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Unpaid leave for medical reasons

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  • 05-05-2020 6:36pm
    #1
    kozak
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭


    Hello
    My wife has problems with her employer arranging unpaid leave for medical reasons.
    She is in her 50s with some health issues. Last 6 weeks she was on sick leave with a flu (not Corona virus), but still nasty.
    Now she's recovering, but not fit to work yet as her job is physically challenging.
    GP recommended some tests in hospital, but she consider visit to hospital too risky, high chance to get coronavirus.
    She wants to take annual leave or unpaid leave, but employer says that it's not possible to go to from sick leave straight to annual leave, she should come back to work first.
    Any advice or experience?
    Thanks


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    #2
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,570 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    There is no entitlement to unpaid leave and AL dates are at employers discretion, if she is unable to work due to health reasons, why is her sick leave cert not extended?


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    #3
    kozak
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭kozak


    Dav010 wrote: »
    There is no entitlement to unpaid leave and AL dates are at employers discretion, if she is unable to work due to health reasons, why is her sick leave cert not extended?

    GP recommended some tests in hospital, but she consider visit to hospital too risky, high chance to get coronavirus.


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    #4
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,570 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    kozak wrote: »
    GP recommended some tests in hospital, but she consider visit to hospital too risky, high chance to get coronavirus.

    No sick cert now?

    What does contract/handbook say?


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    #5
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    kozak wrote: »
    GP recommended some tests in hospital, but she consider visit to hospital too risky, high chance to get coronavirus.

    People are being encouraged to go to hospital if they need to.

    Hospitals are split into COVID and non COVID areas

    My 75 year old neighbour with multiple issues had to attend with one of those issues a few weeks ago and is fine

    She should go get the tests done and not delay identifying any issues she may have health wise


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    #6
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    kozak wrote: »
    .
    She wants to take annual leave or unpaid leave, but employer says that it's not possible to go to from sick leave straight to annual leave, she should come back to work first.
    Any advice or experience?
    Thanks

    Yes. She should head into the office, do a back to work interview, and apply for annual leave. She can arrange the formalities beforehand, wear a mask, ask for interview to be outdoors if possible, use hand sanitiser.


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    #7
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,974 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    antix80 wrote: »
    Yes. She should head into the office, do a back to work interview, and apply for annual leave. She can arrange the formalities beforehand, wear a mask, ask for interview to be outdoors if possible, use hand sanitiser.

    She is still too sick for work though.

    OP your wife needs to start following the doctors instructions. S/he would not be sending into hospital for tests at the moment unless they are needed. The risk of what she may have must be worse than the risks of Covid.


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    #8
    kozak
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭kozak


    Dav010 wrote: »
    No sick cert now?

    What does contract/handbook say?

    Contract doesn't have such details. Employer never provided handbook, one of those careless places


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    #9
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,570 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    kozak wrote: »
    Contract doesn't have such details. Employer never provided handbook, one of those careless places

    Does she have a sick cert now?


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    #10
    kozak
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭kozak


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    She is still too sick for work though.
    The risk of what she may have must be worse than the risks of Covid.

    Her condition now is not life-threatening, while Covid is life threatening. Level of hygiene in hospitals is open for discussion and definitely leaves a room for improvement. Otherwise we would not have 22k Covid cases


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kozak wrote: »
    Her condition now is not life-threatening, while Covid is life threatening. Level of hygiene in hospitals is open for discussion and definitely leaves a room for improvement. Otherwise we would not have 22k Covid cases

    The vast majority of cases of COVID-19 are not life threatening. I have an idea of why your GP is suggesting that she should attend for tests (from the limited information you have given). I'd advise her to go.


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    #12
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    kozak wrote: »
    Her condition now is not life-threatening, while Covid is life threatening. Level of hygiene in hospitals is open for discussion and definitely leaves a room for improvement. Otherwise we would not have 22k Covid cases

    Covid 19 is not life threatening for the vast majority of the population

    Either you both are woefully ignorant of the facts, or are looking to find an excuse for her not to go back to work, unless she has one of the key underlying conditions, such as obesity, hypertension, diabetes etc

    Would you prefer she die of an untreated illness?

    Of the 22k cases a huge amount have recovered

    And 22k out of a population of 5 million is less than half of one percent of the population being infected

    Go to the hospital and get the tests done


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    #13
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The fact that we have 22k Covid cases doesn't mean, in itself, that any of them are the result of transmission in hospital.

    Obviously there is some risk to your wife in going to hospital. There always was, even before the days of CV, because hospitals are places where people with infectious diseases go. But there is also a risk in not going to hospital, if she is in need of diagnosis or therapy which can only be had in hospital. Your wife needs to work out which is the greater risk. She needs to do this not by reasoning that, because there are 22k cases of CV19, hospitals must be very dangerous places but by getting information on how many cases of CV transmission are actually attributed to people being infected while they are hospital inpatients or outpatients.

    I should also point out that I think you're in the wrong forum. You're approaching this as though the problem requiring solution here is the employer's attitude. It's not; the problem is to know what is best for your wife to do from the point of protecting her own health. She should talk to her doctor, not her employer, about the relative risks of going to hospital for tests versus not being tested.


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    #14
    kozak
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭kozak


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Does she have a sick cert now?
    No cert for the last 3 days, but still unfit to work. Before this she was sick with cert for 6 weeks.


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    #15
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,574 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    kozak wrote: »
    Hello
    My wife has problems with her employer arranging unpaid leave for medical reasons.
    She is in her 50s with some health issues. Last 6 weeks she was on sick leave with a flu (not Corona virus), but still nasty.
    Now she's recovering, but not fit to work yet as her job is physically challenging.
    GP recommended some tests in hospital, but she consider visit to hospital too risky, high chance to get coronavirus.
    She wants to take annual leave or unpaid leave, but employer says that it's not possible to go to from sick leave straight to annual leave, she should come back to work first.
    Any advice or experience?
    Thanks
    Hospitals are well segregated into Covid19 clean and dirty zones and she would be perfectly safe going for her tests.

    She has no entitlement to unpaid leave.


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    #16
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,570 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    kozak wrote: »
    No cert for the last 3 days, but still unfit to work. Before this she was sick with cert for 6 weeks.

    This is going to be the issue in relation to her employer. Her GP believes her to be fit to work. If the business is open, she is now absent without leave, that is a problem.


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    #17
    kozak
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭kozak


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You're approaching this as though the problem requiring solution here is the employer's attitude.

    My original question is non medical - about possibilities of unpaid leave in this situation.
    And BTW it's proven in Italy hospitals were main contributors to covid transmission. The same is here, just not investigated yet.


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    #18
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You say that she is currently not fit for work, but doesn't have a cert from the doctor to say so. Is the doctor refusing to sign her off unless she agrees to go for the tests? Or is he refusing to sign her off from work, period?


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    #19
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    kozak wrote: »
    My original question is non medical - about possibilities of unpaid leave in this situation.
    And BTW it's proven in Italy hospitals were main contributors to covid transmission. The same is here, just not investigated yet.

    Stop with the conspiracy theories or post a link to your hype

    Your wife can do two things.

    1. Go to the hospital for tests
    2. Talk to her employer about continuing her leave unpaid as sick leave, but that's up to the employer


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    #20
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    kozak wrote: »
    My original question is non medical - about possibilities of unpaid leave in this situation.
    And BTW it's proven in Italy hospitals were main contributors to covid transmission. The same is here, just not investigated yet.
    If it hasn't been investigated here yet, I don't see how you can assert that the same is true here.

    On the employment issue, your wife has no right to unpaid leave; nobody does. If she wants to get unpaid leave she needs to agree it with the employer.

    I think the employer's problem will be this; if your wife had certified medical reasons, she could get paid leave. She's not seeking paid leave, suggesting that her doctor has declined to certify her unfit for work. The employer will be reluctant to grant leave, even unpaid, for claimed medical reasons that a medic won't sign off on. And they'll be even more reluctant to grant leave for claimed medical reasons for which your wife is refusing to accept diagnosis/treatment.
    So unless the employer has an established practice in relation to unpaid leave that your wife's case can be slotted into (e.g. long service leave, sabbatical leave) without any reference to medical issues, I think her chances are slim.

    However we are not living in normal times. Many employers suffering from lockdown-related slackness of trade might be glad to grant unpaid leave to an employee who wants it - it might be one less person they have to lay off. So there might be a possibility for your wife there.

    But the bottom line is that she has no entitlement here. She has to frame this in a way that meets the employer's needs and appeals to the employer as a good idea, and for preference does not depend at all on any claim of ill-health or unfitness for work that cannot be certified, because the employer will run a mile from that.


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    #21
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,974 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    kozak wrote: »
    Her condition now is not life-threatening, while Covid is life threatening.

    Clearly her GP disagrees.

    She needs to go and get the tests.


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    #22
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    If she is still unfit for work, contact her GP and ask for another cert. If she is recovered enough to return to work (pending tests), ask GP for a "Fit for Work" certificate (opposite of Unfit for Work) and then apply to go straight onto Annual Leave from Sick Leave.

    That is allowed where I work.


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    #23
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,570 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    AulWan wrote: »
    If she is still unfit for work, contact her GP and ask for another cert. If she is recovered enough to return to work (pending tests), ask GP for a "Fit for Work" certificate (opposite of Unfit for Work) and then apply to go straight onto Annual Leave from Sick Leave.

    That is allowed where I work.

    The op has said that her employer does not allow AL to follow SL. As you know AL time is at discretion of the employer, so what is allowed in your workplace is completely irrelevant. Also, a fitness to work cert is not the issue, the issue is the op does not have an illness cert presumably because she is not sick, but feels unfit to work.


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    #24
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    Dav010 wrote: »
    The op has said that her employer does not allow AL to follow SL. As you know AL time is at discretion of the employer, so what is allowed in your workplace is completely irrelevant. Also, a fitness to work cert is not the issue, the issue is the op does not have an illness cert presumably because she is not sick, but feels unfit to work.

    Which is why I said apply. Jesus, why is everyone on this site so rude?

    It happens all the time where I work, if someone is ill, medically recovered yet doesn't feel up to returning to work. I've done it myself. Or already has annual leave planned but falls sick before it.

    There is no harm in at least approaching it this way with the employer.


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    #25
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,570 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    AulWan wrote: »
    Which is why I said apply. Jesus, why is everyone on this site so rude?

    It happens all the time where I work, if someone is ill, medically recovered yet doesn't feel up to returning to work. I've done it myself. Or already has annual leave planned but falls sick before it.

    There is no harm in at least approaching it this way with the employer.

    Did you read the op?

    The ops wife was told they do not allow AL immediately after SL.


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    #26
    sunshine2018
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭sunshine2018


    From what I have read she is fit for work (gp has not issued a current sick cert). She needs tests but doesn’t want to go for fear of Covid. That’s not the same as not being fit for work. Why can’t she go to work now then either wait till she feels hospital is safer or go back to work and go for tests next week or week after.
    Usually tests don’t take more than a day so I can’t see the issue here at all.


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    #27
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Did you read the op?

    The ops wife was told they do not allow AL immediately after SL.

    Yes I read it. And I made a suggestion.

    Either the OP or her employer may not be aware that its possible to get a Fitness for Work Certificate, as I did not see anyone else mention them.

    The OP asked for advice or experiences.

    So butt out.


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    #28
    kozak
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭kozak


    AulWan wrote: »
    If she is still unfit for work, contact her GP and ask for another cert. If she is recovered enough to return to work (pending tests), ask GP for a "Fit for Work" certificate (opposite of Unfit for Work) and then apply to go straight onto Annual Leave from Sick Leave.

    That is allowed where I work.

    Thanks a lot! Good practical advise worth following!


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    #29
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,570 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    kozak wrote: »
    Thanks a lot! Good practical advise worth following!

    I think you finally got the advice you wanted to hear rather than practical advice. The employer has said they will not grant AL immediately after SL. This is not dependent on a fitness to work cert, if it was, they would just have asked you for it. If you get that particular cert, they could just say “great, see you tomorrow, but no AL”, what will she do then?


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    #30
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I think you finally got the advice you wanted to hear rather than practical advice. The employer has said they will not grant AL immediately after SL. This is not dependent on a fitness to work cert, if it was, they would just have asked you for it. If you get that particular cert, they could just say “great, see you tomorrow, but no AL”, what will she do then?

    Yeah, I'm thinking the exact same thing?? Surely a Fitness to Work cert means you're fit to work?


    Applying for Annual Leave straight after handing in a cert saying you're "fit to work" , especially after being off work for 6 weeks sick does not mean you will get Annual Leave.

    If this employer is still open it must mean it is "essential services". All the more reason Annual Leave would NOT be granted at this time. Maybe the staff who have been working for the past 6 weeks would be looking for some time off now that their colleague has returned "fit to work"?


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