If Work From Home becomes a thing...

maherhonda

Cyrus wrote: »

A lot of the people in tech companies in Ireland are in sales or support services , the engineers etc are all on the west coast.

Sales jobs can be done from home but I’d disagree they are highly skilled.

LinkedIn are laying off a good few heads now as well

What is this nonsense? Do you understand how IT works and the different area's of it.

Currently 760 IT jobs in Dublin on Irishjobs. Thats not including the likes of Google, Facebook, Amazon etc.

Could add on another 600 for those.

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

A lot of the people in tech companies in Ireland are in sales or support services , the engineers etc are all on the west coast.

Sales jobs can be done from home but I’d disagree they are highly skilled.

LinkedIn are laying off a good few heads now as well

The average Facebook salary in Ireland is 154k, they aren’t mostly sales and support.

Large numbers are developers, project and program managers etc all which are highly skilled, highly paid and have always been work from home regularly even before covid.

Not allowing working from home for desk based jobs is old fashioned backward thinking.

Cyrus

maherhonda wrote: »

What is this nonsense? Do you understand how IT works and the different area's of it.

Currently 760 IT jobs in Dublin on Irishjobs. Thats not including the likes of Google, Facebook, Amazon etc.

Could add on another 600 for those.

Yes I worked in one of the companies mentioned and it was sales , finance and support services.

Biker79

maherhonda wrote: »

What is this nonsense? Do you understand how IT works and the different area's of it.

Currently 760 IT jobs in Dublin on Irishjobs. Thats not including the likes of Google, Facebook, Amazon etc.

Could add on another 600 for those.

Despite their titles, few of these will be Engineering roles. They are allmost all Tech support roles ( in some shape or form ) because that is the function MNC service companies in Ireland have within the EMEA region.

Ireland is effectively a middleman for tech services, as far as these companies go. Systems are designed in the States and manitained here In Ireland/ EMEA. There is not much prestige to be found, despite what some may allude to. Like I mentioned earrlier in this thread, between 50 and 70 % of the staff in these organisations are outsourced workers with service companies. The rest are directly employed in Sales/ Marketing/ Management - higher value roles.

Sales and Marketing jobs are much more valuable in bottom dollar terms than Tech jobs. It pains techies to hear that but its the truth. Tech jobs are on a downward trajectory of value-add. Why else would the skills be given away for free on code bootcamps? To fill the market with cheaper workers, thats why. You can still earn fairly good money as a tech, but only if you can combine IT skills with client facing ones ( which is effectively sales ).

* braces for bruised ego backlash *

Cyrus

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

The average Facebook salary in Ireland is 154k, they aren’t mostly sales and support.

Large numbers are developers, project and program managers etc all which are highly skilled, highly paid and have always been work from home regularly even before covid.

Not allowing working from home for desk based jobs is old fashioned backward thinking.

I know a few people in Facebook who have done well, large part of their remuneration was in the stock based comp they got , they were all in sales or sales management .

If you think any of the brains of these companies are located anywhere but in the west coast you are codding yourself .

maherhonda

Cyrus wrote: »

Yes I worked in one of the companies mentioned and it was sales , finance and support services.

Do you work in IT as you probably don't have a clue what was actually involved in these services otherwise.

Network engineers, Storage engineers, Programmers, Cloud engineers, Data center engineers etc, Design engineers, Linux Engineers, Windows Engineers, Messaging engineers, Security, Pen testing.

The actual cheek to think these are not high skilled jobs.

Cyrus

maherhonda wrote: »

Do you work in IT as you probably don't have a clue what was actually involved in these services otherwise.

Absolutely not, but I know where these companies locate their top engineering talent , and it’s not Ireland .

But feel free to educate me.

And while you are getting down off your high horse , where did I say any of those jobs aren’t skilled ?

Biker79

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

The average Facebook salary in Ireland is 154k, they aren’t mostly sales and support.

Large numbers are developers, project and program managers etc all which are highly skilled, highly paid and have always been work from home regularly even before covid.

Not allowing working from home for desk based jobs is old fashioned backward thinking.

Thats cooking the books. The average salary of people directly employed by facebook which is actually about 30% of total staff. The rest are outsourced workers. That figure will be further distorted by very high earners in management...but they are a very small percentage of the overall staff.

Cooking the numbers makes Facebook look like a very desirable place to work, clearly. But the reaility is different for the majority of people who work there.

Dyr

maherhonda wrote: »

Do you work in IT as you probably don't have a clue what was actually involved in these services otherwise.

Network engineers, Storage engineers, Programmers, Cloud engineers, Data center engineers etc, Design engineers, Linux Engineers, Windows Engineers, Messaging engineers, Security, Pen testing.

The actual cheek to think these are not high skilled jobs.

Ah no, all them roles are just tech support

Theres a level of spoofing that tends to be unique to sales roles, I guessed right the first time

Divisadero

maherhonda wrote: »

The actual cheek to think these are not high skilled jobs.

Awful cheek. Simply dreadful.

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

I know a few people in Facebook who have done well, large part of their remuneration was in the stock based comp they got , they were all in sales or sales management .

If you think any of the brains of these companies are located anywhere but in the west coast you are codding yourself .

Well some of the key tech for Oculus is being developed in cork where Facebook bought out the company but retained it in cork so it’s far from the truth to say that none of the brains of these companies are outside the US.

Cyrus

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

Well some of the key tech for Oculus is being developed in cork where Facebook bought out the company but retained it in cork so it’s far from the truth to say that none of the brains of these companies are outside the US.

It’s the truth there may be a few pockets here and there but you are taking about an acquired company that’s working on a component of a bigger project , that’s not the norm it’s an outlier .

Danzy

Cyrus wrote: »

Absolutely not, but I know where these companies locate their top engineering talent , and it’s not Ireland .

But feel free to educate me.

And while you are getting down off your high horse , where did I say any of those jobs aren’t skilled ?

You admit you don't know and you demonstrate it as well.

Biker79

maherhonda wrote: »

Network engineers, Storage engineers, Programmers, Cloud engineers, Data center engineers etc, Design engineers, Linux Engineers, Windows Engineers, Messaging engineers, Security, Pen testing

They are medium skilled. All of them require basic knowledge of a Third-party product with also enough knowledge to deal with unexpected behaviour.

By in large, these tech roles are the janitors and plumbers of the 21st centrury. Probably have a better chance of getting laid as a plumber, mind you :pac:

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

They are medium skilled. All of them require basic knowledge of a Third-party product with also enough knowledge to deal with unexpected behaviour.

By in large, these tech roles are the janitors and plumbers of the 21st centrury. Probably have a better chance of getting laid as a plumber, mind you :pac:

These are highly skilled roles, honestly I’m not sure you know what you are talking about. what are the highly skilled roles of it’s not these?

Edit: I say this as someone in a level above this again in skill level but I do not deny these are very skilled roles too.

Danzy

Biker79 wrote: »

They are medium skilled. All of them require basic knowledge of a Third-party product with also enough knowledge to deal with unexpected behaviour.

By in large, these tech roles are the janitors and plumbers of the 21st centrury. Probably have a better chance of getting laid as a plumber, mind you :pac:

They are highly complex jobs.

Biker79

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

These are highly skilled roles, honestly I’m not sure you know what you are talking about. what are the highly skilled roles of it’s not these?

I wouldnt say so. Principally, because most of these products are well designed, meant to work out of the box with minimal maintenance and configuration.

High skill is programming a network from scratch on some open source platforms. Its developing a new product, making a new R&D discovery.

Installing a Palo Alto virtual firewall on a vcentre, building a server, migrating to the cloud etc.....are all medium skilled jobs with established processes. There is even support from the respective vendors if you make a bags of it.

Same level of ability as plumber/ electrician... I would say. Like either of those ...it can get complex , but for the most part it isn't.

Cyrus

Danzy wrote: »

You admit you don't know and you demonstrate it as well.

You’ll have to point out to me where I said those roles are unskilled

What I said was the higher paying roles in the tech cos here are in sales and they aren’t particularly skilled roles .

But don’t let that get in the way of your indignation

And if you are honest you know where the top engineering talent is .

I don't understand why everyone has to pretend they are at cutting edge genius level .......... lots of well paid gigs out there that you don't need to be 14th dan level guru to plod along quite nicely without feeling like you underachieving.

fret_wimp2

Biker79 wrote: »

I wouldnt say so. Principally, because most of these products are well designed, meant to work out of the box with minimal maintenance and configuration.

High skill is programming a network from scratch on some open source platforms. Its developing a new product, making a new R&D discovery.

Installing a Palo Alto virtual firewall on a vcentre, building a server, migrating to the cloud etc.....are all medium skilled jobs with established processes. There is even support from the respective vendors if you make a bags of it.

Same level of ability as plumber/ electrician... I would say. Like either of those ...it can get complex , but for the most part it isn't.

This is just categorically incorrect.

You know a few IT terms and managed to put them In a sentence but even then, the sentence "programming a network from scratch" doesn't even make sensse so I'm not sure you're in a position to comment.

Yes building an OS or cloud fabric from scratch is exceptionally high skill, or any product for that matter, but it's all done using a base set of tools and platforms to abstract people from low level operations, turning a task that could take 1000 likes of code in a lower level language into a single call.

Integrating or "plumbing" these systems together is no different from a skills perspective, the task in hand is simply a different one.

The cloud platforms you think are trivial to operate are designed to make tasks and implementation of processes easier but underlying knowledge of networking, architecture, data structures, performance profiles, security profiles, pros and cons etc of each technology are all still needed.

Just because something has a nice interface does not make it trivial to use.

And at the end of the day, these platforms are just tools, useless without the knowledge of how they work, how to implement on them, how to Integrate and link them, how to write new tools thst exist on these platforms etc.

The Spider

Mr Meanor wrote: »

According to this article If your in high paid middle management it seems the company didn't miss you!
Companies now saying maybe they don't need them back, ever.

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/this-billionaire-investor-says-white-collar-workers-jobs-are-in-jeopardy

I've been saying this from day one, the people who are screaming about going back to the office will be middle managers, who dont really do anything and know it, I've been one for years in a previous company, and if you're team is Good at what they do realistically there's not tyst much fof you to do except report in on how things are going.

Some managers try to compensate by getting involved, but then if you get too involved you're micromanaging.

It must be absolute hell, for a lot of them, not knowing who they're teams are dealing with over Skype, and thats the real reason they want people back in the office, not collaboration, its so they can keep an eye, and psychologically think they can prevent team members getting too close to their bosses if they're all in the same place.

Cyrus

The Spider wrote: »

I've been saying this from day one, the people who are screaming about going back to the office will be middle managers, who dont really do anything and know it, I've been one for years in a previous company, and if you're team is Good at what they do realistically there's not tyst much fof you to do except report in on how things are going.

Some managers try to compensate by getting involved, but then if you get too involved you're micromanaging.

It must be absolute hell, for a lot of them, not knowing who they're teams are dealing with over Skype, and thats the real reason they want people back in the office, not collaboration, its so they can keep an eye, and psychologically think they can prevent team members getting too close to their bosses if they're all in the same place.

yeah its the management, out to get the worker bees who do all the work i tells ya :P

if only they left them alone and didnt manage them, imagine what they could achieve.

if management is so unimportant why does it exist? and why hasnt someone figured out a way to get rid of all these useless managers? if they are paid more than everyone else surely its on someones agenda?

jrosen

Or the management who want a return are privy to information the average worker isn't and they can see the benefits to a return to the office in some capacity.
Anyone I talk to says how less productive they are, how its a struggle with their kids, connection, not a suitable office space Yet pop onto Boards and its the opposite.

Hopefully there is an increase in work from home for people especially those who commute but its not going to be the mass exodus people think it will be.

limnam

Cyrus wrote: »

yeah its the management, out to get the worker bees who do all the work i tells ya :P

if only they left them alone and didnt manage them, imagine what they could achieve.

if management is so unimportant why does it exist? and why hasnt someone figured out a way to get rid of all these useless managers? if they are paid more than everyone else surely its on someones agenda?

In order to get rid of them you need a way to filter out needy worker types.


It's the future.

beauf

Biker79 wrote: »

I wouldnt say so. Principally, because most of these products are well designed, meant to work out of the box with minimal maintenance and configuration.

High skill is programming a network from scratch on some open source platforms. Its developing a new product, making a new R&D discovery.

Installing a Palo Alto virtual firewall on a vcentre, building a server, migrating to the cloud etc.....are all medium skilled jobs with established processes. There is even support from the respective vendors if you make a bags of it.

Same level of ability as plumber/ electrician... I would say. Like either of those ...it can get complex , but for the most part it isn't.

Sounds like you don't know either the building industry or the IT industry, or indeed any of these roles.

I'd explain it only...

kippy

jrosen wrote: »

Or the management who want a return are privy to information the average worker isn't and they can see the benefits to a return to the office in some capacity.
Anyone I talk to says how less productive they are, how its a struggle with their kids, connection, not a suitable office space Yet pop onto Boards and its the opposite.

Hopefully there is an increase in work from home for people especially those who commute but its not going to be the mass exodus people think it will be.

Boards users are GENERALLY more techie, of a more specific age profile and probably working in an area where WFH may already have been in play or may have been well aligned to a WFH environment. It's not reflective of the wider populace.
My own close friends would generally be in those demographic types as well so all I tend to see are the positive spins.
Now, from what I am seeing in the wider sense - where a job leads itself to WFH in an ideal world MOST people, particularly younger and those early into their careers would prefer some "work environment" access and I can see why.
I personally, don't mind WFH, even in it's current guise, once you set some specific policies around it and you personally setup some boundaries and get kitted out. Even at that, I am a social person and I do like the engagement with other staff in person and I have to say you get to know people far better in person and have opportunities for non work related conversations or indeed less formal work related conversations in person. For that reason alone, I think a split week is an ideal scenario for most people.

Then there are the people who just cannot adapt to WFH at all, both on a staff and management side. In fairness when you drop WFH on an organisation that has never done it, you are going to have that!

Biker79

beauf wrote: »

Sounds like you don't know either the building industry or the IT industry, or indeed any of these roles.

I'd explain it only...

beauf

jrosen wrote: »

Or the management who want a return are privy to information the average worker isn't and they can see the benefits to a return to the office in some capacity.
Anyone I talk to says how less productive they are, how its a struggle with their kids, connection, not a suitable office space Yet pop onto Boards and its the opposite.

Hopefully there is an increase in work from home for people especially those who commute but its not going to be the mass exodus people think it will be.

That's because boards isn't representative of Ireland in general.

To know how productive someone is, you have to measure and monitor it, output, objectives achieved etc. It surprising how few do that. Fewer still will have systems in place to do it remotely.

The other thing is that even where there difficulties with working from home. Perhaps they have a lot less impact than working in the office. So for example the distractions at home might add up to less time than commuting, or having to take time of to manage things at home.

I would expect in our office about 30~40% would prefer to be in the office. Some of that has nothing to do with productivity.

beauf

kippy wrote: »

Boards users are GENERALLY more techie, of a more specific age profile and probably working in an area where WFH may already have been in play or may have been well aligned to a WFH environment. It's not reflective of the wider populace.
My own close friends would generally be in those demographic types as well so all I tend to see are the positive spins.
Now, from what I am seeing in the wider sense - where a job leads itself to WFH in an ideal world MOST people, particularly younger and those early into their careers would prefer some "work environment" access and I can see why.
I personally, don't mind WFH, even in it's current guise, once you set some specific policies around it and you personally setup some boundaries and get kitted out. Even at that, I am a social person and I do like the engagement with other staff in person and I have to say you get to know people far better in person and have opportunities for non work related conversations or indeed less formal work related conversations in person. For that reason alone, I think a split week is an ideal scenario for most people.

Then there are the people who just cannot adapt to WFH at all, both on a staff and management side. In fairness when you drop WFH on an organisation that has never done it, you are going to have that!

I deal with quite a few people who much prefer unplanned and rambling ad hoc chats than writing things down. They are incredibly inefficient. These people can't wait to get back into the office.

radiotrickster

It’s not possible to judge whether people as a whole will be more or less productive working from home. There are too many variables, even from job to job.

I know one person who said they’re more productive and get a days work done in four hours because they haven’t got as many distractions (chatting in the office, random meetings that don’t need to be meetings, making tea to get a break from the work, etc).

I know secretaries who have said it’s easier to get anything on the computer done because they don’t have to deal with the distraction of calls as whoever is in the office manages that now. But when you’re in the office, you have to do things where if you’re disrupted, you won’t lose your train of thought as you’re dealing with lots of calls.

Wompa1

Have worked 100% remotely for 3 years. I am definitely more productive at home but it's to a fault. Work life balance is terrible. I decided last year to make a change and rented an office in the city for myself, going out of pocket. I worked in the office 3 days a week and home the other two days. It was great to get out and socialize a bit. Also good to have a bit more variety for lunch at times. There was a lad during the summer who would busk just outside the building. It had a lovely vibe.

Unfortunately, the management company wouldn't allow me to renew my lease. They found a charity who wanted to rent the entire floor, not just individual offices. Turns out that was a blessing in disguise considering what has happened now.

If the virus gets completely eradicated, I hope to move into a co-working space in the nearest village. It seems these have become very common around the country.

I'm lucky. I live in the sticks but get 1Gbps broadband. I have an office in my house with a high quality chair and hardware.

Most tech jobs with multi-nationals in Ireland are support roles. I'm sure of that. They don't necessarily pay very well but are a great opportunity still and from speaking with executives in large US tech companies, the jobs in Ireland are much more secure than most of their other locations.

Dyr

kippy wrote: »

Even at that, I am a social person and I do like the engagement with other staff in person and I have to say you get to know people far better in person and have opportunities for non work related conversations or indeed less formal work related conversations in person. For that reason alone, I think a split week is an ideal scenario for most people.

Then there are the people who just cannot adapt to WFH at all, both on a staff and management side. In fairness when you drop WFH on an organisation that has never done it, you are going to have that!

There are drawbacks to WFH but I think companies are going to realise they can save a fortune on their facilities, insurance, HR and absenteeism if they can make it work. Long term it could mean the gig econmy comes to the office environment with a vengeance which is not ideal but there you are

I'm finding it funny that a lot of the peope I deal with who cant handle WFH at all are the serial desk ambushers and micro managers who now have to stand on their own two feet

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

You’ll have to point out to me where I said those roles are unskilled

What I said was the higher paying roles in the tech cos here are in sales and they aren’t particularly skilled roles .

But don’t let that get in the way of your indignation

And if you are honest you know where the top engineering talent is .

That actually came up in a meeting yesterday. There was a question regarding pay parity between tech and sales. The answer that came back was "Some of our sales guys make deals of a million+. If you work in tech but think you can make a similar deal, then movie to sales and you will earn more".

I've worked alongside sales guys for years. Many of them didn't know their arse from their elbow from a tech point of view, but were earning double or more than me. So why don't I move to sales? Because I couldn't do it. I'd be bored to tears. I'm an introverted techie. I can't talk the ears off a donkey like some of them can.

Cyrus

Deleted User wrote: »

That actually came up in a meeting yesterday. There was a question regarding pay parity between tech and sales. The answer that came back was "Some of our sales guys make deals of a million+. If you work in tech but think you can make a similar deal, then movie to sales and you will earn more".

I've worked alongside sales guys for years. Many of them didn't know their arse from their elbow from a tech point of view, but were earning double or more than me. So why don't I move to sales? Because I couldn't do it. I'd be bored to tears. I'm an introverted techie. I can't talk the ears off a donkey like some of them can.

yes id agree with most of that, sales skills while they can be honed, are generally within a person, some people are sales people some arent, and in that sphere academics comes secondary to the ability to do a deal, and the very good ones get paid a lot, and good luck to them.

so they are skilled in a way, but not a conventional way.

i would be awful at it too as it goes.

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

yes id agree with most of that, sales skills while they can be honed, are generally within a person, some people are sales people some arent, and in that sphere academics comes secondary to the ability to do a deal, and the very good ones get paid a lot, and good luck to them.

so they are skilled in a way, but not a conventional way.

i would be awful at it too as it goes.

I was out of work a few years ago and was considering as a stop gap being a floor worker in PC World. My partner at the time talked me out of it, because A) I'd be terrible, and Probably wouldn't last very long because I'd be unable to push the likes of Norton Anti-virus for 70 odd quid on customer, instead I'd be telling them to download AVG which was free in those days. And C) I'd be unhappy. She was right.

Technocentral

andrew1977 wrote: »

Back to the office for the 23 or so of us 10th August , email sent today to everyone from the management
Redesign of the office , seats 2 metres apart , plastic screens at each work station, no gathering in the kitchen for lunch breaks etc .

Training on health and safety and Covid practices to be complete online week before we return .

Full crew of us all return same day and normal office hours again going forward .

We worked fine remotely all of us , everything done and more of our workload . The culture is “ have them in the office “, MD is old school .

Back to my 2 hour round trip commute per day and 55 euro or so a week on diesel .

Working from home made such a positive impact to my wellbeing , 19 years commuting , was such a difference the time back I gained at home ,leaving aside the running costs of the car .

But considering the jobs market and how things might look going forward for the economy, I won’t grumble too much compared to situations others are facing .

Sorry to here that, dinosaur thinking still alive and well.

Wompa1

Bambi wrote: »

There are drawbacks to WFH but I think companies are going to realise they can save a fortune on their facilities, insurance, HR and absenteeism if they can make it work. Long term it could mean the gig econmy comes to the office environment with a vengeance which is not ideal but there you are

I have been the only 100% remote employee in my company for a while. They made an exception when I tried to give notice that I was leaving and moving back to Ireland.

For the last 18 months, the company has been working on a work from home strategy. Well before COVID and it's purely for saving money. They reckon that they'd save about 27 million in the first 5 years by just moving the tech and admin staff remote.

It's been interesting to see if play out. Before announcing any work from home initiative, they stopped paying a stipend to people for their phone bill. They had been paying it to anyone who was expected to work on-call. There was a lot of resistance and compromise just for that.

COVID expedited everything. It's been exhausting to keep up with and try to support.

Biker79

Technocentral wrote: »

Sorry to here that, dinosaur thinking still alive and well.

Can you explain why this is dinosaur thinking? Afterall, its the thinking of someone who runs a business and keeps people in jobs.

Why would your opinion be better than theirs. Have you also successfully ran a company?

kippy

Bambi wrote: »

There are drawbacks to WFH but I think companies are going to realise they can save a fortune on their facilities, insurance, HR and absenteeism if they can make it work. Long term it could mean the gig econmy comes to the office environment with a vengeance which is not ideal but there you are

I'm finding it funny that a lot of the peope I deal with who cant handle WFH at all are the serial desk ambushers and micro managers who now have to stand on their own two feet

Companies can save a fortune IF and only IF - the go entirely WFH AND productivity/culture does not suffer. This does not suit every company.
I think most companies wont want to go entirely WFH and there are massive considerations around what resources (people and other) they need to have in a physical building.
(all of what I am saying btw, is in the context of those roles that re WFH friendly in the first instance, there are obviously roles that aren't)

beauf

Wompa1 wrote: »

....
Most tech jobs with multi-nationals in Ireland are support roles. I'm sure of that. They don't necessarily pay very well but are a great opportunity still and from speaking with executives in large US tech companies, the jobs in Ireland are much more secure than most of their other locations.

With every industry there is a pyramid of high paid and low paid also high skill sets and low skill sets. The vast majority of people in most industries will be the lower paid. That's why its a pyramid. Same with skill sets.

While the big multi-nationals have a lot of support jobs. A certain % of these are highly technical. Tier 3 and above. Its misleading to compare them with lower tech support jobs. They will take years of experience and training to acquire those skill sets. They get paid well because relatively few people will acquire these deep skill sets and experience.

Also the IT industry in Ireland is filled with lots of native development companies and a lot of their R&D is done here. Even when its outsourced it will be run operationally from the parent company in Ireland.

Obviously there are hotspots in the west coast of the US etc. But its a mistake to think this is the only place where R&D is done.

beauf

Biker79 wrote: »

Can you explain why this is dinosaur thinking? Afterall, its the thinking of someone who runs a business and keeps people in jobs. ...

The why was in the post he quoted.

beauf

Wompa1 wrote: »

....
COVID expedited everything. It's been exhausting to keep up with and try to support.

I think most IT departments have been the busiest they've ever been.

Even where sales dried up, lots of companies massively ramped up R&D and new products, projects pipeline's that could generate income during the new reality during the lock down. Future products, were all accelerated.

Wompa1

beauf wrote: »

With every industry there is a pyramid of high paid and low paid also high skill sets and low skill sets. The vast majority of people in most industries will be the lower paid. That's why its a pyramid. Same with skill sets.

While the big multi-nationals have a lot of support jobs. A certain % of these are highly technical. Tier 3 and above. Its misleading to compare them with lower tech support jobs. They will take years of experience and training to acquire those skill sets. They get paid well because relatively few people will acquire these deep skill sets and experience.

Also the IT industry in Ireland is filled with lots of native development companies and a lot of their R&D is done here. Even when its outsourced it will be run operationally from the parent company in Ireland.

Obviously there are hotspots in the west coast of the US etc. But its a mistake to think this is the only place where R&D is done.

It's definitely not the only place R&D is done and some of it is done in Ireland specifically to avail of Irish laws on Intellectual Property. I have worked for tiny startups who were sizing up having an entity in Ireland just to avail of that.

It is true that in most large organizations, they have more lower paid\tiered support staff than high skilled. In a support sense the higher tier SHOULD just handle escalations which shouldn't be all that frequent in a well run place.

In my last IT job in Ireland, I would been considered highly skilled but on pretty poor pay. I also spent a lot of my time working with top tier engineers and architects overseas. Even if a lot of the heavy lifting was being completed by us. The higher pay and superior titles were held by those in the US, Germany, Hong Kong etc.

Still, I have a few friends who worked similar roles to me and then went out and started their own companies and did very well for themselves. Ireland needs more of that anyway. Less reliance on the likes of Facebook and more investment in creating our own Facebooks or Googles.

Strumms

If it became an absolute necessity....I’ve a rather big old garage out the back that is just used for storage. I’d do what I’ve been threatening to do for years and get it insulated, was going to set up a pool table that could be long term but set it up with office furniture and pc the company would send... that way when 5pm hits , I’m off and away, away off the clock, back in the house, uncontactable, done.

Otherwise if you are truly working ‘in’ your home you are a target for the... “ohhh just check your email for a sec”... brigade, halfway during the second half of an entertaining match or say family dinner...

hots

Strumms wrote: »

If it became an absolute necessity....I’ve a rather big old garage out the back that is just used for storage. I’d do what I’ve been threatening to do for years and get it insulated, was going to set up a pool table that could be long term but set it up with office furniture and pc the company would send... that way when 5pm hits , I’m off and away, away off the clock, back in the house, uncontactable, done.

Otherwise if you are truly working ‘in’ your home you are a target for the... “ohhh just check your email for a sec”... brigade, halfway during the second half of an entertaining match or say family dinner...

I've no issue with clocking off and picking up any of those requests the next day, just need to set your boundaries clear with others. I can see the benefit psychologically though of having the office away from the living space, keeps it more separate in the head.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Otherwise if you are truly working ‘in’ your home you are a target for the... “ohhh just check your email for a sec”... brigade, halfway during the second half of an entertaining match or say family dinner...

Most people do that on their phone anyway (check emails I mean), WFH overall only improves work life balance for me personally. Even when I'm in the office I would still check emails in the evening and if I'm working late at home then I would have been working late in the office or alternatively I would have come home from the office, had dinner and then started working WFH for the evening. You also have the extra time you would be commuting that you can work if you wish too which can help to ease the need for working later at other times etc.

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

Can you explain why this is dinosaur thinking? Afterall, its the thinking of someone who runs a business and keeps people in jobs.

Why would your opinion be better than theirs. Have you also successfully ran a company?

He explained why its dinosaur thinking in his post. While working from home, productivity went up(it's the same in my own place), his own well being improved.

Management may not care about his well being or the money he has saved, but they should care that more work was accomplished for the same or less money spent.

fret_wimp2

Deleted User wrote: »

He explained why its dinosaur thinking in his post. While working from home, productivity went up(it's the same in my own place), his own well being improved.

Management may not care about his well being or the money he has saved, but they should care that more work was accomplished for the same or less money spent.

Some managers just like bums on seats in the office, they feel if they can see employees, they can make sure they work.

As i see it, the people who are productive from home are the people who were always productive. The people who are slacking off now always did, its just more visible.

For that cohort the question is not about having them in the office to ensure productivity, its would you rather they slack off at home or have them slack off in the office.

Cyrus

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Some managers just like bums on seats in the office, they feel if they can see employees, they can make sure they work.

As i see it, the people who are productive from home are the people who were always productive. The people who are slacking off now always did, its just more visible.

For that cohort the question is not about having them in the office to ensure productivity, its would you rather they slack off at home or have them slack off in the office.

its easier to make them work in an office environment but generally my preference is just to get rid of them, easier all round.

fret_wimp2

Cyrus wrote: »

its easier to make them work in an office environment but generally my preference is just to get rid of them, easier all round.

Thats not generally the Irish way unfortunately.