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Farage highlighting illegal migration chaos
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Tell me how wrote: »This is using the same tactic as Kidchameleon was at earlier. Trying to ask one question and then argue that the answer is wrong for a different question.
I was asked to give an example of where he suggested some groups were inherently troublesome. I showed how he indicated that Muslim groups are possessed by a value which is troublesome and now you are saying that that doesn't prove he is xenophobic.
It's not a "tactic". Islam is a religion, an ideology. Saying people that hold a certain ideology is xenophobic is plainly ridiculous. Is saying White Nationalists are troublesome xenophobic too? From your own link:they might share some of the same beliefs and goals as the extremists.
“One of the key things about this is to fall into the Muslim Brotherhood line. We have our own society, Muslim’s are a part of it, people of all faiths are a part of it.
“But we must not fall into this what I call a bad cop, worse cop routine, where the people who would use violence are mitigated by people who say ‘we wouldn’t use violence, but we do agree with some of those aims like the creation of a caliphate.”
As you can see, he's talking of Islam as an ideology. Nothing to do with race, ethnicity or people as such. A la, this is not an example of xenophobia.Tell me how wrote: »I don't care about 'winning' any debate, least not with people who have proven time and again that they are not for changing.
I see the influence that some people such as Farage, Murray and others have on the world and I think it is of a more negative nature than positive and we have seen how that is not for the good of society in broad terms.
And why should I sit back and let them, or posters on boards express their opinion without countering it where I disagree with it?
You are making spurious claims of racism and xenophobia. Whether the influence of the two individuals is good or bad is neither here nor there, when you make such outrageous claims and cannot back them up.0 -
suicide_circus wrote: »countries need borders.
borders need to be guarded.
these truths are self evident.
Have you ever seen the Eu border with Africa at Melilla?
Lines of razor wire, high fences, walls, cameras, armed guards.
Makes Trump's border wall plans look amateur.
Migrants camp on the African side and when their numbers become great enough they attack the border en mass.
Yet it's never mentioned for some reason. Funny0 -
Luckily, countries are way, way ahead of you here and have had those in place for decades if not centuries.suicide_circus wrote: »countries need borders.
borders need to be guarded.
these truths are self evident.0 -
CtevenSrowder wrote: »As you can see, he's talking of Islam as an ideology. Nothing to do with race, ethnicity or people as such. A la, this is not an example of xenophobia.
As I already pointed out, I posted that example as where he implied there were inherent issues within a group. I did not say that here is where I think he is xenophobic. I formed that opinion from a combined experience of listening to him at various points and reading more stuff from him and about him.CtevenSrowder wrote: »You are making spurious claims of racism and xenophobia. Whether the influence of the two individuals is good or bad is neither here nor there, when you make such outrageous claims and cannot back them up.
Let me repeat that the actions of the people being discussed here has led me to form opinions about them. I am not the only one, as you know, who view them in this way.
I don't care whether that is enough for you or not, you have formed an opinion about me, as you expressed, in the same way.0 -
Tell me how wrote: »As I already pointed out, I posted that example as where he implied there were inherent issues within a group. I did not say that here is where I think he is xenophobic. I formed that opinion from a combined experience of listening to him at various points and reading more stuff from him and about him.
Let me repeat that the actions of the people being discussed here has led me to form opinions about them. I am not the only one, as you know, who view them in this way.
I don't care whether that is enough for you or not, you have formed an opinion about me, as you expressed, in the same way.
So no, no evidence. I've listened and read plenty of DM and nothing he says is racist and/or xenophobic. He, like many others, is critical of Islam, which is an ideology. You cannot be racist or xenophobic about an ideology. The ones who view these people as xenophobes and racists and throw out the words willi-nilly nearly always have the same political slant. It is nothing more than a political slur used by said people to portray their political opponents in a bad light. Nothing more and nothing less. It's McCarthy-esque. It's cheap and lessens the impacts of the words, which should be reserved for actual racists and xenophobes.0 -
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CtevenSrowder wrote: »So no, no evidence. I've listened and read plenty of DM and nothing he says is racist and/or xenophobic. He, like many others, is critical of Islam, which is an ideology. You cannot be racist or xenophobic about an ideology. The ones who view these people as xenophobes and racists and throw out the words willi-nilly nearly always have the same political slant. It is nothing more than a political slur used by said people to portray their political opponents in a bad light. Nothing more and nothing less. It's McCarthy-esque. It's cheap and lessens the impacts of the words, which should be reserved for actual racists and xenophobes.
you can absolutely be so about those who subscribe to the ideology by attacking that ideology as a way to push an agenda against said individuals however.
there is criticising elements of a religion and then there is taking specific bits of the religion, and taking specific passages from the religion's holy book and deliberately misquoting/interpreting them so as to attack the members of that religion.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »do they need to be specifically fleeing france?
There are literally billions of people who would enter and live in Europe if they had the opportunity. This idea of spreading refugees is delusional, the numbers are unending, growing year on year.
In a single decade the population of Nigeria has grown by more than the total population of any European country. These people will not want to stay there if they can avoid it.
Our refugee laws, predicated upon WW2 notions of conflict and desperation, will be our undoing as a continent.
Farage traveling to Dover to report on the UK authorities lax attitude to illegals is small fry in comparison.0 -
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There are literally billions of people who would enter and live in Europe if they had the opportunity. This idea of spreading refugees is delusional, the numbers are unending, growing year on year.
In a single decade the population of Nigeria has grown by more than the total population of any European country. These people will not want to stay there if they can avoid it.
Our refugee laws, predicated upon WW2 notions of conflict and desperation, will be our undoing as a continent.
Farage traveling to Dover to report on the UK authorities lax attitude to illegals is small fry in comparison.
i would suggest that it's actually not small fry given the influence he has over a number of the population, all be it a number that thankfully hasn't amounted to being enough to vote him in as an MP, but still enough to cause serious problems currently if they were to start following his lead and going out.
his trip was non-essential, it was just him looking for more attention and he should have done the decent thing for once and stayed at home.
the refugee laws are fine, and 99% of countries enforce their borders and that's fine also.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Join Date:Posts: 71564
Discuss the topic, not other posters
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Not discussing mod decisions but surely posters lies should be highlighted? How can you be expected to debate honestly with someone who has told blatant lies? How can you expect to believe anything they say?0
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munstermagic11 wrote: »Hyperbole alert.
Yes, and no. It is a factor. Increased migration means greater demands on the infrastructure and resources within Europe... and over extended periods (decade periods) the rate of migration has increased significantly. The problem being that a large percentage of that migration relates to unskilled workers who need to be trained up (and/or learn the language) to become capable of working in a first world nation. Estimates in many European countries show that a significant portion of migrants, fail or have no interest in developing the necessary skills (or the national language) within 3-5 years of arriving. Their children do, but the adults, not so much.
Migration alone won't tear down Europe, but it's an important factor. There is little emphasis on the integration of those migrating into Europe, which means the creation of pockets of foreign culture, ideals, values, and agendas within our borders. A good example of this is the practice of FGM which has been rising even though most Europeans would consider it to be a barbaric practice. As the other poster mentioned, the birth rate in poor or underdeveloped nations is rising dramatically, and they will be wanting to migrate to Europe for economic reasons.
Wanting to limit migration isn't automatically the case of being xenophobic. A person can be wary of increased migration without being racist. Having a concern that large numbers of migrants from certain nations don't have the skills/education to be employed on admittance to Europe is a valid concern. Dismissing those concerns is dangerous, as we've seen from the rise of far right groups, often made of moderates who have been pushed into the sidelines because of this shutting down of debate.0 -
Carfacemandog wrote: »Luckily, countries are way, way ahead of you here and have had those in place for decades if not centuries.
they are, but the world is ever evolving, peoples abilities to travel long distances, peoples belief systems and the supports available in some countries are ever changing. Preventing people from some African and Middle East nations accessing the EU would not be a big deal in the 70s , today its priority 1 for immigration authorities.
As wealth divides , welfare states and radicalisation of the islamic religion increases, borders become infinitely more important and need constant fortification0 -
Just yes. The statement I quoted was complete hyperbole.Deleted User wrote: »Yes, and no.
I agree.Deleted User wrote: »Wanting to limit migration isn't automatically the case of being xenophobic.
The problem is that you have a number of people who hold racist/xenophobic views who either shout quite loudly, or row in behind those with a more rational point of view on immigration for their own racist/xenophobic agenda. Voting for Brexit didn't mean you were racist/xenophobic, but all racist/xenophobic people voted for Brexit.Deleted User wrote: »Dismissing those concerns is dangerous, as we've seen from the rise of far right groups, often made of moderates who have been pushed into the sidelines because of this shutting down of debate.
As for Europe, we have a decline in our own population. Spain for example was due to see a huge decrease (~9m in next 50years if I remember correctly) due to an aging population (and their own migration). It's something replicated across a lot of Europe. Immigration is needed to prevent "our undoing as a continent". No problem with it being controlled, but when you mention immigration, some people lose their heads.0 -
munstermagic11 wrote: »Just yes. The statement I quoted was complete hyperbole.
I agree.
The problem is that you have a number of people who hold racist/xenophobic views who either shout quite loudly, or row in behind those with a more rational point of view on immigration for their own racist/xenophobic agenda. Voting for Brexit didn't mean you were racist/xenophobic, but all racist/xenophobic people voted for Brexit.
As for Europe, we have a decline in our own population. Spain for example was due to see a huge decrease (~9m in next 50years if I remember correctly) due to an aging population (and their own migration). It's something replicated across a lot of Europe. Immigration is needed to prevent "our undoing as a continent". No problem with it being controlled, but when you mention immigration, some people lose their heads.
or an increase in our birth rate could also solve the issue, but to stay on topic, immigration could very well be the saviour, but why do governments seem to think that means immigration from some of the least educated, most culturally incompatible in the world.
If it was all polish and Latvians I don't think farage's points on immigration would hit home, but its not those that him or the wider group of his supporters are concerned about.0 -
And some other people lose their head when you mention immigration control. But somehow it's more acceptable to be on this side than the other.but when you mention immigration, some people lose their heads0 -
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European citizens don't seem inclined to take on that burden.Eric Cartman wrote: »or an increase in our birth rate could also solve the issue
Well, we're not going to get sways of Western World immigrants are we? Our best and most educated weren't the typical Irish person that left for foreign lands during our time of mass immigration.Eric Cartman wrote: »but to stay on topic, immigration could very well be the saviour, but why do governments seem to think that means immigration from some of the least educated, most culturally incompatible in the world.
When it comes to Farage, he wants his version of Britain. Some of the people I've heard on his phone in show would include Polish and Latvians in that group.Eric Cartman wrote: »If it was all polish and Latvians I don't think farage's points on immigration would hit home, but its not those that him or the wider group of his supporters are concerned about.0 -
munstermagic11 wrote: »As for Europe, we have a decline in our own population. Spain for example was due to see a huge decrease (~9m in next 50years if I remember correctly) due to an aging population (and their own migration). It's something replicated across a lot of Europe. Immigration is needed to prevent "our undoing as a continent". No problem with it being controlled, but when you mention immigration, some people lose their heads.
We see a decline in population for people who stay in their own countries. This is, in large part, due to the costs involved in raising a family, which encourage people to have smaller family units. Having increased demands on welfare, or support given to migrants means that the costs borne by citizens will be higher, therefore even further encouraging a decline in population. Basically, fewer demands on a nations services, means less need for taxes/costs, which can translate into people having children earlier in life or having more children. [It's worth considering just how much a migrant (asylum, refugee or economic) costs the State versus a native person on welfare supports. Many of the articles I've seen about Direct provision, and other initiatives suggest a large cost difference)
Encouraging migration within Western countries would alleviate some of the problems of lower population growth, especially to balance the employment issues. When Ireland was crying out for skilled employees, there were few real initiatives to get Spanish people over here. Sure, there are the EU standard initiatives, but there's no particular focus to encourage internal migration.
From my own experience with foreigners coming to Ireland to work, they often end up marrying a local person. This is the same with Irish people moving to Holland or Germany. Few remain single long term, which can only increase the population rate, especially since the focus would be on Europeans staying within Europe rather than becoming expats externally.
A common reason I hear from other expats, is that they would love to live in Europe, but it simply costs too much. Financial aid to returning expats would go a long way towards encouraging growth... instead, we see initiatives to encourage migration from non-western populations.0 -
munstermagic11 wrote: »Well, we're not going to get sways of Western World immigrants are we? Our best and most educated weren't the typical Irish person that left for foreign lands during our time of mass immigration.
Ireland could. Quite easily actually. I left during the banking crash because I couldn't support myself along with my mortgage. Things have improved in Ireland considerably since then, but it costs so much to return. To set yourself up again, and the procedures/paperwork involved, is quite daunting.
There's little to no attempt to lure Irish people to return to Ireland. Or westerners, in general.0 -
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A large part is that people put off having kids to enjoy their 20's/30's. Costs are a factor no doubt, but from my experience, it's cheaper as you have kids as you reuse items from the first child (or from friends/family). Quite a number of my wife's friends are just having their first child at 39/40 years old. They'll be lucky to have a second.Deleted User wrote: »We see a decline in population for people who stay in their own countries. This is, in large part, due to the costs involved in raising a family, which encourage people to have smaller family units.
Well, many migrants work here as well, so contribute towards welfare. In terms of migrant costs, and I'd like to see the exact figures, it's doubtful that it's a major factor for the overall cost to the country/citizens to impact their decision making on having more kids (in the overall scheme of things). I mean, is anyone really thinking they'd have more kids but for the cost of migrants?Deleted User wrote: »Having increased demands on welfare, or support given to migrants means that the costs borne by citizens will be higher, therefore even further encouraging a decline in population.
But this would contradict your earlier point. If increased demands on welfare/migrants borne by citizens will be higher, resulting in a decline in population; then the increased costs of to pay people to come home would do similarly?Deleted User wrote: »A common reason I hear from other expats, is that they would love to live in Europe, but it simply costs too much. Financial aid to returning expats would go a long way towards encouraging growth... instead, we see initiatives to encourage migration from non-western populations.0 -
munstermagic11 wrote: »A large part is that people put off having kids to enjoy their 20's/30's. Costs are a factor no doubt, but from my experience, it's cheaper as you have kids as you reuse items from the first child (or from friends/family). Quite a number of my wife's friends are just having their first child at 39/40 years old. They'll be lucky to have a second.
And why did they wait until 39/40 to have their first child?Well, many migrants work here as well, so contribute towards welfare. In terms of migrant costs, and I'd like to see the exact figures, it's doubtful that it's a major factor for the overall cost to the country/citizens to impact their decision making on having more kids (in the overall scheme of things). I mean, is anyone really thinking they'd have more kids but for the cost of migrants?
Legal skilled migrants contribute. Low or poorly skilled migrants have a large gap in the time between arriving and being able to work (assuming that they've managed to upskill relatively quickly).
No, I didn't say that people weren't having kids because of the costs of migrants. I said the costs to the state drives up the costs to the taxpayer and reduce the services/supports available to the general population. Which in turn would increase the general costs facing someone who is trying to decide if they can afford to start/maintain a family.But this would contradict your earlier point. If increased demands on welfare/migrants borne by citizens will be higher, resulting in a decline in population; then the increased costs of to pay people to come home would do similarly?
I don't see a contradiction. Returning Europeans would likely have the educational background, and skills to obtain work easily enough... especially if there is a greater initiative to spread Europeans throughout Europe for employment. There wouldn't be a lag period between arriving and being able to work.. whereas a large part of non-western migration into Europe does have such a lag period.0 -
Costs unfortunately, on both sides. I'm imagine it's a major under taking to return home, I have a friend in California who has the same desire and faces the same issues. Things have improved in Ireland, but we're still kinda broke with debt, and COVID19 is gonna rock pretty much every country.Deleted User wrote: »Ireland could. Quite easily actually. I left during the banking crash because I couldn't support myself along with my mortgage. Things have improved in Ireland considerably since then, but it costs so much to return. To set yourself up again, and the procedures/paperwork involved, is quite daunting.
There's little to no attempt to lure Irish people to return to Ireland. Or westerners, in general.
Hope things can improve and you do get to return home.0 -
Enjoying their 20's/30's. It's the common thing now across Western countries.Deleted User wrote: »And why did they wait until 39/40 to have their first child?
That's kinda saying the cost of migrants plays a part. Again, I don't have the figures (maybe you do), but what do they cost in the overall scheme of things?Deleted User wrote: »No, I didn't say that people weren't having kids because of the costs of migrants. I said the costs to the state drives up the costs to the taxpayer and reduce the services/supports available to the general population.
Which in turn would increase the general costs facing someone who is trying to decide if they can afford to start/maintain a family.
Returning Europeans also cost more, esp if countries had to incentivise them, adding costs to the state drives up the costs to the taxpayer ........Deleted User wrote: »I don't see a contradiction. Returning Europeans would likely have the educational background, and skills to obtain work easily enough... especially if there is a greater initiative to spread Europeans throughout Europe for employment. There wouldn't be a lag period between arriving and being able to work.. whereas a large part of non-western migration into Europe does have such a lag period.
If it means helping Irish people return, then I'm not against it (or paying extra for it). I'm for aiding getting people into the country to work and benefit the state.0 -
munstermagic11 wrote: »Well, many migrants work here as well, so contribute towards welfare.
Yes, the legal migrants that came to work, work.
Low skilled migrants that work minimum wage jobs don't contribute, they are a net cost for the state, especially if they have children.
Illegal migrants don't contribute even if they work, it's either off the books jobs, or low paid jobs as above.
So, yes, maybe migrants will help improve the population decline, but that won't solve any problem, while creating more. Welfare systems need a population growth, but not just in numbers.0 -
munstermagic11 wrote: »Enjoying their 20's/30's. It's the common thing now across Western countries.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. The people I do know who are still in Ireland/Europe are still fairly family orientated.. wanting to have kids before 30, so as to cut down on the risks for the children. Admiteddly, I don't know that many people here anymore.That's kinda saying the cost of migrants plays a part. Again, I don't have the figures (maybe you do), but what do they cost in the overall scheme of things?
I am saying it plays a part, but not on the individuals choices... it plays a part on the costs for the nation. As for the figures, I'm just thinking of the costs involved with direct provision as a guide, and the delay during which migrants are unable to work.. they need to be supported during that period. I'm also thinking of the failures in Germany about educating migrants in learning skills and the German language, which suggests that they're not being particularly productive until they do upskill, which results in other drains on the economy.
I don't have time to search for figures right now. I've got class soon.Returning Europeans also cost more, esp if countries had to incentivise them, adding costs to the state drives up the costs to the taxpayer ........
If it means helping Irish people return, then I'm not against it (or paying extra for it). I'm for aiding getting people into the country to work and benefit the state.
Fair enough... although I would prefer Europeans returning to Europe, than someone from the middle east/Africa who barely speaks English and doesn't have useful skills for employment.0 -
Why are you so worried about these low skill migrants? Are they all on minimum wage? If their minimum wage jobs don't contribute, then is that true for all people on minimum wage jobs? Including their kids? No chance they can up-skill, put their kids through school for higher skilled jobs?Yes, the legal migrants that came to work, work.
Low skilled migrants that work minimum wage jobs don't contribute, they are a net cost for the state, especially if they have children.
Illegal migrants don't contribute even if they work, it's either off the books jobs, or low paid jobs as above.
So, yes, maybe migrants will help improve the population decline, but that won't solve any problem, while creating more. Welfare systems need a population growth, but not just in numbers.
I would say that low paid workers do contribute to society. Many work hard, but get low pay. Doesn't invalidate their work/contribution.
Spoofers, system abusers, chancers, etc.... I'm no time for. Don't care if they are from here or not. They're the drain on society. If they are people you are referencing, then I'm all for sorting them out.0 -
I read a number of research documents on this. Didn't do the research myself, but it's a common theme in Western countries.Deleted User wrote: »I wouldn't be so sure of that. The people I do know who are still in Ireland/Europe are still fairly family orientated.. wanting to have kids before 30, so as to cut down on the risks for the children. Admiteddly, I don't know that many people here anymore.
Not saying there isn't a cost, but moreso that in the overall scheme of things, we have far greater expenses. Whatever cost it is, is dwarfed in comparison to people just making a conscious decision to delay having kids until far later in life than previously.Deleted User wrote: »I am saying it plays a part, but not on the individuals choices... it plays a part on the costs for the nation. As for the figures, I'm just thinking of the costs involved with direct provision as a guide, and the delay during which migrants are unable to work.. they need to be supported during that period. I'm also thinking of the failures in Germany about educating migrants in learning skills and the German language, which suggests that they're not being particularly productive until they do upskill, which results in other drains on the economy.
I don't have time to search for figures right now. I've got class soon.
Ideally, we'd have people that integrated easily. But cost is a factor for employers as well, that and examples of people not wanting to do the work (i.e. Romanians flown into the UK to pick fruit). I'm sure people would have done it for the right pay/circumstances, but it adds over head that may result in a price people won't pay. Not a simple issue of course.Deleted User wrote: »Fair enough... although I would prefer Europeans returning to Europe, than someone from the middle east/Africa who barely speaks English and doesn't have useful skills for employment.
Good luck with the class.0 -
munstermagic11 wrote: »Why are you so worried about these low skill migrants? Are they all on minimum wage? If their minimum wage jobs don't contribute, then is that true for all people on minimum wage jobs? Including their kids? No chance they can up-skill, put their kids through school for higher skilled jobs?
I would say that low paid workers do contribute to society. Many work hard, but get low pay. Doesn't invalidate their work/contribution.
Spoofers, system abusers, chancers, etc.... I'm no time for. Don't care if they are from here or not. They're the drain on society. If they are people you are referencing, then I'm all for sorting them out.
I'm not saying I'm worried, I'm just highlighting some facts which you don't seem to address in your reply - for example I never said anything about their contribution to society, I only said that they are a cost and not a contribution for the welfare budget. And of course the vast majority of welfare spongers will be natives, but that doesn't mean there is a need to import some more spongers.
There is a need for highly skilled immigrants, like doctors and IT workers, and a single person of this kind will contribute more than a full boat of the other kind. Is is wrong to say this? Maybe, but it's still true.0 -
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I acknowledged the cost in reply to klaz. You didn't address any questions to me to reply to.I'm not saying I'm worried, I'm just highlighting some facts which you don't seem to address in your reply
Actually you didn't say that, you just said contribution. I did interpret that you meant to the economics (which I addressed to klaz), but I also included the social side to it as they have value that doesn't need to be on a balance book.- for example I never said anything about their contribution to society, I only said that they are a cost and not a contribution for the welfare budget.
I agree.And of course the vast majority of welfare spongers will be natives, but that doesn't mean there is a need to import some more spongers.0
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