The Last Dance (Netflix)

Alf Veedersane

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

As far as I know yes I searched for a long time. 11.99 a month is a bit steep but you do get a 7 day trial and the quality of programme on it is top notch

Had hoped it might be in the dark recesses of Disney Plus but no.

Nerdlingr

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Is the only place you can see them legally ESPN+?

There are 'other places'.... (Not legally of course..or so I've heard..cough cough)

Mantis Toboggan

This having to wait until next Monday is a pain in the face. Fantastic documentary.

Mantis Toboggan

This having to wait until next Monday is a pain in the face. Fantastic documentary.

Clareman

I'm actually glad its weekly, I'd nearly go as far as to say I'd perfer to have 1 a week rather than 2, having it over next week seems like ti's just started

Alf Veedersane

Clareman wrote: »

I'm actually glad its weekly, I'd nearly go as far as to say I'd perfer to have 1 a week rather than 2, having it over next week seems like ti's just started

Yeah I hear ya. Is it really that long since we had to wait a week to see the next episode of something we liked?

I held off until 6 episodes were available before I started watching them....and the 7 and 8 were released the day I finished 6 :pac:

Bandana boy

Clareman wrote: »

I'm actually glad its weekly, I'd nearly go as far as to say I'd perfer to have 1 a week rather than 2, having it over next week seems like ti's just started

You know you can watch it any pace you like !

jimmytwotimes 2013

Really enjoying the documentary. Plenty chats with friends about his personality and how he pushed people to achieve more.

My view is, if you have a personality like his at the office, in everyday life, you're probably a dick but he was driving people on at an elite level in sports. If you didn't want to be part of it, move to another franchise. Plenty people made big money off Jordan pushing limits and driving to succeed.

Mantis Toboggan

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Really enjoying the documentary. Plenty chats with friends about his personality and how he pushed people to achieve more.

My view is, if you have a personality like his at the office, in everyday life, you're probably a dick but he was driving people on at an elite level in sports. If you didn't want to be part of it, move to another franchise. Plenty people made big money off Jordan pushing limits and driving to succeed.

Yes very much the Roy Keane of Basketball.

Hyzepher

It's finny that the actual people he was a dick to actually acknowledge that it was necessary to bring out the best in them. Jordan was unique that he understood how to get the best out of people but also how to get the best out of himself. There was no one motivating him in the same way. And that was probably a contributing factor to his retirements. If Jordan had a Jordan pushing him he'd never have retired in 94 or possibly 98 and his legacy might have been even more astonishing

Alf Veedersane

Hyzepher wrote: »

There was no one motivating him in the same way. And that was probably a contributing factor to his retirements. If Jordan had a Jordan pushing him he'd never have retired in 94 or possibly 98 and his legacy might have been even more astonishing

That is hard to know. The first retirement is more complicated. The impact of his father's death can't be underestimated.

Having to deal with so much off the court had to have added to the pressure he put on himself and won him down. There's only so much you can take before it exhausts you mentally and physically.

The first retirement helped that drive that brought him back in 1995. He started the training camp for the 1995/96 season champing at the bit and in shape to actually start the season. Hence the 72 wins in the regular season.

Second time around, Jackson was leaving and he'd said he wouldn't play for another coach. He was 35 as well. I think he still would have retired even if he'd had a clone of himself staying on.

Clareman

Bandana boy wrote: »

You know you can watch it any pace you like !

I know I know but I just can't help myself

jimmytwotimes 2013

Very strong argument the second three-peat doesn't happen without the break Jordan took, needed to recharge the batteries physically and emotionally

Clareman

In my opinion the emotional/mental pressure that he was putting on himself just couldn't continue so he had to have a break, no-one asked him to lead the team, do the endorsments, do the etc. etc. etc., he put it all on himself, that's a terrible burden that he needed to take a break from, he also seemed to always have the need to have an enemy to get himself going, that can't continue for too long until you are your own enemy.

Alf Veedersane

Some of his scores were mesmerising. He seemed to hang there long enough to play what amounted to the basketball version of a three-car trick before making the ball disappear and then reappear dropping into the basket.

Downright obscene at times.

weldoninhio

I thought it was very interesting that the baseball coach was saying that if he’d stuck at it he would have been a major league player. He’s be first in and last out. Practice, practice, practice. Unbelievable mental toughness.

Alf Veedersane

weldoninhio wrote: »

I thought it was very interesting that the baseball coach was saying that if he’d stuck at it he would have been a major league player. He’s be first in and last out. Practice, practice, practice. Unbelievable mental toughness.

The work done during the off-season when he was filming Space Jam. Not a hope of waiting until pre-season camp to get into peak condition....arrived into camp fully fit and you see what happens in 95-96 then.

Speaking of which, the calibre of player coming to train with Jordan!

Clareman

Stuff like training with college players when injured, Olympic training, Space Jam training, the guy really put in the work to make himself the best but I never got the impression that he "loved" the game at any stage, it always seems to have been the job.

Bandana boy

Hyzepher wrote: »

. Jordan was unique that he understood how to get the best out of people but also how to get the best out of himself.

I think he knew how to get the best out of himself , and assumed that was the best way to get the best out of others , but in many cases it was not , but his own talent made up for that.

Clareman

Bandana boy wrote: »

I think he knew how to get the best out of himself , and assumed that was the best way to get the best out of others , but in many cases it was not , but his own talent made up for that.

I think he's the kind of player that is so driven that he can't see any way but his way, if people aren't giving 100% all the time he sees them as a failure and has no problem calling them out on it, players like that rarely make it in management but usually drive their team on as a leader.

SEPT 23 1989

Really enjoyed this not into basketball in any way

Jordan is some man every team or business needs a man like that in it

Completely driven and unapologetic for it

Not many of them left or willing to openly admit it now

Refreshing

Not everbodys cup of tea I know

Great series

ollkiller

Clareman wrote: »

Stuff like training with college players when injured, Olympic training, Space Jam training, the guy really put in the work to make himself the best but I never got the impression that he "loved" the game at any stage, it always seems to have been the job.

Of course he loved the game. When he was playing baseball he was still going to games like any supporter.

SEPT 23 1989

He loved the game to a level most of us can't understand

He demanded perfection from his team mates

And he got it

When's the last two out?

ShamoBuc

Deleted User wrote: »

When's the last two out?

Both are out later today!!:)

Bandana boy

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Really enjoyed this not into basketball in any way

Jordan is some man every team or business needs a man like that in it

Completely driven and unapologetic for it

Not many of them left or willing to openly admit it now

Refreshing

Not everbodys cup of tea I know

Great series

If you mean every team needs the greatest player of all time , we’ll then yes but hardly feasible , if you mean his way of leadership , then no it fails more than it works .

Clareman

And that's it over

Have to say I really enjoyed that whole show, I can see how Jordan can have "what if" questions about getting the 7th, but surely having that makes it even better, better to have htem bow out as champions than peter out.

mewso

Great show. Having not really followed the NBA over the years it's fascinating to read that

the bulls have not won since. Also Phil Jackson won 5 more NBA titles with the Lakers and Steve Kerr is a very impressive guy. Nothing but respect for him after that final couple of episodes. He won 2 more titles as a player with the Suns not to mention also going on to coach the Golden State Warriors to the last 5 NBA finals winning 3

. Spoilered just in case anyone doesn't want to know what has happened to some of the guys in the documentary since '98.

Clareman

I had to look up Steve Kerr there to see what he's at, he looks small on the show, according to Wiki he's 6"3, that's not small by any means, just shows the size of some of these guys.

gormdubhgorm

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Thought I'd start a thread for one of the most popular shows on at the moment. Are you enjoying it? Anything that surprised you about the bulls team of the nineties or the nba in general? I am personally enjoying it a lot, I loved the episode on Rodman. I had heard that the late 80s early 90s Pistons team were physical but it surprised me how physical they actually were.

It is very good in fairness I am as fair as s1 e6. I remember some basketball used to be only channel four in the 90's. Brother was more into it than I was. I was a casual watcher.

I vividly remember Jordan getting a shot to win a game/championship in the last second.
No idea what game but it turns out from the netflix thing he seemed to do that a lot.

What surprised me was how driven Jordan was. He wanted to the best every-game no let up. Loved any form of competition no matter what sport or game.
Really wanted to crush any challenger or any young upstart. Wanted the MVP every year. That was the constant in every episode I saw so far.

I don't know how he did it so consistently with all that with media attention on him non-stop.

Alf Veedersane

Bandana boy wrote: »

If you mean every team needs the greatest player of all time , we’ll then yes but hardly feasible , if you mean his way of leadership , then no it fails more than it works .

Was listening to a podcast at the weekend and they were discussing if he was a good teammate and there was a quote: "Michael Jordan without the rings is Jimmy Butler". :pac:

earlytobed

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Yes very much the Roy Keane of Basketball.

Good shout!
Also very similar to Cristiano Ronaldo in that he wanted to be the best at all times, MVP etc and used and perceived slight to improve his performance to an even higher level.

Maybe he'd have found another 1% if he stopped puffing cigars

Muahahaha

Just up to E3 and its a good watch. Im not a basketball fan as I find it too up and down and very easy to score but it is amazing watching the athleticism of some of the scores by Jordan, especially when he is knocked off balance mid air and then still somehow manages to get it in off the glass.

With Pippen I felt sorry for him being no.2 MVP but getting paid 127th best salary in the NBA. Him or his agent really cocked up there. Thought the owner was a bit of a bollox not putting the situation at least someway right, I know a contract is a contract and all that but humans are humans and if someone is vastly underpaid they're naturally going to be vastly under-motivated. Surprised that Jordan himself didnt intervene and try to put it right given Scotties importance to his own game.

Scottie was wrong for what he did with the surgery but at that stage he was beyond caring. I doubt you'd get away with pulling that kind of stunt these days, would imagine modern contracts state that you'll go under the knife whenever the team doctor says you will.

gormdubhgorm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Yes very much the Roy Keane of Basketball.

earlytobed wrote: »

Good shout!
Also very similar to Cristiano Ronaldo in that he wanted to be the best at all times, MVP etc and used and perceived slight to improve his performance to an even higher level.

Maybe he'd have found another 1% if he stopped puffing cigars

The cigars were gas alright. I did think he was like Roy Keane at one stage. But Jordan is on another level. Did not go easy in training, no such thing as a friendly game.
And we all know from Siapan that Roy Keane did not play in frendlies.

Nerdlingr

Carmen Electra still holding up well too. Nice to see! :-p

Alf Veedersane

Just watched episode 9. Had already liked Steve Kerr but great to see the back story. He makes himself out to be a limited player that worked hard. Looking at his career numbers, it's clear he underplays how good he was.

Another thing that you see across the episodes was Jordan publically talking about the team, about a unit. Giving other guys the credit. Again, maybe it was presented like that and I don't think I ever saw much of the off-court stuff at the time but it does stick out.

Zero-Cool

Just finished 10, and as Jordan was my teenhood hero, that was just a magical watch. Lost for words....

I don't fully understand why the team fall apart. Why did Jerry Kraus want Jackson gone. Why didn't Jackson want another year when it was offered. Why did they trade away all the players.

jimmytwotimes 2013

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't fully understand why the team fall apart. Why did Jerry Kraus want Jackson gone. Why didn't Jackson want another year when it was offered. Why did they trade away all the players.

Bit like why fergie got rid of lads before they went over the hill? Fellas are worthless if you let it go too long

jimmytwotimes 2013

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Bit like why fergie got rid of lads before they went over the hill? Fellas are worthless if you let it go too long

But they'd just one three in a row. I don't know enough football to get the fergie reference.

Nerdlingr

The only bit I felt the docu was missing was right at the very end where they listed what happened to Phil Jackson and the players after that season. Released, traded, retired etc....
They could have elaborated more on the likes of Jackson and Kerr who went on to have even success in their respective coaching careers...a line or two on each would have been nice or even mention how the bulls have never won a championship since!

someyoke

#spoileralert-Last 2 episodes were magic. Karl Malone, Reggie miller, the Steve Kerr back story, Rodman and WWE, the 'flu game' and pizzagate, picture perfect finish for championship number 6. Even the final team meeting was unique. Wow, haven't seen too many sports docs better than that and I've seen a lot.

BelovedAunt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't fully understand why the team fall apart. Why did Jerry Kraus want Jackson gone. Why didn't Jackson want another year when it was offered. Why did they trade away all the players.

He didn’t think they would be worth the contract they would demand and it would be better to trade them for younger players and rebuild.

ShamoBuc

Fantastic last 2 episodes. I remember watching that WWE at the time thinking wtf???

Thoroughly enjoyable !!

Arghus

My interest in basketball would be fairly limited, but this was a very entertaining watch.

Some amount of amazing editing - the two different timelines, lots of people's backstories and all edited together seamlessly to be a constantly absorbing whole.

Lots of dynamite footage. I found myself rewinding several times each episode to fully catch what I'd just seen. Like I said, no major fan of basketball, but so much of what was on display were clearly near superhuman feats of greatness.

My favourite moment was the buzzer beater shot against Cleveland in '89 - the one where he goes absolutely nuts after scoring - how he delayed that split second long enough to give himself that extra space over the leaping Cleveland player while he was already in mid-air himself... pretty cool. Add to that the pressure of the situation.

If I had any criticism it'd be maybe that the show didn't really focus on the significance of Jordan as a cultural figure in America and in the world during the 90's. It did a bit, but I thought it could have been a deeper experience if perhaps they had looked at Jordan's impact in terms of discussions about race and class in America, as well as the sporting success.

But, it's definitely up there in terms of one of the most entertaining and fascinating documentary series of all time. It was a glimpse of what it takes to win at the highest level and for the longest time. During episode one and two when we saw Jordan shtting on people it was easy to think he was an asshole. To be honest, by the end, I really liked the guy. He was just absolutely driven to win and would let nothing stop in his way - and he didn't apologise for it or attempt to hide it. That's fair enough really. Obviously, his ego is still enormous, but, fck it, he was the greatest of all time.

razorblunt

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Just watched episode 9. Had already liked Steve Kerr but great to see the back story. He makes himself out to be a limited player that worked hard. Looking at his career numbers, it's clear he underplays how good he was.

Another thing that you see across the episodes was Jordan publically talking about the team, about a unit. Giving other guys the credit. Again, maybe it was presented like that and I don't think I ever saw much of the off-court stuff at the time but it does stick out.

Kerr seems very humble and modest but I don't doubt for a second that he knew exactly what it took to get where he wanted. The fact he recognised Paxson as the spot he needed shows how focused he was.
Reminds me a bit of Andy Robertson at Liverpool, you can have all the truly world class players but your team needs the honest joe type players too.

Karl Malone was an absolute unit.

razorblunt

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just up to E3 and its a good watch. Im not a basketball fan as I find it too up and down and very easy to score but it is amazing watching the athleticism of some of the scores by Jordan, especially when he is knocked off balance mid air and then still somehow manages to get it in off the glass.

With Pippen I felt sorry for him being no.2 MVP but getting paid 127th best salary in the NBA. Him or his agent really cocked up there. Thought the owner was a bit of a bollox not putting the situation at least someway right, I know a contract is a contract and all that but humans are humans and if someone is vastly underpaid they're naturally going to be vastly under-motivated. Surprised that Jordan himself didnt intervene and try to put it right given Scotties importance to his own game.

Scottie was wrong for what he did with the surgery but at that stage he was beyond caring. I doubt you'd get away with pulling that kind of stunt these days, would imagine modern contracts state that you'll go under the knife whenever the team doctor says you will.

Buckle up, Buckaroo! You're in for a hell of a ride on the Pippen train.
I've been a huge fan of his since NBA Jam!


Jackson is some coach too, I loved his "it's only a distraction for you guys" to the media, straight down the lens too.
One thing I think I missed, may not have been paying attention at that time but did they explain how he stayed after 93 even though Krause said he was gone?

Alf Veedersane

razorblunt wrote: »

Kerr seems very humble and modest but I don't doubt for a second that he knew exactly what it took to get where he wanted. The fact he recognised Paxson as the spot he needed shows how focused he was.
Reminds me a bit of Andy Robertson at Liverpool, you can have all the truly world class players but your team needs the honest joe type players too.

I don't doubt it. Just underplays his ability given his career. And you could see Jordan respected him because he knew he could count on him in a battle.

It was cool seeing the respect between Jordan and Miller before the game given how feisty things were on the court between them.

It's a surprise that they left out the missed free throws by Malone when they were tied 82-82 especially with the story that Pippen allegedly said to him when he was at the free throw line "The Mailman doesn't deliver on Sundays"

Nerdlingr

Just on Karl Malone, great to see him come onto the bus after the game and congratulate the team and Jordan in particular. A touch of class.. in absolute contrast to the pistons walking off with time still on the clock. Also, always sad to see him and Stockton, (one of the greatest point guards of all time) they never won a ring.

Furryglove

Comparing Roy Keane to MJ is insulting, the man had the best skills in the world and was operating way before Keane, also he didn’t go out to injure people, Keane wouldn’t last in MJs world