inform your insurance if you put a bigger petrol tank on car?



I dont know the answer but I dont see how the fuel would affect the car, your not putting in a bigger motor.

Bad analogy - its easy to make a battery that overheats and explodes, making a petrol tank bigger or smaller does not carry the same risk.

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No you can't....but you can convert it

I know you can but are you going to be able to do that yourself. The OP can supply you with modules but doesnt appear to be providing a service where they can be slotted into a home storage solution.

Im just wondering what you will do with it when he hands you one?

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

I know you can but are you going to be able to do that yourself. The OP can supply you with modules but doesnt appear to be providing a service where they can be slotted into a home storage solution.

Im just wondering what you will do with it when he hands you one?

Well first they will be placed in the shed.....then I will work it out


One thing at a time, I have a shed full of great ideas!! some work, some don't

pszemo

Please look at data sheet that I'm getting from LG.
It's not only me that think they are good for EV.
Thanks

SlowBlowin

pszemo wrote: »

Please look at data sheet that I'm getting from LG.
It's not only me that think they are good for EV.
Thanks

There are a large number of these cells that were rejected by GM for the Bolt, and they all had two of the mounting lugs cut off when they were taken out. When I saw your picture in the first post I noticed that all yours were mounted using only two screws, so I assumed you were using the bolt modules. You can see them here:

https://batteryhookup.com/products/new-lg-chem-n2-1-3-7v-120ah-cell-module


Are you really assembling a complete battery from these raw pouch cells ?

Cells are only part of the story, how safe and reliable a battery performs is largely determined by its construction, as the data sheet says.

So if you are assembling these raw LG pouch cells into your own design of module, can you tells us more about that, how are connections made, is the BMS modified etc...

Do you know how an insurance company reacts to a car with your battery ?

Thanks

pszemo

SlowBlowin wrote: »

There are a large number of these cells that were rejected by GM for the Bolt, and they all had two of the mounting lugs cut off when they were taken out. When I saw your picture in the first post I noticed that all yours were mounted using only two screws, so I assumed you were using the bolt modules. You can see them here:

https://batteryhookup.com/products/new-lg-chem-n2-1-3-7v-120ah-cell-module


Are you really assembling a complete battery from these raw pouch cells ?

Cells are only part of the story, how safe and reliable a battery performs is largely determined by its construction, as the data sheet says.

So if you are assembling these raw LG pouch cells into your own design of module, can you tells us more about that, how are connections made, is the BMS modified etc...

Do you know how an insurance company reacts to a car with your battery ?

Thanks

I will explain everything to person who will be interested in upgrade and I will show how conection looks and BMS is working
Thanks

SlowBlowin

pszemo wrote: »

I will explain everything to person who will be interested in upgrade and I will show how conection looks and BMS is working
Thanks

So you are not willing to explain on here, why not ?

I would imagine most people, like me, would want to know about the construction beforehand ?

I am interested but I have the concerns I mentioned, origin of cells, module construction, and if they are insurable/what cost as they are not a standard module that has passed safety testing etc ?

pszemo

SlowBlowin wrote: »

So you are not willing to explain on here, why not ?

I would imagine most people, like me, would want to know about the construction beforehand ?

I am interested but I have the concerns I mentioned, origin of cells, module construction, and if they are insurable/what cost as they are not a standard module that has passed safety testing etc ?

My modules are connected with 2 bolts and high quality copper. I have tested them. There is oryginal BMS, Alle security system is in place.
In case of the accident the insurance company will not disassemble the battery. I have not made any changes to the car. That's my opinion
Thanks

unkel

SlowBlowin wrote: »

There are a large number of these cells that were rejected by GM for the Bolt, and they all had two of the mounting lugs cut off when they were taken out. When I saw your picture in the first post I noticed that all yours were mounted using only two screws, so I assumed you were using the bolt modules. You can see them here:

https://batteryhookup.com/products/new-lg-chem-n2-1-3-7v-120ah-cell-module


Are you really assembling a complete battery from these raw pouch cells ?

Those are the ones that DavidPoz was using a few weeks ago, right? He had a hard time connecting them up. I decided there and then that I never want to work with pouches myself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzPUFcXM89c

I'm not saying in any way that the OP is using these used pouches, but only he can confirm that.

slave1

SlowBlowin wrote: »

So you are not willing to explain on here, why not ?

I would imagine most people, like me, would want to know about the construction beforehand ?

I am interested but I have the concerns I mentioned, origin of cells, module construction, and if they are insurable/what cost as they are not a standard module that has passed safety testing etc ?

Not willing to explain his business process on the WWW, would not blame him.
Try getting Tesla to tell you want they've done to your car and you're going down an endless road as they just won't give details especially on reconditioned battery/motors.
If not happy then don't go for it.
Well done OP, I'll be monitoring for my replacement in 2030, don't go and retire now!!!

SlowBlowin

pszemo wrote: »

My modules are connected with 2 bolts and high quality copper. I have tested them. There is oryginal BMS, Alle security system is in place.
In case of the accident the insurance company will not disassemble the battery. I have not made any changes to the car. That's my opinion
Thanks

OK thanks for the info.

The LG cells are pouch cells, as the datasheet you posted says:

"The aluminium pouch is easy to get damaged with metallic enclosure, the cell module structure should be free from any sharp edge"

I am trying to understand how you make them into a module ? How are the modules constructed.. or are you getting pre-made modules that look like the ones in the link I posted ?

Although you say you have not made any changes to the car, I think an insurer would have a different view. The picture you posted looks far from standard. I believe this is the reason that the vast majority of EV conversion companies use Tesla modules, they are self contained, have passed relevant safety checks and insurers like them.

I think this is a really great project, and I would like to clarify the module thing, if you have a good design its something I might consider.

I think its risky to offer this as a professional service, unless maybe you sell it as a kit to remove liabilities from yourself. You only need one of these to burst into flames in a crash and the liability is all yours. I really think you should contact an insurer and ask them, relying on them not looking inside might be OK for a personal project, but not if you are offering it as a service.

oinkely

I'll be watching this space too. Currently have a 132 Tekna with 6.6 charger and barring active cruise control it is absolutely perfect for our needs. Battery health is good, still has all 12 bars and leaf spy reads around 87 to 89%. When the time comes i would rather put a few quid into a new battery than buy an entirely new car. The leaf is a great car, nippy enough, roomy enough and cheap enough that a battery upgrade would make it stay on our driveway for a long time.

Shefwedfan

SlowBlowin wrote: »

So you are not willing to explain on here, why not ?

I would imagine most people, like me, would want to know about the construction beforehand ?

I am interested but I have the concerns I mentioned, origin of cells, module construction, and if they are insurable/what cost as they are not a standard module that has passed safety testing etc ?

No person in their right mind would start discussing his business on here.....no matter what you put up here people will fight it and throw out all sorted of comments, True or not.


The guy is trying to do a service that people for years have been crying out for. You seem to have little interest in buying the service so what difference is it to you>?

SlowBlowin

slave1 wrote: »

Not willing to explain his business process on the WWW, would not blame him.
Try getting Tesla to tell you want they've done to your car and you're going down an endless road as they just won't give details especially on reconditioned battery/motors.
If not happy then don't go for it.
Well done OP, I'll be monitoring for my replacement in 2030, don't go and retire now!!!

So its against Board rules to post details how to modify an ebike out of legal limits as its "encouraging breaking the law". But offering a service to modify an electric car, making your insurance invalid and saying "they wont look inside", is acceptable ?

OK wont post on this thread again, but I am genuinely interested in this as a project.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No person in their right mind would start discussing his business on here.....no matter what you put up here people will fight it and throw out all sorted of comments, True or not.


The guy is trying to do a service that people for years have been crying out for. You seem to have little interest in buying the service so what difference is it to you>?

He should give more detail about his company, how long he's doing these battery mods etc.

People are curious, he has no reputation good or bad that he can share, asking people to part with their hard earned with no backup to prove this is a success asking People to buy batteries with no proof of capacity, God knows where they came from, what condition they are in, what conditions they were stored etc all very important stuff.

He comes onto a public forum and People are going to ask questions and going to say things he might not want to hear but it pails in comparison as to what will happen if those cells are dodgy in any way.

+ he wants to put these cells into a car with no thermal management ? this is nuts, LG do not allow their cells in cars with no thermal protection because they will provide no warranty in such circumstances.

What happens if people connect up Leaf Spy and it tells them they're 5 Kwh down on what the OP says etc etc there is so much that can go wrong and I am a bit paranoid because of the issues a lot of People in the US had when converting their prius to Lithium.

Is he a sole trader or a limited company ? if he's a limited company then he's protected and can file for bankruptcy and the Person who shelled out so much money gets screwed.

Why is it so bad to ask all these questions after all the OP came on here.....

KCross

Nissan were supposedly offering a refurbished battery at much reduced cost, starting last year.

https://insideevs.com/news/337360/nissan-introduces-2850-refabricated-batteries-for-older-leaf/

I wonder did that get off the ground or is it just in Japan?



I'd be concerned about any back street installs/upgrades, especially if your questions arent being answered. I'd need to see pics, references, websites. €7k is not an insignificant sum to be handing over without some scrutiny.

This isnt at all the same as an indie mechanic working on an ICE.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

He should give more detail about his company, how long he's doing these battery mods etc.

People are curious, he has no reputation good or bad that he can share, asking people to part with their hard earned with no backup to prove this is a success asking People to buy batteries with no proof of capacity, God knows where they came from, what condition they are in, what conditions they were stored etc all very important stuff.

He comes onto a public forum and People are going to ask questions and going to say things he might not want to hear but it pails in comparison as to what will happen if those cells are dodgy in any way.

+ he wants to put these cells into a car with no thermal management ? this is nuts, LG do not allow their cells in cars with no thermal protection because they will provide no warranty in such circumstances.

What happens if people connect up Leaf Spy and it tells them they're 5 Kwh down on what the OP says etc etc there is so much that can go wrong and I am a bit paranoid because of the issues a lot of People in the US had when converting their prius to Lithium.

Is he a sole trader or a limited company ? if he's a limited company then he's protected and can file for bankruptcy and the Person who shelled out so much money gets screwed.

Why is it so bad to ask all these questions after all the OP came on here.....

I think the OP said he would discuss them all face to face


On a public forum you will have people who have zero interest in buying the solution just trying to be arkward. that's why I wouldnt oput up a huge amount of details.

beauf

I think we are all fascinated, and wish him the best.

But we are obsessed with the details, all the details, thats just who we are. Nothing is zero risk.

pszemo

unkel wrote: »

Those are the ones that DavidPoz was using a few weeks ago, right? He had a hard time connecting them up. I decided there and then that I never want to work with pouches myself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzPUFcXM89c

I'm not saying in any way that the OP is using these used pouches, but only he can confirm that.

Off course I use only brand new cells. 👍
See attached photo

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think the OP said he would discuss them all face to face


On a public forum you will have people who have zero interest in buying the solution just trying to be arkward. that's why I wouldnt oput up a huge amount of details.

It's not good enough that he can't provide evidence on the forum he decided to just say "hey guys, I'm installing new batteries in cars, come to me and spend your money" I'll tell you all about it when you come to me ? that's bollocks.

If he can't take criticism on a public forum then he shouldn't be in business, or did he think posting in an EV forum would get everyone all excited and rush out to spend their money and upgrade their batteries ? it doesn't work that way in the real world, if he thinks we're being too hard on him I can tell you it will pale in comparison to what will happen if it doesn't work out or if there are issues with the batteries or if he can't provide warranty backup or he goes bust, these are risks, it's not like going to Nissan and getting a new battery from them, in fact Nissan themselves have screwed people with their sub standard batteries and fail to this day to even install rock bottom basic fan cooling, a big corporation like Nissan ? People suffering premature degradation as a result.

If the OP is a limited company then then his customers are taking all the risk while he files for bankruptcy and walks away if the sh1t hits the fan so forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical. Even if he's a soul trader it's unlikely the customer could recoup the costs and if he's a non national he can flee the jurisdiction.

Look, I hope this works out because this is what EV owners need and will need into the future but the OP has a lot of convincing to do and I suggest anyone thinking of parting money for unknown quality cells from damaged vehicles with unknown mileage, conditions of use from a manufacturer of cells that would not recommend installation with no thermal management. While Nissan have altered their chemistry to withstand more heat over the years, which hasn't been a huge success. LG may not because they wouldn't need to in a vehicle with thermal management. In other words, LG cells may perform worse in a car with no thermal management, degradation could be accelerated.

At the very least if the OP wants to start this business then he should show some good will towards those willing to part with their cash and offer a much better than 2 year warranty, but he probably can't because the cells will have been used for God knows how long......

pszemo

pszemo wrote: »

Off course I use only brand new cells. 👍
See attached photo

How do we know ? prove it. Can your supplier prove it ?

pszemo

Deleted User wrote: »

How do we know ? prove it. Can your supplier prove it ?

Here is my last invoice for the cells.
I waiting for Can bus device to be delivered and then I will upload more pictures.
Thanks

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not good enough that he can't provide evidence on the forum he decided to just say "hey guys, I'm installing new batteries in cars, come to me and spend your money" I'll tell you all about it when you come to me ? that's bollocks.

If he can't take criticism on a public forum then he shouldn't be in business, or did he think posting in an EV forum would get everyone all excited and rush out to spend their money and upgrade their batteries ? it doesn't work that way in the real world, if he thinks we're being too hard on him I can tell you it will pale in comparison to what will happen if it doesn't work out or if there are issues with the batteries or if he can't provide warranty backup or he goes bust, these are risks, it's not like going to Nissan and getting a new battery from them, in fact Nissan themselves have screwed people with their sub standard batteries and fail to this day to even install rock bottom basic fan cooling, a big corporation like Nissan ? People suffering premature degradation as a result.

If the OP is a limited company then then his customers are taking all the risk while he files for bankruptcy and walks away if the sh1t hits the fan so forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical. Even if he's a soul trader it's unlikely the customer could recoup the costs and if he's a non national he can flee the jurisdiction.

Look, I hope this works out because this is what EV owners need and will need into the future but the OP has a lot of convincing to do and I suggest anyone thinking of parting money for unknown quality cells from damaged vehicles with unknown mileage, conditions of use from a manufacturer of cells that would not recommend installation with no thermal management. While Nissan have altered their chemistry to withstand more heat over the years, which hasn't been a huge success. LG may not because they wouldn't need to in a vehicle with thermal management. In other words, LG cells may perform worse in a car with no thermal management, degradation could be accelerated.

At the very least if the OP wants to start this business then he should show some good will towards those willing to part with their cash and offer a much better than 2 year warranty, but he probably can't because the cells will have been used for God knows how long......

How many multi national companies publish details of products on a public forum and then read the comments :P

pszemo

pszemo wrote: »

Here is my last invoice for the cells.
I waiting for Can bus device to be delivered and then I will upload more pictures.
Thanks

That invoice shows nothing and proves nothing.

But, lets say you wanted some boards.ie members to shell out cash on a high risk battery upgrade, then how about offering some long term Boards.ie members a battery upgrade at half price, then they can provide data here for us to witness and if it all works out well then you stand to make much more than what you'd loose on offering a battery upgrade at half price.

+ a higher warranty would only be fair if you want your customers to take all the risk.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many multi national companies publish details of products on a public forum and then read the comments :P

There's no one asking a multinational to prove themselves here but you can't expect someone to show up out of the blue with 24 posts and expect Boards.ie members just to swallow this battery upgrade and not question it or ask the OP for evidence or proof of success ? Proof of cell source, i.e the original supplier, the history of the cells, surely this is not too much to ask if someone was handing over 7-10K and taking all the risk ?

So what would you say to a boards.ie member here if they shelled out their hard earned and got burned ?

Is he looking for cash up front ?

Asking to provide company details, length of time in business etc isn't at all unfair or unusual considering the circumstances, we know absolutely nothing about this guy or his business, history etc.