If Work From Home becomes a thing...

mvl

Examples of top paid / high risk jobs in here https://willrobotstakemyjob.com/top-paid-high-risk-jobs
- there may be more recent studies ... its just an example.
And simple computer programmers roles do have a 48% automation risk on that table. Then, I'd assume some other IT related roles (e.g. PM that only moves a pen from one place to another) would be replaced way before that

Stheno

mvl wrote: »

Examples of top paid / high risk jobs in here https://willrobotstakemyjob.com/top-paid-high-risk-jobs
- there may be more recent studies ... its just an example.
And simple computer programmers roles do have a 48% automation risk on that table. Then, I'd assume some other IT related roles (e.g. PM that only moves a pen from one place to another) would be replaced way before that

There are very few senior management jobs there, I'd say you could base it along the lines that jobs that are more strategic and tactical would be more difficult to automate

mvl

mvl wrote: »

Examples of top paid / high risk jobs in here https://willrobotstakemyjob.com/top-paid-high-risk-jobs
- there may be more recent studies ... its just an example.
........

Looks like a load of sh1t really.......

15. Judges, Magistrate Judges, and Magistrates.....40%
16. Elevator Installers and Repairers........39%
17. Electrical and Electronics Repairers, Powerhouse, Substation.........38%
18. Detectives and Criminal Investigators ........ 34%

Stheno

Augeo wrote: »

Looks like a load of sh1t really.......


18. Detectives and Criminal Investigators ........ 34%

Minority report springs to mind

KyussB

Jim2007 wrote: »

Why do you need to feel you belong to a company in the first place? My family, my friends and my local community very much so, but a company no. It’s an economic arrangement, I’m not there to socialize or be popular, I’m there to do a job and get well paid for doing it.

Was using the wording of the poster I was replying to.

Technocentral

KyussB wrote: »

Was using the wording of the poster I was replying to.

Corporate culture and language is complete bollox, I never felt a sense of belonging to a capitalist entity in my life and I never will.

Biker79

Support roles in an organisation are typically:

- Facilities ( reception, building maintenance, catering )
- Financial operations ( payroll, procurement )
- Customer services
- IT infrastructure operations ( server support, networking, user devices, application support )
- HR operations

All of these can be outsourced to service providers. Service providers will soon be able to automate the provision of these services at scale, especially IT. For the rest, salaries will likely stagnate, as the value add won't be there.

If I were in any of those areas above, I wouldn't want to permanently WFH, nor would I if I was a contractor in any area of the business ( unless I was well connected internally ).

Stheno

Biker79 wrote: »

Support roles in an organisation are typically:

- Facilities ( reception, building maintenance, catering )
- Financial operations ( payroll, procurement )
- Customer services
- IT infrastructure operations ( server support, networking, user devices, application support )
- HR operations

All of these can be outsourced to service providers. Service providers will soon be able to automate the provision of these services at scale, especially IT. For the rest, salaries will likely stagnate, as the value add won't be there.

If I were in any of those areas above, I wouldn't want to permanently WFH, nor would I if I was a contractor in any area of the business ( unless I was well connected internally ).

Where I work all the IT stuff you mention is outsourced.

The only permanent.staff in the IT department manage the outsourced service providers

Tec Diver

In a previous job, I worked from home for over four years, only going to the office to socalise one day every 2-3 weeks. Difficult to get a day when there was a good group of colleagues in the office though.

I would happily relocate to Portugal/Malta or similar and work from there if I knew in advance which days I was required in the office and could get a cheap return flight.
Having said all of that, I'm starting a new job in July and that will involve going to customer sites 4 days a week, so WFH more than a day a week not really an option for me in the foreseeable...

Biker79

Stheno wrote: »

Where I work all the IT stuff you mention is outsourced.

The only permanent.staff in the IT department manage the outsourced service providers

Exactly. The MSPs will automate their services, in order to grow and remain competitive. The Internal IT staff have been relegated to managing those providers ( emails and a few meetings ). No IT skills required there and consequently, their salaries will stagnate.

Which is also why you see masters in cybersecurity, dev ops and data analytics being heavily subsidised. (https://www.ictskillnet.ie/ www.springboardcourses.iefor example )

Stheno

Biker79 wrote: »

Exactly. The MSPs will automate their services, in order to grow and remain competitive. The Internal IT staff have been relegated to managing those providers ( emails and a few meetings ). No IT skills required there and consequently, their salaries will stagnate.
)

Eh I think you might be underestimating the effort involved in managing very heavily outsourced IT environments

Emails and a few meetings indeed :pac:

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

Support roles in an organisation are typically:

- Facilities ( reception, building maintenance, catering )
- Financial operations ( payroll, procurement )
- Customer services
- IT infrastructure operations ( server support, networking, user devices, application support )
- HR operations

All of these can be outsourced to service providers............

What % of the roles you mention make up the total workforce in these organisations?

Anywhere I've worked has a handful of HR folk for 1000+ employees, outsourced IT, a few in payroll, no customer service effectively ........ facilities etc all outsourced.

Mike3287

Augeo wrote: »

What % of the roles you mention make up the total workforce in these organisations?

Anywhere I've worked has a handful of HR folk for 1000+ employees, outsourced IT, a few in payroll, no customer service effectively ........ facilities etc all outsourced.

Does it matter?

Any wfh role can be outsourced

Mike3287

Mike3287 wrote: »

Does it matter?

Any wfh role can be outsourced

Well it sounds like he's talking about days gone by or something and a tiny minority of the workforce.

Any role can be outsourced, wfh or not.

Biker79

Augeo wrote: »

What % of the roles you mention make up the total workforce in these organisations?

Anywhere I've worked has a handful of HR folk for 1000+ employees, outsourced IT, a few in payroll, no customer service effectively ........ facilities etc all outsourced.

I can give you 2 examples that I'm directly familiar with - Vodafone and Microsoft in Sandyford. Between 50 and 65% of staff in both those operations are external service providers.

The rest are permanent staff who are close to the business revenue stream - mostly senior management/ sales and marketing...some engineering.

I've heard of 70% in some large multi-nationals - Facebook/ Google

Biker79

Stheno wrote: »

Eh I think you might be underestimating the effort involved in managing very heavily outsourced IT environments

Emails and a few meetings indeed :pac:

For an organisation that has correctly implemented outsourcing, that's all there is to it.

If they have to fill gaps in the service, well then yes, there is a lot of work. But that's a fault of the MSP/ contract/ implementation.

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

I can give you 2 examples that I'm directly familiar with - Vodafone and Microsoft in Sandyford. Between 50 and 65% of staff in both those operations are external service providers.

The rest are permanent staff who are close to the business revenue stream - mostly senior management/ sales and marketing...some engineering.

I've heard of 70% in some large multi-nationals - Facebook/ Google

So they are already contractors?

afatbollix

Got the word from the boss that the office will stay closed till September.

So I'm going to go in and get my chair


We have a lad who is a contractor for us who lives in Bangkok. He just joins our stand up at noon local time and its 6 pm there.

It's easy for software companies tbh, We all have scrum masters checking up on people and have our daily calls to see what we are doing that day plan. Maybe other industries need to adapt to stand-ups/ To do boards etc. Learn from other industries.


Tbh I'm busier now than I was! In the office, I was the go-to person for problems so it meant I was taken here there and everywhere to sort something out. Whereas now Im getting my work done and able to push on with other tasks I've been putting off.

Biker79

Augeo wrote: »

So they are already contractors?

Service providers are contracted to the organisation. They are comprised of individual contractors and their entities ( own business or umbrella company ), and service companies who have either permanent staff or staff contracted to them on their books, working at that site.

None are employees of the main organisation.

All are (in the main) doing roles that are not directly revenue-generating.

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

Service providers are contracted to the organisation. They are comprised of individual contractors and their entities ( own business or umbrella company ), and service companies who have either permanent staff or staff contracted to them on their books, working at that site.

None are employees of the main organisation.

All are (in the main) doing roles that are not directly revenue-generating.

And these are the type of rolls that you reckon will soon be automated at scale? So wfh or not they are doomed, in your view?

Biker79

Augeo wrote: »

And these are the type of rolls that you reckon will soon be automated at scale? So wfh or not they are doomed, in your view?

In a non-unionised environment ( which is most tech companies and service-based multinationals ), business support roles sit on a sliding scale. At one end some are likely doomed. At the other, they are more susceptible.

The closer your job is to the revenue stream of the organisation, the better the conditions will be. The further, (which is most support roles), the more susceptible it will be to automation and other cost-saving measures like permanent WFH. In my view.

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

In a non-unionised environment ( which is most tech companies and service-based multinationals ), business support roles sit on a sliding scale. At one end some are likely doomed. At the other, they are more susceptible.

The closer your job is to the revenue stream of the organisation, the better the conditions will be. The further, (which is most support roles), the more susceptible it will be to automation and other cost-saving measures like permanent WFH. In my view.

But that's not really a WFH issue. Its what you reckon will be automated. Regardless of WFH or not some roles will/might get automated.

If WFH is cheaper for the organisation there's less reward (financial) to invest in autonomous solutions also.

Biker79

No, it's pointing out that WFH may end up being a bit of a poisoned chalice.

It's pointing out that a business may see it as a cost-saving opportunity in the same way that they would consider automation for certain tasks. ( Ebay/ Apple/ Amazon customer service roles are an example ).

Anyway - its something to think about. Not an issue for some ...but it may well be for others.

There's always an incentive to automate tasks if it delivers more value - WFH or not.

PirateShampoo

Biker79 wrote: »

No, it's pointing out that WFH may end up being a bit of a poisoned chalice.
.

Of course it is, people are ignoring the fact there is a whole economy of people who lose out if WFH becomes the norm. From the bus driver to the coffee shop and the cleaners who clean your building.

gnf_ireland

I am not sure many companies are ready for full time remote working for their entire workforce any time soon. I think we all accept it is exceptional times and while it may assist company speed up the move towards remote working, most will not adopt it completely.

However, I do see many companies adopting a partial remote working week, potentially 60% as a general rule. How long it will take for 100% to be the norm is another matter.

The reasons why I think this are:
1. Very few companies have had to onboard new staff remotely at this stage. When this does kick in, it will highlight additional challenges for both HR and the teams they are being onboarded to. The 'ramp-up' time in a lot of cases are likely to be much longer
2. Wait until the whole graduate recruitment or interim's thing kicks in. Doing that remotely will be a major challenge
3. Many people simply do not have suitable working environments at home. The number of people I know who are working from the kitchen table or taking calls in the kids bedrooms at the moment is crazy. All of this is accepted now, but likely not once all of this becomes normalised
4. Managers in particular are struggling, as they feel they are losing control. Their normal ways of working are eroded and they need to be replaced. Yes of course they can be replaced, but I would be amazed if 50% of managers across the country are telling their management teams that the remote working is causing a loss in productivity etc, just so they can get back to the status quo as soon as possible. If enough people say it, people will believe it, whether its true or not

But I also agree that long term, fully remote working is likely to become more outsourced/contractor driven and in many cases the ability to be able to communicate effectively via conference/video calls will become an important skill. The same with the ability to build 'virtual' relationships. I see more 'company all-hands' conferences from time to time - but will very much depend on the industry and how quickly they adapt

BTW - something I also see triggered from the COVID crises is the demise of cash. It was of course happening before this, but is effectively on steroids at this stage. I suspect in 2 years, cash may be nearly seen as the proceeds of crime

mvl

While no one is saying that full time wfh would be adopted in companies across the board, full time wfh can be adopted in a high percentage (higher than 80%) in certain departments.

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I
1. Very few companies have had to onboard new staff remotely at this stage. When this does kick in, it will highlight additional challenges for both HR and the teams they are being onboarded to. The 'ramp-up' time in a lot of cases are likely to be much longer
2. Wait until the whole graduate recruitment or interim's thing kicks in. Doing that remotely will be a major challenge
...

Think part of the points 1,2 must be first addressed in 3rd level education: it is not normal for some of the graduates to take so long to be onboarded; curricula should adapt / improve...don't know how long that may take though. Also, at that level, trainees end up supervised by someone average in a team, or even a scrum master // can be part of the 20% supporting staff that ends up temporary onsite (while rest of the staff does wfh 100%).
For senior roles, I would not expect any onboarding onsite taking more than few weeks; besides, seniors should also be able to manage any necessary handovers in virtual setups. Just that their productivity needs to be benchmarked while in probation (but I am sure there is tooling to support that)
Not really challenges for either, but opportunities ...

Jim Root

afatbollix wrote: »

Got the word from the boss that the office will stay closed till September.

So I'm going to go in and get my chair


We have a lad who is a contractor for us who lives in Bangkok. He just joins our stand up at noon local time and its 6 pm there.

It's easy for software companies tbh, We all have scrum masters checking up on people and have our daily calls to see what we are doing that day plan. Maybe other industries need to adapt to stand-ups/ To do boards etc. Learn from other industries.


Tbh I'm busier now than I was! In the office, I was the go-to person for problems so it meant I was taken here there and everywhere to sort something out. Whereas now Im getting my work done and able to push on with other tasks I've been putting off.

Genuine question, where can I read more about stand ups....how do they work in a remote environment??

Stheno

Jim Root wrote: »

Genuine question, where can I read more about stand ups....how do they work in a remote environment??

Video

Otherwise same format applies

Sunny Disposition

Jim2007 wrote: »

Why do you need to feel you belong to a company in the first place? My family, my friends and my local community very much so, but a company no. It’s an economic arrangement, I’m not there to socialize or be popular, I’m there to do a job and get well paid for doing it.

Many years ago I started a company with a handful of guys who I felt an obligation to. Over time it grew and grew and eventually I had to realise that my workers were just hired help and I couldn’t possibly form an attachment with them all. No one ‘belongs’ to or with a company when it goes over a certain size unfortunately. It’s an economic arrangement that has to suit both parties, it can be as hard for employers to accept this as employees,.

jester77

Jim Root wrote: »

Genuine question, where can I read more about stand ups....how do they work in a remote environment??

They work exactly the same remotely as non-remotely.
Have a read up on XP, scrum or kanban to get info on it.

spaceHopper

bilbot79 wrote: »

This isn't unfeasible at all

Dublin gaff 550 splits into

Irish countryside gaff - 300
Pad 1 abroad - 125
Pad 2 abroad -125

What's up doc?

What about the bank? Will they not want their money back, your mortgage paid off fine but otherwise dream on

Neames

I see a headline today on the Irish Times that the government is considering income tax benefits for working from home.

I don't have an online subscription to the Irish Times so can't see beyond the headline. Anyone have any details on this?

Stheno

Neames wrote: »

I see a headline today on the Irish Times that the government is considering income tax benefits for working from home.

I don't have an online subscription to the Irish Times so can't see beyond the headline. Anyone have any details on this?

If you post the link I can post the details here

Mrs OBumble

This week, I got my first request to investigate trackerware software for one company I'm supporting.

Fwiw.

I'm sure there will be more.

ELM327

What is trackerware?
If it's time monitoring/productivity monitoring I'm sure most companies have this already

quokula

Jim2007 wrote: »

Why do you need to feel you belong to a company in the first place? My family, my friends and my local community very much so, but a company no. It’s an economic arrangement, I’m not there to socialize or be popular, I’m there to do a job and get well paid for doing it.

Friends and family sure, but local community is just a coincidence of where I could afford accommodation and who else could afford a place nearby, I don't understand how that's any different to the "economic arrangement" of a company.

My colleagues are all people with a shared interest because we all chose to go into the field we work in. We also have a shared common purpose as we work together to achieve our goals every day, and we've built up a strong trust in each other whilst doing that. Why would I feel more "belonging" to people who happen to live physically near me than those people?

Neames

Stheno wrote: »

If you post the link I can post the details here

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/next-government-could-bring-in-work-from-home-tax-incentives-taoiseach-1.4262362

There you go Stheno thanks very much

tastyt

That’s very interesting, if there are government incentives given to companies to encourage wfh then it’s definitely here to stay.

Really makes sense in regards to public transport, traffic , pedestrianising some city streets and making them more pleasurable places and maybe , in time , rent and property prices .

I can’t really see a downside where it’s possible as long as productivity remains similar

Stheno

Neames wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/next-government-could-bring-in-work-from-home-tax-incentives-taoiseach-1.4262362

There you go Stheno thanks very much

Here you go

A Government spokesman added: “Current Government policy is to encourage firms to allow more home-working and also more flexible working. It could therefore make sense for the next government to look at ways of encouraging more home-working in the long run. And the proposal for tax incentives, suggested by the NBRU, is certainly worth considering.”

Mr Martin also told Mr O’Leary that all options must be considered in helping public transport deal with the effects of the virus, such as “staggering starting times for schools, third-level institutions and workplaces as well as supporting those who wish to work from home”.

Fianna Fáil did not provide further clarity on what kind of support Mr Martin envisaged for working from home. The joint framework document already agreed between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael said the public sector would be mandated to “move to 20 per cent home and remote working in 2021” and that “incentives” would be provided for “private sector employers to do likewise”.

KyussB

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

This week, I got my first request to investigate trackerware software for one company I'm supporting.

Fwiw.

I'm sure there will be more.

Here you go guys - exactly as I predicted earlier in the thread - this here is your future working from home:
https://www.veriato.com/solutions/use-cases/remote-employee-monitoring

Complete employer spying/viewing of your home computers. Want a job? Give up all your privacy, to any manager that wants to snoop through your home devices.

Surprised at how little time that took to begin entering the mainstream.

Snow Garden

I talked to 2 people today in 2 different organisations (1 public, 1 private). They have both been asked whether they wish to work from home after restrictions are lifted. The person in the public service (3rd level institution) was offered 5 days a week WFH. They other was offered up to 3 days WFH.
The trend to WFH will not only continue, it will accelerate.

Sunrise_Sunset

I'm starting a new job soon after years of being an SAHM. It will be WFH to begin with. My salary is nothing to write home about so I'm really banking on being able to continue WFH for at least half of the week. Otherwise childcare costs would take a huge chunk of my salary, as it does for many others.

Stheno

KyussB wrote: »

Here you go guys - exactly as I predicted earlier in the thread - this here is your future working from home:
https://www.veriato.com/solutions/use-cases/remote-employee-monitoring

Complete employer spying/viewing of your home computers. Want a job? Give up all your privacy, to any manager that wants to snoop through your home devices.

Surprised at how little time that took to begin entering the mainstream.

Why would you use personal devices for work?

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

.........

Surprised at how little time that took to begin entering the mainstream.

If you don't perform to your job requirements you'd be found out without any of that crap being required IMO.

jrosen

Sunrise_Sunset wrote: »

I'm starting a new job soon after years of being an SAHM. It will be WFH to begin with. My salary is nothing to write home about so I'm really banking on being able to continue WFH for at least half of the week. Otherwise childcare costs would take a huge chunk of my salary, as it does for many others.

What is the new jobs policy on childcare? Is there an acceptance your children are in your care while your working?

KyussB

Stheno wrote: »

Why would you use personal devices for work?

I think you just missed the point to a staggering degree.

Sunrise_Sunset

jrosen wrote: »

What is the new jobs policy on childcare? Is there an acceptance your children are in your care while your working?

Yes, for now anyway.
Once I'm past my probationary period I will be requesting to WFH a couple of days a week. It could even be a requirement or something that is offered by the employer at that stage, who knows.
My kids are of school going age and reasonably self sufficient around the house so I could still work.

jrosen

jrosen wrote: »

What is the new jobs policy on childcare? Is there an acceptance your children are in your care while your working?

Surely WFH after the pandemic will be subject to being able to demonstrate that you can focus on your work for X hours a day (albeit will some degree of flexibility over when those are). If you have a couple of toddlers and are relying on WFH to be able to look after them full time, that won’t be acceptable to the employer

Biker79

KyussB wrote: »

I think you just missed the point to a staggering degree.

This is false.

WFH home will allow companies greater control over devices used to access their networks for the purposes of data security primarily. Employee productivity is further down the list of priorities.

While some WFH home options may allow you to use a personal device, these won't be ideal post-COVID-19. Any system that allows a complete end to end monitoring of information flow will be the preferred choice. This relates to GDPR/ data security compliance.

ELM327

KyussB wrote: »

Here you go guys - exactly as I predicted earlier in the thread - this here is your future working from home:
https://www.veriato.com/solutions/use-cases/remote-employee-monitoring

Complete employer spying/viewing of your home computers. Want a job? Give up all your privacy, to any manager that wants to snoop through your home devices.

Surprised at how little time that took to begin entering the mainstream.

No one is going to be using personal devices for work