Nissan Leaf battery upgrade

pullandbang

zg3409 wrote: »

Having said all that an Irish guy I met swapped all his old leaf battery cells for newer less worn ones, and got increased range, no computers required, just a lot of spanner and cell swapping. After a few trips the car realised the cells held more charge and the reported range went up to match the cells installed.

See
https://www.tog.ie/2018/10/october-2018-social-battery-swap-in-electric-vehicle-talk/

If this could be a 2 hour pack swap, then labour would be minimal. Throw in a friendly engineers report, and a friendly insurance broker, then pedal to the metal.

The chap in that video, Jonathan, is a friend of mine. That battery swap was pretty easy for someone who had never done one before. Turned out a great job in the end and he's still driving his 2011 Leaf.

unkel

SlowBlowin wrote: »

Looks like he uses all Tesla or Nissan (Type approved) modules

Even for his €1000 BMW 3-series conversion?

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Even for his €1000 BMW 3-series conversion?

I have been watching his videos this morning and battery details are few and far between, but from what I have seen so far he only uses manufactured batteries.

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Even for his €1000 BMW 3-series conversion?

The "1000 euro" conversion uses these batteries:

https://lithiumwerks.com/products/modules/u-charge-xp/

Tested and certified batteries for commercial EV applications (buses etc)..

unkel

Valence! Told you they were good

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

Valence! Told you they were good

I know, and I still have not got mine !! Hes under strict orders that we get any he has spare..

I wonder what the sub 1000 euros refers to ? Just the capacitor in the controller's not far off that !!! Hes currently running 12 of those batteries too, thats a few grand surely !

unkel

It was supposed to be sub 1000, everything included, even the donor car (in fairness he probably got that for EUR100 tops )

But I have my doubts about that although he does seem to get stuff as favours and re-uses pretty worthless stuff and he must have raided his own stock of stuff too

SlowBlowin

This thread has demonstrated 2 things to me:

1. There is a distinct lack of clarity about the legalities of making your own battery and installing it. It seems that this is a very risky avenue to pursue as a commercial service.

2. There is a demand from Gen 1 leaf owners (and prospective owners) for a solution.

The OP is obviously very skilled in dissembling the Nissan battery, and its general construction. To my mind, if he wants to make money from his skills, then the less risky way would be to establish a supply of suitable Leaf batteries (later generation) and offer the replacement/upgrade service. I wonder how many of the batteries find their way to scrap yards and battery recycling centres ?

Markcheese

He's hardly making his own battery though is he ? He's assembling a pack of lg chem cells ,
( Although if many cells make a battery then I suppose he is )
And if those cells are manufacturer (lg) approved to work in certain tolerances ,and the leafs existing infrastructure fits those then is there a problem ?
Is it the difference between using a Bosch part in your vw versus the Bosch part that comes in a vw box ...?

SlowBlowin

Markcheese wrote: »

He's hardly making his own battery though is he ? He's assembling a pack of lg chem cells

Yes he is.

He is using from Nissan BMS and charging system, but the battery he has made.

There are no details of how the modules and battery are constructed, and its the construction that makes a battery safe or unsafe (fire risk etc).

Do you remember a while back when Samsung released the phone with the dodgy battery that burst into flames ? Imagine something with over 1000 times the power going up in flames. Fire risk is generally cased by shorts (the cells he is using are prone to this as they have a very soft pouch, LG stresses this point), or thermal issues cased by poor heat conduction in the design or the cells being used out of spec.

I am not saying the OPs battery is going to burst into flames, I dont know, no one does as its construction is unknown and its not been subjected to the relevant testing.

samih

Logged on to the boards the first time in a few months. This thread reminds me why I never login to boards anymore. I'll just log off now and leave yous to it.

OP, good luck with the business. I'm pretty sure I'll keep the current LEAF forever and at some stage it will need battery refresh which will will be a fraction of cost compared to a full new car. Much can be said about a mechanically very simple car that you can just keep driving and repairing as needed.

n97 mini

SlowBlowin wrote: »

This thread has demonstrated 2 things to me:

1. There is a distinct lack of clarity about the legalities of making your own battery and installing it. It seems that this is a very risky avenue to pursue as a commercial service.

Rather than speculate, it'd be better to be analytical. For example, a product can be self CE certified if all the components were already CE certified. There is probably more than just CE certification involved, so it'd be useful to know what that is.

n97 mini

samih wrote: »

Logged on to the boards the first time in a few months. This thread reminds me why I never login to boards anymore. I'll just log off now and leave yous to it.

OP, good luck with the business. I'm pretty sure I'll keep the current LEAF forever and at some stage it will need battery refresh which will will be a fraction of cost compared to a full new car. Much can be said about a mechanically very simple car that you can just keep driving and repairing as needed.

To be fair it's a lot more civilised in here than it is in most of the rest of the site, but there is a bit of nay saying. I'm sure the OP will find customers, maybe not mass market, but there is definitely a niche there.

SlowBlowin

n97 mini wrote: »

Rather than speculate, it'd be better to be analytical. For example, a product can be self CE certified if all the components were already CE certified. There is probably more than just CE certification involved, so it'd be useful to know what that is.

OK, so after reading your post I took your advice to end speculation and contacted several insurance companies advertising EV insurance. None would entertain quoting on the car without a full independent engineers report on the battery conversation and its construction, even then they said they would most likely not insure the car with the non Nissan/non automotive type approved battery.

The OPs first post was basically pay your money and I will do the conversion. No mention of the difficult/impossible task of insuring, the reduction in value of the car, and most importantly the safety aspects.

I guess all the flak on here is from people who dont mind having an uninsured car, are willing to risk peoples safety for the perceived financial savings, and happy to recommend that you keep it secret from your insurer (illegal). So please, rather than just give me grief, someone buy the conversation that you are so positive about and let us know your experiences.

It really would be a great to breath new life into early Leafs, but it seems the only legal route is to buy the OPs battery, hope its safe, and self insure the car (if you have a few million euros lying around). Alternatively buy a replacement Nissan battery conversation from the dutch companies.

It's amazing the negative comments towards the few of us who have questioned this venture and it's riskiness, will these who support the OP pay out if it all goes tits up for someone who shells out many thousands on an unproven battery not type approved and can't be insured ? or will they be the first to volunteer ? but perhaps it's all good info for the OP so he has something to think about. This could be an eye opener for him as to what to expect when dealing with the public not to mention a lawsuit should something happen.

So in reality this thread has been helpful to warn People of the risk so if they do install one of these batteries that to go in with their eyes wide open.

Stealthirl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Would you?

Do you need to inform your insurance if you put a bigger petrol tank on car?

Yes as it is a modification of the OEM spec and if you put a bigger petrol tank in an ICE it would be the same and might require an engineers report. Some insurance companies were freaking out over people putting winter/all season tyres on. Any excuse to not pay out....

pszemo

Just to be clear.... I'm not doing any conversations, I have replace old part from the car using original LG cells. No difference in power suspension, weight. If anyone can bring l40 or l62 leaf battery pack I can install
as well on older leaf.

kierank01

SlowBlowin wrote: »

It really would be a great to breath new life into early Leafs, but it seems the only legal route is to buy the OPs battery, hope its safe, and self insure the car (if you have a few million euros lying around). Alternatively buy a replacement Nissan battery conversation from the dutch companies.

What is it that the Dutch companies are doing differently that makes those ok?

I have only purchased a 2nd hand leaf, which has 12 bars of health(80% on leafspy), so not looking to do anything immediately.

have been looking at one Dutch company that are offering a number of upgrades including 11kw & 22kw charging options, the only mention, that I can see on testing/approval etc is one mention in a youtube video, that says they have got Dutch approval, which, they say, makes it EU approved.

pszemo

kierank01 wrote: »

What is it that the Dutch companies are doing differently that makes those ok?

I have only purchased a 2nd hand leaf, which has 12 bars of health(80% on leafspy), so not looking to do anything immediately.

have been looking at one Dutch company that are offering a number of upgrades including 11kw & 22kw charging options, the only mention, that I can see on testing/approval etc is one mention in a youtube video, that says they have got Dutch approval, which, they say, makes it EU approved.

They add extra batteries (using own modules) in the trunk as a extender battery.

SlowBlowin

kierank01 wrote: »

What is it that the Dutch companies are doing differently that makes those ok?

I have only purchased a 2nd hand leaf, which has 12 bars of health(80% on leafspy), so not looking to do anything immediately.

have been looking at one Dutch company that are offering a number of upgrades including 11kw & 22kw charging options, the only mention, that I can see on testing/approval etc is one mention in a youtube video, that says they have got Dutch approval, which, they say, makes it EU approved.

The difference is they replace Nissan modules with Nissan modules.

I posted a link to their web site earlier.

kierank01

pszemo wrote: »

They add extra batteries (using own modules) in the trunk as a extender battery.

OK, but I still don't understand what makes that alright, from an insurance perspective.

Wouldn't 3phase charging be equivalent to cutting a hole in the side of the fuel tank, to fill it up faster? Doesn't sound like something that an insurance company would be fine with.

pszemo

SlowBlowin wrote: »

The difference is they replace Nissan modules with Nissan modules.

I posted a link to their web site earlier.

What about batteries in the trunk? Are they Nissan modules?

liamog

I found this on chill.ie (https://www.chill.ie/blog/insuring-a-modified-car/)

What Is The Definition of a Modified Car/Vehicle?
For a definition of what constitutes a modified car in Ireland we need to look at what the department of revenue have on their website.

They have two definitions of a modified / converted car that they use for VRT purposes.

A registered vehicle which has been modified in such manner that any of the particulars recorded for the purpose of its registration are altered.
An unregistered vehicle which has been modified in such manner that any of the particulars recorded for the purpose of its type-approval, or, if it has been registered previously in another jurisdiction, for the purpose of the most recent such registration, are altered.

Did the Leaf 24kW and Leaf 30kW have different type approvals? I'm pretty sure a manufacturer can't just increase the battery capacity without it requiring a new vehicle type approval. In which case, a non oem replacement would require insurance notification.
I wonder did anyone test this with a Zoe battery upgrade.

SlowBlowin

pszemo wrote: »

What about batteries in the trunk? Are they Nissan modules?

I recall they are modules (safety tested and marked) from the surplus market. I can't remember what they are from but its automotive. Check on the link I posted earlier, and watch some of the videos, he does discuss them.

SlowBlowin

As I said earlier I think the OP has a real business, if he uses his obvious knowledge to do battery swaps and conversions by fitting safety tested and marked modules. Swapping cells is the issue.

Even so all buyers should be aware they will need to arrange an insurance quote, for this they will need a detailed technical report from the OP on the intended work, which will have to forwarded to the insurer for say so (not a broker).

I think if he can secure a few newer batteries and offer a swap service then hes away...

liamog

I was trying to find info on what insurers see as a vehicle modification, the chill.ie article was the only one I found for Ireland.
This UK AA article made me scratch my head.

https://www.theaa.com/car-insurance/advice/car-modifications

If you want to modify a car, talk to your insurer before you spend any money. Even something as apparently minor as a go-faster stripe could signal a higher risk and alter your premium.

I'm wondering if the wrapped grill on our Ioniq should have been declared!

pszemo

SlowBlowin wrote: »

I recall they are modules (safety tested and marked) from the surplus market. I can't remember what they are from but its automotive. Check on the link I posted earlier, and watch some of the videos, he does discuss them.

I did check, he might be using lifepo4 cells.
See what cells are usink Kona, Bolt.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/electricrevs.com/2018/12/20/exclusive-details-on-hyundais-new-battery-thermal-management-design/amp/

SlowBlowin

pszemo wrote: »

I did check, he might be using lifepo4 cells.
See what cells are usink Kona, Bolt.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/electricrevs.com/2018/12/20/exclusive-details-on-hyundais-new-battery-thermal-management-design/amp/

Yes they use very similar cells that you have used. I note that in order to meet with LGs installation specs they both have engineered thermal management systems (unlike the Leaf) between the pouches. I asked you about your modules construction earlier but you wont disclose the details, so I dont know if you have reto fitted a thermal management system, something that removes heat at cell level ?

zg3409

liamog wrote: »

I was trying to find info on what insurers see as a vehicle modification, the chill.ie article was the only one I found for Ireland.
This UK AA article made me scratch my head.

https://www.theaa.com/car-insurance/advice/car-modifications



I'm wondering if the wrapped grill on our Ioniq should have been declared!

Anything non factory fitted, including non factory radio, non factory wheels, exhaust or air filter changes. These might affect performance or risk of theft or handling. I saw an insurance assessor on TV declining a claim due to a non factory fitted bumper.

The question asked is usually is car modified from factory specification. Part of the increased risk is those who apply go faster stickers tend to go faster. If its all declared to insurer then no issue.

n97 mini

Got me thinking. When I was into cars years ago I knew a few lads who bought cars with blown engines, sourced replacements from breakers, and did the swap themselves. I'm pretty sure they informed the folks in Shannon that the engine number had changed, and there was no issue with insurance.

Not exactly the same, I know, but all things being equal there should be no problems.

Thinking further about it, if the cells are replaced with non-Nissan sourced cells, type approval might be required. People in the UK who build kit cars or import odd cars from Japan do single vehicle type approval all the time to make sure they're road legal. Is there somewhere here to go to to get type approval? I've never heard of anyone doing it.