Covid19 Part XVII-24,841 in ROI (1,639 deaths) 4,679 in NI (518 deaths)(28/05)Read OP

eagle eye

weldoninhio wrote:

May not sound unreasonable to you, but it is never going to happen. May as well dream here as in bed.

If numbers start to creep up again I think they'll have no choice. We can't keep locking the country down.

Kermit.de.frog

Belgium's situation has improved drastically.

Just 227 new cases and 24 deaths today. From where they were only 2 weeks a go that is a fantastic turnaround.

podgeandrodge

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Belgium's situation has improved drastically.

Just 227 new cases and 24 deaths today. From where they were only 2 weeks a go that is a fantastic turnaround.

Excellent news Kermit. You truly are the purveyor of good news

Widdensushi

Onesea wrote: »

Your Gona buy flights, bring spending money and you wanna visit family a friends.
Then you read the Irish embassy stating a 14 day quarantine when entering Ireland.. Just keep the place closed as nobody is going to visit unless they are willing to break the laws.

Airlines will be happy to get moving again but there will have to be bums in seats. As the above post mentions, the slow return will cost more than a complete stop.

It's almost as if they want you to break the rules, of course they do, if there is an outbreak they can move the responsibility to the individual, if they actually wanted the measures to be followed there would be more strict measures.

stephenjmcd

Onesea wrote: »

Your Gona buy flights, bring spending money and you wanna visit family a friends.
Then you read the Irish embassy stating a 14 day quarantine when entering Ireland.. Just keep the place closed as nobody is going to visit unless they are willing to break the laws.

Airlines will be happy to get moving again but there will have to be bums in seats. As the above post mentions, the slow return will cost more than a complete stop.

Theres no quarantine when entering Ireland. Its mandatory to fill in the locator form and that's it.

Drumpot

weldoninhio wrote: »

May not sound unreasonable to you, but it is never going to happen. May as well dream here as in bed.

Masks will happen if there is another surge, even if Irish people have to be forced like children, like when the had to bring in laws to fine people for going long distances.

The lack of foresight is quite astounding to read in these threads . Maybe there won’t be a second wave, but it would be mind numbingly idiotic and irresponsible to presume there won’t be and even more irresponsible to not have a contingency plan in place (which may involve stock piling masks). I’m seeing the same head in the sand presumptions from a lot of people In this thread And the same dismissive attitude that delayed our response and has cost us more as a result.

I prefer the slower, cautious re–opening but I hope it’s coupled with intelligent decisions made by government and companies to be able to adapt if things need to shut again. I would prefer they keep this 14 day quarantine rule for anybody flying in possibly for the rest of the year. I think this played a massive role in the numbers spreading so quickly. People being put off going on ski holidays might of made a huge difference to us on its own.

podgeandrodge

Jackman25 wrote: »

Common sense my hole. Going to home school till a vaccine comes ya?

eagle eye wrote: »

You clearly have reading comprehension issues. I didn't say anything in my post about waiting for a vaccine. I said I'm waiting until it's safe. If our government decide tomorrow to make it law to wear facemasks in urban areas, shops, public transport and all confined areas where you are meeting members if the public and put testing with quarantine until you are cleared in place for all wishing to enter the country we'd possibly have no cases in a very short time. Keep the testing and quarantine in place when we reach zero cases and we are done with this and can continue on with our lives until such times as a vaccine becomes available. Does that sound unreasonable to you?

But is it not, in most people's minds, reasonably safe right now? The Government has not made it law to wear masks in shops (and notwithstanding this, more than one supermarket has now confirmed minute cases of infection of their staff), and has not enforced quarantine, yet still the community transmission is practically zero and cases have dropped to very low figures?

Purpose of lockdown was to minimise cases to enable health service to cope, not to stay locked down and inflict misery on the vast majority of the population who are not being infected. That's not to say we don't have a serious obligation (which I agree was not met sufficiently at all) to protect the elderly and vulnerable in such places as nursing homes).

In my view, for what it's worth, it's not as simple as masks and quarantine and it just disappears. It will hang around in some shape or form and our current broad approach of social distancing is keeping it in check. When restrictions lift, sure, cases will likely rise - and if it gets out of control we may have to look at bringing back certain measures.

Most people want to go out and live a bit more normally now that we have it reasonably contained, and are not unnecessarily concerned about the virus as it is not a serious threat to most.

I accept that people have different risk tolerances and that you take further precautions such as bringing your dogs for walks to the middle of nowhere to avoid meeting people, that you need to know who is involved in cooking and packing meals you eat, and that you "shut down" your family in February. And you are entitled to take such precautions.

But that really isn't what most of us are prepared to do.

stephenjmcd

Drumpot wrote: »

Masks will happen if there is another surge, even if Irish people have to be forced like children, like when the had to bring in laws to fine people for going long distances.

The lack of foresight is quite astounding to read in these threads . Maybe there won’t be a second wave, but it would be mind numbingly idiotic and irresponsible to presume there won’t be and even more irresponsible to not have a contingency plan in place (which may involve stock piling masks). I’m seeing the same head in the sand presumptions from a lot of people In this thread And the same dismissive attitude that delayed our response and has cost us more as a result.

I prefer the slower, cautious re–opening but I hope it’s coupled with intelligent decisions made by government and companies to be able to adapt if things need to shut again. I would prefer they keep this 14 day quarantine rule for anybody flying in possibly for the rest of the year. I think this played a massive role in the numbers spreading so quickly. People being put off going on ski holidays might of made a huge difference to us on its own.

There is no 14 day quarantine rule

Drumpot

stephenjmcd wrote: »

There is no 14 day quarantine rule

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-rules-for-arrivals-to-ireland-start-today-what-is-changing-1.4264028

What is changing to the rules for quarantining visitors?

From Thursday, all passengers arriving into the country are legally required to complete a Covid-19 passenger locator form making it mandatory for travellers arriving into the airports and ports to tell the State where they will be self-isolating for 14 days. Self-isolation means completely avoiding contact with others and is more stringent that the stay-at-home measures that the wider public are having to adhere to. The form will remain in place until June 18th.

Widdensushi

Drumpot wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-rules-for-arrivals-to-ireland-start-today-what-is-changing-1.4264028

What is changing to the rules for quarantining visitors?

From Thursday, all passengers arriving into the country are legally required to complete a Covid-19 passenger locator form making it mandatory for travellers arriving into the airports and ports to tell the State where they will be self-isolating for 14 days. Self-isolation means completely avoiding contact with others and is more stringent that the stay-at-home measures that the wider public are having to adhere to. The form will remain in place until June 18th.

Mandatory to fill in the form

Plumbthedepths

stephenjmcd wrote: »

There is no 14 day quarantine rule

No enforcement either. Although is mandatory to sign the form.
The new rules won't fly with the EU as we never declared an emergency. One challenge will consign the rules to a bin.

Drumpot

Widdensushi wrote: »

Mandatory to fill in the form

If you are caught breaking the rules you can be fined €2500. I’d say that’s a decent deterrent.

Drumpot

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

No enforcement either. Although is mandatory to sign the form.
The new rules won't fly with the EU as we never declared an emergency. One challenge will consign the rules to a bin.

What happens if people refuse to fill out the form?

They can face a fine of up to €2,500 or six months in prison, or both, if they do not complete the form, if they provide false or misleading information, or if they fail to provide an update of any information should they move to a different location within the 14-day isolation period.

How will these rules be monitored or enforced?

Follow-up checks can be made to make sure people who travel into the country are staying where they said they would be. If there is a confirmed or suspected case on a flight or ferry coming into the country, the form will allow State officials to carry out more accurate and quicker contact tracing to identify any people who had contact with the infected individual on a plane or boat. It is an offence to refuse to provide information requested to verify the details on the form.

Plumbthedepths

Drumpot wrote: »

What happens if people refuse to fill out the form?

They can face a fine of up to €2,500 or six months in prison, or both, if they do not complete the form, if they provide false or misleading information, or if they fail to provide an update of any information should they move to a different location within the 14-day isolation period.

How will these rules be monitored or enforced?

Follow-up checks can be made to make sure people who travel into the country are staying where they said they would be. If there is a confirmed or suspected case on a flight or ferry coming into the country, the form will allow State officials to carry out more accurate and quicker contact tracing to identify any people who had contact with the infected individual on a plane or boat. It is an offence to refuse to provide information requested to verify the details on the form.

Sure it's easy to fill out a form, the rest is nonsense that will not be followed up as the resources don't exist. Lastly they rules most likely fall foul if EU regs and they will be challenged and quietly dropped in the bin.
Of course the 'rules' will soothe the fear in many quarters, but absolutely meaningless tbh other than to send out the wrong message internationally.

stephenjmcd

Drumpot wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-rules-for-arrivals-to-ireland-start-today-what-is-changing-1.4264028

What is changing to the rules for quarantining visitors?

From Thursday, all passengers arriving into the country are legally required to complete a Covid-19 passenger locator form making it mandatory for travellers arriving into the airports and ports to tell the State where they will be self-isolating for 14 days. Self-isolation means completely avoiding contact with others and is more stringent that the stay-at-home measures that the wider public are having to adhere to. The form will remain in place until June 18th.

Its mandatory to fill in the form that's it. Theres no mandatory quarantine

SEPT 23 1989

Electronic tagging could be a solution

stephenjmcd

Drumpot wrote: »

If you are caught breaking the rules you can be fined €2500. I’d say that’s a decent deterrent.

Theres no rules for quarantine, its not enforceable nor is there any legislation around it.

Failure to fill out the form will be punishable by a fine of up to €2,500 or up to six months in prison

Drumpot

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Theres no rules for quarantine, its not enforceable nor is there any legislation around it.

Failure to fill out the form will be punishable by a fine of up to €2,500 or up to six months in prison

And if they do a follow up check on where you are staying and you are not at home, what happens?

stephenjmcd

Drumpot wrote: »

What happens if people refuse to fill out the form?

They can face a fine of up to €2,500 or six months in prison, or both, if they do not complete the form, if they provide false or misleading information, or if they fail to provide an update of any information should they move to a different location within the 14-day isolation period.

How will these rules be monitored or enforced?

Follow-up checks can be made to make sure people who travel into the country are staying where they said they would be. If there is a confirmed or suspected case on a flight or ferry coming into the country, the form will allow State officials to carry out more accurate and quicker contact tracing to identify any people who had contact with the infected individual on a plane or boat. It is an offence to refuse to provide information requested to verify the details on the form.

Again and I dont know how this is difficult to understand.

The form is mandatory, the quarantine is not, it was addressed yesterday as not being able to be done legally.

Grand I put on the form when coming back in my address as my house, are you still there, yeah I'm still living there, that's grand so I've not moved address.

Deeper Blue

Headline on rte: "South Korea fears second wave as new cases spike"

To clarify, that's a massive 79 new cases in a country of 50 MILLION PEOPLE.

Fearmongering like that from our national broadcaster is truly shameful. No wonder so many people are scared stiff.

Plumbthedepths

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Electronic tagging could be a solution

Not a hope.

Plumbthedepths

NDWC wrote: »

Headline on rte: "South Korea fears second wave as new cases spike"

To clarify, that's a massive 79 new cases in a country of 50 MILLION PEOPLE.

Fearmongering like that from our national broadcaster is truly shameful. No wonder so many people are scared stiff.

RTE is a disgrace.

stephenjmcd

Drumpot wrote: »

And if they do a follow up check on where you are staying and you are not at home, what happens?

Absolutely nothing.

So long as you still reside at that address theres absolutely nothing they can do. Quarantine is non enforceable under Irish law. It was addressed in the Dáil yesterday. It's being portrayed in the media as a quarantine. Its not, fill in the form with the address you live at and away you go.

The punishment you've listed is in the event you fail to fill in the form

growleaves

It's being portrayed in the media as a quarantine.

That will be enough to confuse many people into not travelling, so job done I suppose.

Eod100

Yeah Harris was asked on Prime Time the other night and said its difficult legally to make it mandatory but they're working on it apparently. A bit late in the day I think. Only real way would be by taking over airports at hotel and using them but not sure there'd be enough rooms and whether you'd legally be able to control people's movement like that.

It might interfere with free movement of people from EU say, not sure if public health law would be strong enough to allow it.

eagle eye

podgeandrodge wrote:

But is it not, in most people's minds, reasonably safe right now? The Government has not made it law to wear masks in shops (and notwithstanding this, more than one supermarket has now confirmed minute cases of infection of their staff), and has not enforced quarantine, yet still the community transmission is practically zero and cases have dropped to very low figures?

Most people's minds only come ncern me in how relaxed and irresponsible they will become.
We haven't had much travel inwards to this point.

podgeandrodge wrote:

Purpose of lockdown was to minimise cases to enable health service to cope, not to stay locked down and inflict misery on the vast majority of the population who are not being infected. That's not to say we don't have a serious obligation (which I agree was not met sufficiently at all) to protect the elderly and vulnerable in such places as nursing homes).

Social distancing has clearly been great but once the lockdown ends community transmission is back in play. Facemasks reduce community transmission in tandem with social distancing.

podgeandrodge wrote:

In my view, for what it's worth, it's not as simple as masks and quarantine and it just disappears. It will hang around in some shape or form and our current broad approach of social distancing is keeping it in check. When restrictions lift, sure, cases will likely rise - and if it gets out of control we may have to look at bringing back certain measures.

I disagree, if we can get to zero cases for a couple of weeks then we are golden so long as testing and quarantining is in place. If we eradicate it the only way to keep it out is quarantine.

podgeandrodge wrote:

Most people want to go out and live a bit more normally now that we have it reasonably contained, and are not unnecessarily concerned about the virus as it is not a serious threat to most.

We all want to get back to as close to normal as we can. I'm all on for that as soon as it's safe to do so. Where we are right now is promising. I'm one for going in for the kill when you get ahead. The extra measures I mention are exactly that.

podgeandrodge wrote:

I accept that people have different risk tolerances and that you take further precautions such as bringing your dogs for walks to the middle of nowhere to avoid meeting people, that you need to know who is involved in cooking and packing meals you eat, and that you "shut down" your family in February. And you are entitled to take such precautions.

I have underlying conditions so I'm concerned about contracting this virus.
I'm not worried about meat packers, you can take precautions to ensure there is no transmission from pretty much anything you buy in a shop.
As for buying cooked meals, supermacs, McDonald's etc. Not a chance I'm doing that.

podgeandrodge wrote:

But that really isn't what most of us are prepared to do.

The big problems are the idiots who are less worried about things. They just get it in their heads that they are safe and just carry on regardless. Then there's the employees who bend over backwards for their bosses and even when something isn't totally safe they do it anyways for the praise, or the hope it'll lead to a promotion or whatever reason. Then you have the guy who doesn't tell anybody when he is sick and tries to hide it.
These are pretty common traits in a lot of Irish people. These are the traits that will lead to community transmission.

Drumpot

growleaves wrote: »

That will be enough to confuse many people into not travelling, so job done I suppose.

I think you are right, it will effectively do the same job for now.

You are Signing a form that’s declaring where you are self isolating for 14 days. If they went to that destination to find you for any reason And you are not there, then you are not self isolating.

That would be a problem if there was an outbreak on your plane and you are off at social events. It’s not exactly clear what happens here. You can take the approach that technically they can’t fine or jail you but you have signed a form declaring where you will self isolate and haven’t self isolated so you’ve lied. Most people won’t want to take that chance.

podgeandrodge

eagle eye wrote: »

Most people's minds only come ncern me in how relaxed and irresponsible they will become.
We haven't had much travel inwards to this point.


Social distancing has clearly been great but once the lockdown ends community transmission is back in play. Facemasks reduce community transmission in tandem with social distancing.


I disagree, if we can get to zero cases for a couple of weeks then we are golden so long as testing and quarantining is in place. If we eradicate it the only way to keep it out is quarantine.


We all want to get back to as close to normal as we can. I'm all on for that as soon as it's safe to do so. Where we are right now is promising. I'm one for going in for the kill when you get ahead. The extra measures I mention are exactly that.


I have underlying conditions so I'm concerned about contracting this virus.
I'm not worried about meat packers, you can take precautions to ensure there is no transmission from pretty much anything you buy in a shop.
As for buying cooked meals, supermacs, McDonald's etc. Not a chance I'm doing that.


The big problems are the idiots who are less worried about things. They just get it in their heads that they are safe and just carry on regardless. Then there's the employees who bend over backwards for their bosses and even when something isn't totally safe they do it anyways for the praise, or the hope it'll lead to a promotion or whatever reason. Then you have the guy who doesn't tell anybody when he is sick and tries to hide it.
These are pretty common traits in a lot of Irish people. These are the traits that will lead to community transmission.

Thanks eagle eye. I do see your points. It's a reality that we all have different perspectives on this, which align with our own personal lives I guess.

I am getting 2 chinese takeaways per week, and the odd quarter pounder and chips in my local chipper, so I am hoping that my risk tolerance will not go against me! Maybe I should be worried about that consumption regardless of Covid!

Uriel.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Attempt to rewrite history, don't make me laugh. The failures on all sides is well documented. Only one trying to change the narrative here and that is you.
The state has a duty of care to all citizens regardless of what setting they are in, the state failed. There is no denying that whether you like it or not.

How am I trying change the narrative?
So you're saying these private businesses who were paid and legally obliged to care for their residents have no responsibility?

stephenjmcd

Drumpot wrote: »

I think you are right, it will effectively do the same job for now.

You are Signing a form that’s declaring where you are self isolating for 14 days. If they went to that destination to find you for any reason And you are not there, then you are not self isolating.

That would be a problem if there was an outbreak on your plane and you are off at social events. It’s not exactly clear what happens here. You can take the approach that technically they can’t fine or jail you but you have signed a form declaring where you will self isolate and haven’t self isolated so you’ve lied. Most people won’t want to take that chance.

For the love of god, again...

Your signing a form telling them where your located in Ireland and where your coming from. I've seen the form, your not signing anything to say you'll be self isolating because it's not allowed under law.

It's a form with your details and your address, that's it.

There's fcuk all they can do if they check in and your not there. The gardai also dont have the resources to go around checking, it'll be a phone call if anything.

Again I'll repeat your not signing any form to say your self isolating, your giving your details, where you've come from and where you'll be residing in the country, that's it. Your declaring nothing about self isolating, it would need a completely different law.

It's not difficult to understand