Nissan Leaf battery upgrade

unkel

KCross wrote: »

You’re right, it’s not worth €7k on a <€7k worth car. It would be mad money to spend.

Let's say your early Leaf is severely degraded. Worth about €4k. Let's say you're allowed €1.5k trade in for your old battery. That means you can have a Leaf, a very reliable EV, with a brand new much longer range battery, for €4k -/- €1.5k + €7k = €9.5k

Seems like an ok deal to me. It's thousands less than you could get a L30 for (which has less range and a battery that's already 4 years old, so a good bit degraded already). And the next step up for a car with a similar or slightly higher range than the upgraded Leaf is Ioniq, which would set you back €19k minimum, so very much out of reach for a lot of people

SlowBlowin

slave1 wrote: »

But the battery will not need to be replaced anywhere near it's ninth year, mine is now 4 years old at battery at 95% with nearly 70k kms on the clock and has not cost me a cent apart from two new tyres and four services (€77 a pop), car perfect in every way and still has two of it's original tyres on the rear.
I estimate that this car will need it's battery replaced in about 10-12yrs time but that's only if we want to maintain a circa 100km range, if we are happy as a runner around the town then we can keep it as it for another 5yrs+.
By then battery replacement will have come down in price considerably.

So in summary, we are looking to replace our Leaf battery after around 16years+ and by then it will be probably half current cost, nowhere near a costly car.

I think the OPs service, and most of the references in this thread are for early Leafs (2011-2012), the later ones had stronger batteries and as you say much better economics. I think in 16 years time a Leaf battery will be a specialist item as battery technology is advancing so fast.

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Let's say your early Leaf is severely degraded. Worth about €4k. Let's say you're allowed €1.5k trade in for your old battery. That means you can have a Leaf, a very reliable EV, with a brand new much longer range battery, for €4k -/- €1.5k + €7k = €9.5k

Seems like an ok deal to me. It's thousands less than you could get a L30 for (which has less range and a battery that's already 4 years old, so a good bit degraded already). And the next step up for a car with a similar or slightly higher range than the upgraded Leaf is Ioniq, which would set you back €19k minimum, so very much out of reach for a lot of people

Pretty much my plan for the wife's car, seems the best value route for a good EV second/village car..

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I’m not telling you what to do, you said you wanted to help potential customer, I just thought it might be useful for you to post those question

I am just offering the OP some advice, I work in sales and I know the last place you want to be discussing your services is on a public forum. You could be curing cancer and people would still find fault

As per my post, go straight to your potential customer base and Leaf has a number of user groups on Facebook. Also you talk to a real person which means you won’t get the trolls you have on here, not saying you are one Mad-lad

I wouldn’t be taking a hit on boards, take a hit on Facebook or part of one of the groups. Boards is good but should not be part of a business model

Why shouldn't boards be part of his business model ? there are leaf drivers here too you know, he came here announcing his services, he didn't provide company name etc, in fact provided absolutely nothing.

Facebook is full of atrocious trolls and far less civilised which is why I deleted my account, if he thinks boards is bad.........

I would very much hate to see many drivers of old Leafs shelling out up to 9 K a battery and the OP go bust or the batteries perform poorly and not stand by the warranty etc etc.

Why shouldn't people go to Nissan and just get the battery from a known major company that can stand by the warranty and you know they will ?

Is it unreasonable under the circumstances for the OP to provide battery upgrades for free in order to prove it's success or not ?

Sure I don't really care at the end of the day where he goes to provide free batteries to Irish EV owners or the Association but he could find dealing with certain individuals there very difficult but I'm sure they can report the success or not of the upgrades. Until there is evidence if success it's very very risky for someone to shell out up to 9 K to an unknown. But at the end of the day he came here first so naturally I suggest he come up with the goods here.

unkel

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Pretty much my plan for the wife's car, seems the best value route for a good EV second/village car..

There are some sweet price spots for Leafs imho. An early degraded one if you need very little range (second family car) for €4k-€5k. Or a new gen battery one for about €8-9k, or a L30 for about €11-12k. Or indeed a degraded early Leaf with a brand new battery for around €9k

Turbohymac

Turbohymac wrote: »

Never thought we'd agree ..
True words mad lad ..
Every vehicle has running costs ..but those early leafs seem to be a write off..
Who knows what ionics will be like either in 6 years time..a new broom and all that...

Depreciation is a killer on any EV particularly if you spec it up, you only get the book value of the basic model, however, the advantage in many cases could be the higher spec car is more attractive selling a lot faster.

Early leafs suffered massive depreciation, this is why I opted for PCP because it protected me, however, deprecation was so bad that the last time I checked PCP deals were so bad Nissan would not get bitten twice.

Ionics were in short supply this is what made them more attractive, faster charging and longer range. charging a 24 Kwh Leaf at a fast charger was painful.

Technology moves on and today we are still handicapped by expensive cars and poor charging infrastructure, the ESB for instance are still installing 50 Kw chargers and only 2 sites of 2 x 50 Kw chargers since 2011 but it just so happens that range has improved a lot, what was once 80-100 Kms for a gen I early Leaf is not 300-450 Kms but as a consequence a 400 Km EV is around 40K cheapest and it's the koreans who lead the way here for the average mans car but this is a real potential risk, depreciation could be massive for Kona and E-soul 64 Kwh drivers, E-niro etc because this is far well above the cost of the petrol and diesel versions. Time will tell.

So in reality someone with a leaf worth 6-7 K which is likely to be in perfect shape after even 170,000 kms 7-9 K for a 300 Km battery is not bad but only "if" the battery lasts and the more they drive the more they save and the less depreciation they will suffer, however the other issue here is if someone will be willing to buy an EV with an after market battery, another unknown.

SlowBlowin

SlowBlowin wrote: »

If the OP has a good, safe solution and can show it hes onto a winner ..

Not only show it but prove it works, provides the stated capacity and show it's been tested for xx miles etc years which he won't be able to, = more risk,

No thermal management = potential for premature degradation.

Start up business = high risk to customer.

So many risks. This is why offering a few free upgrades to prove it's success is what's needed.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Depreciation is a killer on any EV.

Nope. Depreciation on an EV, even a brand new one, can be minimal. Some people have scored negative depreciation even.

Shefwedfan

Depreciation is not a killer, I lost very little on my original eGolf

Current one will but that’s the lease company’s problem

The Leaf I bought for mother lost nothing on it when it went

My i3 is showing no notable loss after 3 years 2 months and 83,500 Kms.

It's estimated life is 550,000 Kms to 70%, time will tell of course. But the specs for the 33 kwh are amazing if they're to be believed.

64 Kwh Kona, E-soul etc will probably last a lot longer because they will be cycled far far less , the need in the future for battery upgrades will most likely only apply to Leafs but their 60 Kwh might last a long time simply because it's a big battery.

SlowBlowin

Deleted User wrote: »

Not only show it but prove it works, provides the stated capacity and show it's been tested for xx miles etc years which he won't be able to, = more risk,

No thermal management = potential for premature degradation.

Start up business = high risk to customer.

So many risks. This is why offering a few free upgrades to prove it's success is what's needed.

Not everyone's the same I guess, there are many people like ShefwedFan who would buy without knowing/wanting to know the details. Personally when I buy anything important I always look at the datasheet/specs, and if they are not available I ask, strange how thats offensive to some...

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Nope. Depreciation on an EV, even a brand new one, can be minimal. Some people have scored negative depreciation even.

Hows your Tesla S battery doing have you worked out % of new left ? Everything I have read points to them lasting ages...

Shefwedfan

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Not everyone's the same I guess, there are many people like ShefwedFan who would buy without knowing/wanting to know the details. Personally when I buy anything important I always look at the datasheet/specs, and if they are not available I ask, strange how thats offensive to some...

I go to the person and talk to them, ask for the spec, get references etc. Also talk to the references and get feedback

I know it’s a new concept but it’s called communication

As per my post, if someone is interested ring and visit the man/woman, talk to them

Bit sad people haven’t the ability to communicate face to face anymore, prefer to sit behind a keyboard with snide remarks

pszemo

Hi all. Hope you all doing OK. I'm not in the rush at all. Let's wait 1... or even 2 years. A was ask one of the members to join the boards. Off course I will not work for free. Took me over 1.5 year to figure out everything. I'm not long in the business. I'm am confident about my battery. Its not just about swaping a cells that's is the easiest part of the job. The whole battery pack need to be modified and calibrate and I will not share that information to anyone. On late September I gona start new battery and I will share some pictures here. I'm very happy and enjoying new battery.

SlowBlowin

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I go to the person and talk to them, ask for the spec, get references etc. Also talk to the references and get feedback

I know it’s a new concept but it’s called communication

As per my post, if someone is interested ring and visit the man/woman, talk to them

Bit sad people haven’t the ability to communicate face to face anymore, prefer to sit behind a keyboard with snide remarks

12 Hour trip to Dublin, talk, and back for me, in this age most people put the info on the internet.

Shefwedfan

SlowBlowin wrote: »

12 Hour trip to Dublin, talk, and back for me, in this age most people put the info on the internet.

It’s called a phone, it was invented a few years back

SlowBlowin

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It’s called a phone, it was invented a few years back

But you said visit them, face to face ?

Shefwedfan

pszemo wrote: »

Hi all. Hope you all doing OK. I'm not in the rush at all. Let's wait 1... or even 2 years. A was ask one of the members to join the boards. Off course I will not work for free. Took me over 1.5 year to figure out everything. I'm not long in the business. I'm am confident about my battery. Its not just about swaping a cells that's is the easiest part of the job. The whole battery pack need to be modified and calibrate and I will not share that information to anyone. On late September I gona start new battery and I will share some pictures here. I'm very happy and enjoying new battery.

Fair play to you, hope it works out for you. Good to see someone with a bit of initiative, spotting a gap in market and putting a service in place for it

Best to hit the specific Facebook sites etc and advertise

Also go to the specific electric car dealers like Electric Autos, have a chat with Phil and see if you could maybe partner. It could be quickest way to get business . Next Eco Cars etc are available as well and others....

SlowBlowin

pszemo wrote: »

Hi all. Hope you all doing OK. I'm not in the rush at all. Let's wait 1... or even 2 years. A was ask one of the members to join the boards. Off course I will not work for free. Took me over 1.5 year to figure out everything. I'm not long in the business. I'm am confident about my battery. Its not just about swaping a cells that's is the easiest part of the job. The whole battery pack need to be modified and calibrate and I will not share that information to anyone. On late September I gona start new battery and I will share some pictures here. I'm very happy and enjoying new battery.

Great news that you are going to give it a good test and report the findings, its best to back up confidence with real world numbers if you are selling the service. Are the old modules from the 2 batteries you have done disposed of now or are they for sale ?

unkel

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Hows your Tesla S battery doing have you worked out % of new left ? Everything I have read points to them lasting ages...

I don't know how much degradation I have, but it seems fairly minimal. The car had a 420km EPA rating when new and I get about 400km non-motorway and 300km motorway range at the speed limit.

pszemo wrote: »

I'm not in the rush at all. Let's wait 1... or even 2 years. A was ask one of the members to join the boards.

Disclosure: that was me. We got to chat on DoneDeal (can't remember how) and I said, come on boards and discuss what you are doing!

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Disclosure: that was me. We got to chat on DoneDeal (can't remember how) and I said, come on boards and discuss what you are doing!

As I told him hes done a great job, and testing and documenting it over a year is the way to go if he is going to personally commit to a two year warranty, if he gets busy thats a huge commitment.

SlowBlowin

People who are interested in upgrading/replacing leaf batteries will find this channel interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerElectronicsBlog/videos

Loads of info and testing..

SlowBlowin

Heres his web site, he offers 30kw swap for €6990 inc VAT.

https://muxsan.com/products.html#upgrade

Everything is covered 5 years of firmware updates, safety/security recalls for the life of the product, but they are based in the Netherlands.

DM1983

pszemo wrote: »

Hi all. Hope you all doing OK. I'm not in the rush at all. Let's wait 1... or even 2 years. A was ask one of the members to join the boards. Off course I will not work for free. Took me over 1.5 year to figure out everything. I'm not long in the business. I'm am confident about my battery. Its not just about swaping a cells that's is the easiest part of the job. The whole battery pack need to be modified and calibrate and I will not share that information to anyone. On late September I gona start new battery and I will share some pictures here. I'm very happy and enjoying new battery.

Wish you every success. Brilliant entrepreneurial move just at the right time. Don't listen to the nay sayers on here. Some people on boards can be very odd. I really hope that you make some great money from this over the years ahead.

Laviski

DM1983 wrote: »

Wish you every success. Brilliant entrepreneurial move just at the right time. Don't listen to the nay sayers on here. Some people on boards can be very odd. I really hope that you make some great money from this over the years ahead.

Totally agree
Wish you success on this

Shefwedfan

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Heres his web site, he offers 30kw swap for €6990 inc VAT.

https://muxsan.com/products.html#upgrade

Everything is covered 5 years of firmware updates, safety/security recalls for the life of the product, but they are based in the Netherlands.

If it takes you 12 hours to get to 12 how many to the NL :P:P

optimal

I think this is a fantastic initiative. I do have a Leaf 30 which I love and although I have 122k km on it I'm not seeing any real degradation with 12 bars still there, whatever sort of indicator that is. So I won't need this service for a bit I hope.
I think the questions are perfectly valid and I'm sure the OP is taking note of them as they will come up at some stage so effectively they're free advice.

I'm not really that technical so I take my hat off to posters like mad lad and unkel that are asking the hard questions. I don't think anyone is expecting the OP to divulge his secrets.

I know I would be concerned about insurance implications. It takes very little for an insurer to find a reason to decline a claim and I think something like this would be material and they should be notified. They could decline cover or load so I'd rather be checking it out before anything happens

But that's not to take away from what the OP is doing, its going to help values and improve the market if it works so I would say take the questions on board and use them.

slave1

optimal wrote: »

... I'm not seeing any real degradation with 12 bars still there, whatever sort of indicator that is..

It means your battery health is at least 85%

SlowBlowin

optimal wrote: »

I think this is a fantastic initiative. I do have a Leaf 30 which I love and although I have 122k km on it I'm not seeing any real degradation with 12 bars still there, whatever sort of indicator that is. So I won't need this service for a bit I hope.
I think the questions are perfectly valid and I'm sure the OP is taking note of them as they will come up at some stage so effectively they're free advice.

I'm not really that technical so I take my hat off to posters like mad lad and unkel that are asking the hard questions. I don't think anyone is expecting the OP to divulge his secrets.

I know I would be concerned about insurance implications. It takes very little for an insurer to find a reason to decline a claim and I think something like this would be material and they should be notified. They could decline cover or load so I'd rather be checking it out before anything happens

But that's not to take away from what the OP is doing, its going to help values and improve the market if it works so I would say take the questions on board and use them.

It seems all the tested, commercial replacements solutions are being offered in the Netherlands. At the moment Robert Llewellyn (Fully Charged) is having his Gen1 Leaf upgraded in the Netherlands for the fully charged Youtube show. He is going to do an episode on the process and I think he will detail all the things important for a Leaf upgrade. I hope OPs solution tests safe and reliable and hes able to offer a service in the future.

ReadySteadyGo

"Would car Insurance still be valid" is a significant concern for me.

Congratulations on the initiative! I'm a possibe future customer with an early gen 1 leaf.

If you are looking for a guinea pig, I would happily volunteer and would be happy to document the process and give regular updates!

I think it would be interesting to allow customers the choice to either keep their old battery or get a discount.

I think you could cross or upsell many folks
1. some form of chassis/mounting/container to easily use their old leaf battery as a solar battery for their house.
2. Battery reconditioning service of their existing battery. This would be seen as lower risk by many customers and would help build your reputation.