If Work From Home becomes a thing...

Cyrus

beauf wrote: »

Not sure where you are going with this. I have one guy on the team who never listens, therefore I should never share anything with the entire team. This is useful how?

i didnt say that at all, what i am saying is you can share a vision all you want, that doesnt mean you dont need a manager to drive a team towards that vision, the chances of them full understanding it without management or leadership, or even caring, is small.

beauf

jonnny68 wrote: »

couldnt be dealing with wfh from all full time, half and half suits me fine

My opinion has changed the longer it goes on. I have always worked from home now and then. This is longest continuous time though.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

In some places this vision is shared with the whole team.

In others its data silo'd within management layers. Everyone effectively works with blinkers on.

Sharing the vision and actually getting it implemented are very different things. Also of you have 10 or 15 different projects running in parallel there is only so much you can practically share as you would spend more time explaining things than it would take people to get the work done.

Who coordinates all the work of different people working on something, you need an overall picture of what's happening so you can manage a build as it moves though the development cycle. Having 6 or 7 people in a room trying to do this for a load of projects would be a waste of time you need someone with the overall picture and understanding, prioritising tasks, looking externally to where delays might happen that will impact internal progress etc etc (i'm just picking tiny snippets here of what is actually needed).

beauf

Cyrus wrote: »

i didnt say that at all, what i am saying is you can share a vision all you want, that doesnt mean you dont need a manager to drive a team towards that vision, the chances of them full understanding it without management or leadership, or even caring, is small.

So someone who isn't a manager couldn't do any of this before they were a manager. The moment they opened their promotion to manager there was a blinding flash of light and suddenly they had vision and understanding.

I see.

beauf

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

Sharing the vision and actually getting it implemented are very different things. Also of you have 10 or 15 different projects running in parallel there is only so much you can practically share as you would spend more time explaining things than it would take people to get the work done.

Who coordinates all the work of different people working on something, you need an overall picture of what's happening so you can manage a build as it moves though the development cycle. Having 6 or 7 people in a room trying to do this for a load of projects would be a waste of time you need someone with the overall picture and understanding, prioritising tasks, looking externally to where delays might happen that will impact internal progress etc etc (i'm just picking tiny snippets here of what is actually needed).

I can only infer you think I said you don't need managers. I didn't.

Someone brought up an example that was clearly silo's. I don't find them efficient, YMMV.

Cyrus

beauf wrote: »

So someone who isn't a manager couldn't do any of this before they were a manager. The moment they opened their promotion to manager there was a blinding flash of light and suddenly they had vision and understanding.

I see.

im not sure if you are trying to be smart, if you are try harder.

thats part of why they were made managers obviously, or at least id have thought that was obvious.

beauf

Cyrus wrote: »

...
thats part of why they were made managers obviously, or at least id have thought that was obvious.

Then it would seem then you don't have to be manager to have understanding or vision. Since you have to have it, to be promoted to be a manager.

Cyrus wrote: »

...that doesnt mean you dont need a manager to drive a team towards that vision, the chances of them full understanding it without management or leadership, or even caring, is small.

beauf

Really the only point I'm making is not all manager are good managers.

You might think people get prompted on ability. But thats not always true either.

I think if someone was able to coast in the office, they will have no problem doing it WFH either.
So its irrelevant if they are working from home or in the office.

s8n

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Don't worry about that, the greens will find a solution: build a bridge between Ireland and France wide enough for two cycle lanes and two pedestrian paths.

ridiculous suggestion

beauf

Longest cycling bridge in the world...

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-edition-1.5492490/why-the-netherlands-is-building-a-10m-bridge-for-cyclists-pedestrians-and-bats-1.5488474

Cyrus

beauf wrote: »

Then it would seem then you don't have to be manager to have understanding or vision. Since you have to have it, to be promoted to be a manager.

your ability to miscomprehend is almost laudible.

Technocentral

beauf wrote: »

Really the only point I'm making is not all manager are good managers.

You might think people get prompted on ability. But thats not always true either.

I think if someone was able to coast in the office, they will have no problem doing it WFH either.
So its irrelevant if they are working from home or in the office.

If you employ competent people who know their job you do not need so called "managers", its as simple as that.

Technocentral

Technocentral wrote: »

If you employ competent people who know their job you do not need so called "managers", its as simple as that.

So you are saying there is no need whatsoever for people in management positions? Even when a person is just a manager by default due to being more senior etc which is the case of most managers in my area of work?

ELM327

Technocentral wrote: »

If you employ competent people who know their job you do not need so called "managers", its as simple as that.

Now I'm the last one to encourage multi layered middle management but saying you don't need a manager is like saying if you have a good builder you don't need an architect

beauf

This seems to have gone off topic from WFH. Seemed to have stemmed from this...

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/this-billionaire-investor-says-white-collar-workers-jobs-are-in-jeopardy

He probably made these comments to light a fire under a couple of people. But seems to have touch a nerve far and wide.

Blanco100

WFH purely works for me as usually its a 4 hour daily roundtrip to work.

If my office was 10 minute drive id have different opinion.

But being up at 8am (instead of 5.30am) and logged off at 5.30/6pm (instead of back home at 7.45pm) makes a huge difference to my life.

Not paying for the train is another massive perk. Cannot stress enough how this has benefited me and my young family.

Id say it would give me another 10 years of my life.

Blanco100

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

So you are saying there is no need whatsoever for people in management positions? Even when a person is just a manager by default due to being more senior etc which is the case of most managers in my area of work?

In my job in financial services, our bosses merely report up the ladder. its their sole purpose. They would not jump in when things are busy for instance, muck in and do what we do. They wouldnt know how, but then it was never their job. They simply report up the chain with our numbers.

beauf

Blanco100 wrote: »

In my job in financial services, our bosses merely report up the ladder. its their sole purpose. They would not jump in when things are busy for instance, muck in and do what we do. They wouldnt know how, but then it was never their job. They simply report up the chain with our numbers.

Our is a mix. Some could and some couldn't. It would be the same for acting up though also.

Blanco100

Blanco100 wrote: »

In my job in financial services, our bosses merely report up the ladder. its their sole purpose. They would not jump in when things are busy for instance, muck in and do what we do. They wouldnt know how, but then it was never their job. They simply report up the chain with our numbers.

I think the ability to properly report other people's work is being underestimated by many also. You need to be able to interpret and understand the stuff enough to talk about it and answer questions on it even if its not in your area of expertise often you are dealing with senior people too and need to be able to talk about the stuff like you really know it and sound decisive and competent . It's not easy trust me I have to do it myself at times in highly technical areas as I lead projects with a lot of people doing very different things where my technical expertise would apply to the one part of the project but I have to report all progress, plans, issues etc and be able to discuss it.

unhappys10

Blanco100 wrote: »

WFH purely works for me as usually its a 4 hour daily roundtrip to work.

If my office was 10 minute drive id have different opinion.

But being up at 8am (instead of 5.30am) and logged off at 5.30/6pm (instead of back home at 7.45pm) makes a huge difference to my life.

Not paying for the train is another massive perk. Cannot stress enough how this has benefited me and my young family.

Id say it would give me another 10 years of my life.

Exact same for me, 4 hour round trip avoided not to mention the cost of it.

Being here to see our first baby's steps and words is priceless. Absolutely loving it.

gnf_ireland

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ELM327 wrote: »

Now I'm the last one to encourage multi layered middle management but saying you don't need a manager is like saying if you have a good builder you don't need an architect

Absolutely agree with this statement.

Even at a personal level, when I was renovating my house someone had to be the "manager", and coordinate the various things that needed to be aligned correctly and handle the situations when they were not. This is no different in a work environment

And yes, there are terrible inefficient managers out there, but equally the same can be said about workers.

Quin_Dub

I think the nature of management changes in a remote environment.

You will always need managers that set the agenda and priorities. You need the leader that acts as a "roadblock remover" to ensure that work keep moving forward etc.

What you no longer need are the micro-management "floor walker" type managers who simply "check that people are working" rather than adding value to the process.

Some managers are already the former , some will be able to transition from the latter to the former.

There will also be those that can't become the new type of leader and they are the ones that will either have to find new work or lose out.

beauf

WFH mostly removed a lot of Organisational Road Blocks for me.

That said I can see all those people dying to get back into the office, and get back to work, creating Road blocks again.

rn

Definitely management becomes more complex in the remote situation. Managers often exhibit one management style ie hands off or hands on.

While lots of people will thrive with the improved focus working from home brings and these people require the hands off manager. There's lots of people who can't be trusted to work when working from home. These will continue to require the micro manager.

If only every manager could read their people and apply the right model for the employee, we'd all work in great workplaces.

Managers are a necessary cost in any scaled business. They are not always the highest paid member of the team. In fact in many IT and software development models, the "gurus" will be the highest paid.

Mrs OBumble

Quin_Dub wrote: »

What you no longer need are the micro-management "floor walker" type managers who simply "check that people are working" rather than adding value to the process.

Try working on a project where some people are slack, disengaged, or just still learning what they don't know.

At least in the office, colleagues find out about this and have a chance to resolve the problem.

If everyone is remote without even active digital " floor-walking", problems can be undetected for weeks or even months .

Quin_Dub

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Try working on a project where some people are slave, disengaged, or just still learning what they don't know.

At least in the office, colleagues find out about this and have a chance to resolve the problem.

If everyone is remote without even active digital " floor-walking", problems can be undetected for weeks or even months .

That's a failing of the 1st part of my post - Setting Agenda & Priorities.

If people don't know what they should be doing or are not sure that if what they are doing is aligned to the overall priorities , then the manager has failed.

Some fix that by "walking the floor" , others fix it by doing what they are supposed to do , which is to clearly set the expectations.

strandroad

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Try working on a project where some people are slack, disengaged, or just still learning what they don't know.

At least in the office, colleagues find out about this and have a chance to resolve the problem.

If everyone is remote without even active digital " floor-walking", problems can be undetected for weeks or even months .

Remote does not equal completely on their own though, you're still having conversations and check-ins with whoever you're supervising and you're collaborating so your colleagues are not in the dark either. "Walking the floor" does not require actual floor, and some teams don't walk the floor in their physical office either.

PommieBast

strandroad wrote: »

Remote does not equal completely on their own though, you're still having conversations and check-ins with whoever you're supervising and you're collaborating so your colleagues are not in the dark either.

In all ironies the amount of contact I have had with colleagues has rocketed..

beauf

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Try working on a project where some people are slack, disengaged, or just still learning what they don't know.

At least in the office, colleagues find out about this and have a chance to resolve the problem.

If everyone is remote without even active digital " floor-walking", problems can be undetected for weeks or even months .

Also happens in an office tbh.

beauf

PommieBast wrote: »

In all ironies the amount of contact I have had with colleagues has rocketed..

I find the same. I have people who in the office would basically ignore emails, and phone calls. You'd have go stand over them to get them to do something.

They now are forced to communicate in team and/or dept online meeting. If it's not done it's obvious to all.

Previously we never had team or department meetings in the same format. They were usually behind closed doors, or very infrequent. Now in order to be visible they have to contribute in open meetings. People are falling over themselves to contribute.

Mrs OBumble

strandroad wrote: »

Remote does not equal completely on their own though, you're still having conversations and check-ins with whoever you're supervising

This is exactly the kind of "floor-walking " middle management that an earlier post claimed isn't needed with online working.

In my experience its more critical to have when there's online working.

Sunny Disposition

There are some disadvantages to remote working, in some industries at least. But it's surely 'a thing' now and going to be here permanently. Mad how the pandemic has turned things upside down. Seems to me that the initial antipathy to working from home in certain companies has kinda cooled now, there must be very few people who don't accept it can be done effectively.

MrMusician18

Blanco100 wrote: »

WFH purely works for me as usually its a 4 hour daily roundtrip to work.

If my office was 10 minute drive id have different opinion.

But being up at 8am (instead of 5.30am) and logged off at 5.30/6pm (instead of back home at 7.45pm) makes a huge difference to my life.

Not paying for the train is another massive perk. Cannot stress enough how this has benefited me and my young family.

Id say it would give me another 10 years of my life.

Actually 4hrs a day works out to almost 5 years over a 40 year career.
I get your point, just illustrating how much time is actually wasted with commuting

beauf

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This is exactly the kind of "floor-walking " middle management that an earlier post claimed isn't needed with online working.

In my experience its more critical to have when there's online working.

There is a difference to watching to see if someone is at desk and actually managing productivity, even then there is a difference between, managing a project and micro managing people.


As a manager you should be tracking the work, not the person.

On the management discussion, it really depends on whether you have a good manager or not.

In my past job, my manager didn't know anything about what the team did day-to-day. They couldn't have a conversation about the detail, they didn't know much about our products or what conversations with our clients looked like. Since there was such a large chunk of the role of the team they couldn't/didn't contribute on, they would focus on the parts of my (when I say my, take it as anyone in my team) job they were able to contribute and tried to micro-manage. They would store up things you'd done 'wrong' and dump them on you at annual/mid-year review time rather than having an ongoing discussion, they were totally unwilling or unable to take feedback. They were one of the worst managers I've ever had and I believe actively held me back, if they weren't there I would be more productive than when they were there. That manager was one of the biggest reasons I left the role, and several of my colleagues have left with the exact same issues that I had.

But that was a bad manager, it doesn't mean managers in general are unnecessary. I feel very happy with my current manager, I feel they will help me in my career in my current company and my work would be more difficult if they were removed from the equation.

into_the_wild

Koda Loose Cone wrote: »

On the management discussion, it really depends on whether you have a good manager or not.

In my past job, my manager didn't know anything about what the team did day-to-day. They couldn't have a conversation about the detail, they didn't know much about our products or what conversations with our clients looked like. Since there was such a large chunk of the role of the team they couldn't/didn't contribute on, they would focus on the parts of my (when I say my, take it as anyone in my team) job they were able to contribute and tried to micro-manage. They would store up things you'd done 'wrong' and dump them on you at annual/mid-year review time rather than having an ongoing discussion, they were totally unwilling or unable to take feedback. They were one of the worst managers I've ever had and I believe actively held me back, if they weren't there I would be more productive than when they were there. That manager was one of the biggest reasons I left the role, and several of my colleagues have left with the exact same issues that I had.

But that was a bad manager, it doesn't mean managers in general are unnecessary. I feel very happy with my current manager, I feel they will help me in my career in my current company and my work would be more difficult if they were removed from the equation.

Totally agree. I have been in the same boat as you. Definitely think that the right managers can be very helpful and wrong ones can be highly detrimental to your work life.

limnam

into_the_wild wrote: »

Totally agree. I have been in the same boat as you. Definitely think that the right managers can be very helpful and wrong ones can be highly detrimental to your work life.

The problem is IMO. The working from home makes the already poor ones even worse. But I guess they're also easier to avoid

M256

WFH is an inflection point. If you don’t want to change, then retire. If you work in an environment where people need to be micromanaged, that does not mean that every place is like that. WFH was a trend even before, the pandemic is just making it mainstream faster. It’s the new norm and individual opinion does not really matter.

M256

Koda Loose Cone wrote: »

On the management discussion, it really depends on whether you have a good manager or not.

Not everyone understands the difference between managers and leaders.

BrianD3

Article about WFH plans in the Irish Indo today
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/workers-will-have-right-to-ask-to-work-from-home-under-new-government-plans-39632288.html

What is the point of this, sounds like worthless nonsense. Wow, employees to be given the legal right to request WFH which can be refused.

Before this plan:
Employee: Can I work from home
Manager: No

After this plan:
Employee: Can I work from home
Manager: No

As I said in another thread, if the state wants to encourage WFH for climate action and other reasons, it needs to start with the civil and public service which it has some semblence of control over. Take the decision making out of the hands of useless managers and senior people with a 1970s attitude to work practices.

maneno

BrianD3 wrote: »

Article about WFH plans in the Irish Indo today
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/workers-will-have-right-to-ask-to-work-from-home-under-new-government-plans-39632288.html

What is the point of this, sounds like worthless nonsense. Wow, employees to be given the legal right to request WFH which can be refused.

Before this plan:
Employee: Can I work from home
Manager: No

After this plan:
Employee: Can I work from home
Manager: No

As I said in another thread, if the state wants to encourage WFH for climate action and other reasons, it needs to start with the civil and public service which it has some semblence of control over. Take the decision making out of the hands of useless managers and senior people with a 1970s attitude to work practices.

who would make the decision in your case?

jmlad2020

Ultimanemo wrote: »

In many places in Ireland you can't work from home because the Internet is not fast enough.

What constitutes as fast enough? I live in the back ass of nowhere with ok broadband. Believe it or not I can still get emails and have teams meetings. No hiccups. Not every job requires high speed internet although some might.

riclad

My Friend lives in a new build one off house ,about 14 minutes drive from
a large town .
she used a 02 3g modem to acess the web ,
she applied to eircom,sky etc no one could provide broadband in that area.
if you live in rural area,s theres a chance you simply can not get broadband , unless you maybe use a satellite provider.
if you are x distance from the exchange you will not get a good quality signal which is needed to provide fast broadband .
i think an app like zoom needs
quote ;
Zoom Overview Zoom Technical Requirements
Minimum bandwidth is 600kbps (up/down) and recommended is 1.5 Mbps (up/down). Check your Internet bandwidth using Speedtest.


if i use tethering on my 4g phone i get 20meg per second on it if i download a podcast.
emails will work on a 56k modem,
or 1 bar signal on a phone .
its apps like skype or zoom or youtube that require at least 3meg per second to work as normal .

an email is just a txt file .

Most broadband ads i see online quote 20-50meg per second at least.

Jim2007

riclad wrote: »

Most broadband ads i see online quote 20-50meg per second at least.

I use what seems to be the Swiss equivalent of this plan: https://www.eir.ie/store/mobile/mbbdevice/bill-pay/


On average I get about 120Mbps on it. Because of the nature of my work, I'm required to have three alternatives, so I also have broadband and a satellite connection. Of the three, I find the 4G to be the most consistent.



Perhaps someone Ireland can comment on such plans.

riclad

The new tesla satellite network could provide a choice for people in rural area, s or areas where's there's no 4g signal.
It's fast and not too expensive, the problem it will be limited to about 300,000 users around the world.
In America millions of people have zero acess to broadband.
Comcast , Att do not think its worth while building fibre in rural area.s
It's cheaper to have a network in city's or large towns where's there's millions of potential customers
I think it will take 3 years to have 5g available
in most city's and towns in Ireland
Each cell tower needs to be connected to high speed fibre

PommieBast

Jim2007 wrote: »

On average I get about 120Mbps on it. Because of the nature of my work, I'm required to have three alternatives, so I also have broadband and a satellite connection. Of the three, I find the 4G to be the most consistent.

Oh Jees.. What sort of RTT latency does that thing have? Wouldn't want to use an SSH connection over it..