The Last Dance (Netflix)

The real mccoy 91

Furryglove wrote: »

Comparing Roy Keane to MJ is insulting, the man had the best skills in the world and was operating way before Keane, also he didn’t go out to injure people, Keane wouldn’t last in MJs world

I didnt make it but I'd imagine the comparison was more to do with holding every person on the team to minimum standard and anything less than that wasnt good enough.

Alf Veedersane

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't fully understand why the team fall apart. Why did Jerry Kraus want Jackson gone. Why didn't Jackson want another year when it was offered. Why did they trade away all the players.

Best case scenario is that Krause didn't want to damage the legacy of Jackson because they were going to offload Pippen (two surgeries in two years), Rodman was nearing the end, Longley was struggling with injuries and hadn't a long time on his contract, which would have meant Jackson having to rely on Jordan and a whole new bench. So JK thought it better to wipe the slate clean.

Jackson probably didn't want to work under Krause and who could blame him. Krause had told him he didn't care if they went 82-0, that he was gone.

Clareman

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

I didnt make it but I'd imagine the comparison was more to do with holding every person on the team to minimum standard and anything less than that wasnt good enough.

I think it's a good comparrision, they are both players who can't understand how anyone else can't give anything but 100% and dedicate themselves to the sport and don't let anything get in the way of them being the best they can be, they also don't see anything wrong with calling out their teammates for not being good enough, they are never wrong.

Clareman

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Just on Karl Malone, great to see him come onto the bus after the game and congratulate the team and Jordan in particular. A touch of class.. in absolute contrast to the pistons walking off with time still on the clock. Also, always sad to see him and Stockton, (one of the greatest point guards of all time) they never won a ring.

Walking into the bus was a class act in fairness, he didn't have to do it

Clareman

Pippen didn't come out to great from all of this, he sulked because he didn't get to take the final shot in 1 game but when he had 2 free throws to win a game he missed both

Alf Veedersane

Clareman wrote: »

Pippen didn't come out to great from all of this, he sulked because he didn't get to take the final shot in 1 game but when he had 2 free throws to win a game he missed both

He handled the situation against the Knicks poorly. Missing free throws a few years later isn't relevant. It can't make it any worse anyway.

He was wrong, he knew he was wrong and apologised to his teammates.

Bandana boy

Just finished it and while not perfect I really loved it .

Couple of points I felt where poorly addressed , I think they went a bit too hard on Jerry K , assembling those two teams was an incredible achievement in scouting and trading and I am not sure they gave him the credit for that but focused on his mistakes.

Phil was the greatest coach the game has ever seen , and they didn't really emphasis that , he won another 5 rings without MJ to go with his two as a player that is an eye watering 13 rings . He was much more than the triangle and mysticism.

MJ was a known womaniser , rumours are that he taught Tiger Woods everything he knows on that front ! Never got touched on either.

But not to seem like a moaning Nelly , its still the best thing I have watched this year , utterly enthralling and exciting to watch even when you can remember the results.

yabadabado

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Just on Karl Malone, great to see him come onto the bus after the game and congratulate the team and Jordan in particular. A touch of class.. in absolute contrast to the pistons walking off with time still on the clock. Also, always sad to see him and Stockton, (one of the greatest point guards of all time) they never won a ring.

Don't delve too deep in Malones life or you will be fairly disappointed. Far from a class act.

Alf Veedersane

Bandana boy wrote: »

Just finished it and while not perfect I really loved it .

Couple of points I felt where poorly addressed , I think they went a bit too hard on Jerry K , assembling those two teams was an incredible achievement in scouting and trading and I am not sure they gave him the credit for that but focused on his mistakes.

Phil was the greatest coach the game has ever seen , and they didn't really emphasis that , he won another 5 rings without MJ to go with his two as a player that is an eye watering 13 rings . He was much more than the triangle and mysticism.

MJ was a known womaniser , rumours are that he taught Tiger Woods everything he knows on that front ! Never got touched on either.

But not to seem like a moaning Nelly , its still the best thing I have watched this year , utterly enthralling and exciting to watch even when you can remember the results.

Agree on that. I don't think it was intended as presenting his coaching to be based entirely on the triangles but on team play and the mysticism was just a vehicle to showing how he handled Rodman in particular but that was just a microcosm of his man management skills.

But it's hard to know if someone without knowing his career would have picked up on it that way.

yabadabado

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It's a surprise that they left out the missed free throws by Malone when they were tied 82-82 especially with the story that Pippen allegedly said to him when he was at the free throw line "The Mailman doesn't deliver on Sundays"

It was strange they left it out but maybe no one was going to admit that was said?

It was a great one infairness, if true.

yabadabado

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Agree on that. I don't think it was intended as presenting his coaching to be based entirely on the triangles but on team play and the mysticism was just a vehicle to showing how he handled Rodman in particular but that was just a microcosm of his man management skills.

But it's hard to know if someone without knowing his career would have picked up on it that way.

I read his book a few years ago,Eleven Rings.Its an excellent read and well worth checking out for anyone with an itch to find out more about the man .

He seems to have great management skills and knew how to get the best of different personalities.
Instead of fining Rodman for being late for practice he would have a free throw competition and let Rodman have first pick .
Rodman was piss poor at FT but would pick Jordan everytime.Jordan was so competitive he would do his upmost to make sure Rodman won and avoided paying fines.

Brock Turnpike

Bandana boy wrote: »

Just finished it and while not perfect I really loved it .

Couple of points I felt where poorly addressed , I think they went a bit too hard on Jerry K , assembling those two teams was an incredible achievement in scouting and trading and I am not sure they gave him the credit for that but focused on his mistakes.

Phil was the greatest coach the game has ever seen , and they didn't really emphasis that , he won another 5 rings without MJ to go with his two as a player that is an eye watering 13 rings . He was much more than the triangle and mysticism.

MJ was a known womaniser , rumours are that he taught Tiger Woods everything he knows on that front ! Never got touched on either.

But not to seem like a moaning Nelly , its still the best thing I have watched this year , utterly enthralling and exciting to watch even when you can remember the results.

Good points

The thing I would say about Jerry K, and this is more a problem I have with American sports and how so much of the focus is on owners*, is that he was desperate for credit/limelight from the media and fans. So I found it hard to have any sympathy for him. But without doubt he assembled a brilliant team.

*I'm aware Jerry wasn't the owner.

Alf Veedersane

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Good points

The thing I would say about Jerry K, and this is more a problem I have with American sports and how so much of the focus is on owners*, is that he was desperate for credit/limelight from the media and fans. So I found it hard to have any sympathy for him. But without doubt he assembled a brilliant team.

*I'm aware Jerry wasn't the owner.

The owner was/is Jerry :pac:

Brock Turnpike

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The owner was/is Jerry :pac:

No. There's two. Jerry K who was the GM. Jerry R who was the owner.

don corleone

Just finished the full documentary.

Like has been said already, it is an incredibly enjoyable watch. I had a few issues with it though.

When I heard this was coming out i was living for it. Not because I wanted to hear the Jordan story again but because I thought we would finally get deeper into a lot of aspects of his story and really get a new insight into them. We didnt really. I could not believe they got Isiah Thomas in front of a camera and basically just had a bit of craic with him on his rivalry with Jordan instead of pushing it further. The gambling was touched on but who cares about that really unless they are going to show it in its full extent. Jordan is in full control of this documentary. It is basically a tribute to him and I have no issues with that, its just not fully what I thought it would be, there is nothing really new here I felt going into the final 2 episodes.

However........there is one very significant reveal at the end, at least to me it is very significant.

SPOILER

Jordan said he wanted to play on and go for a 7th ring with the Bulls. To my knowledge he has never said that before. I could write an essay on why this is significant to the Jordan story but the long story short is that this Bulls team was dissolved by an executive (Reinsdorf) against the wishes of a once in a lifetime player, coach and team.

yabadabado

Jordan saying he would have played on but Jackson wouldn't stay on.Jackson said 7 years is the max of a manager as players just lose interest in you and at that stage he had done 9.Then you have i think something like 8 of the main players 30 or over at the end of season.

It was going to be a major ask to go on and win another one.They would have needed a huge summer of trades to get another run at a championship. Not saying it wouldn't have happened but there was a lot of things going against it.
They would have had to at least quadruple Pippens wage,then give 4 or 5 over 30 players new good deals.Salary cap may have been an issue as well?

Nerdlingr

yabadabado wrote: »

Don't delve too deep in Malones life or you will be fairly disappointed. Far from a class act.

Yeah I know about the under-age stuff, but just the image of him after losing the championship (two years in a row to the bulls) to be that gracious in defeat was great to see from a sportsmanship point of view. As I said, complete opposite to the pistons.

Just on the Krause thing as well, it was nice to hear Pippin call him the greatest GM - after all the sh*t they gave him over the years - that he did a great job assembling that team & coach. Handling the break up was so poor but getting all the pieces together in the first place was genius.

Alf Veedersane

As it transpired, with the lockout meaning the shortened season, Jordan would have missed most of the 98/99 (well, ultimately started and ended in 99) season given that he cut a tendon in his finger with a cigar cutter.

GreeBo

I came to this late and found it very hard to binge watch, each episode jumps all over the place chronologically, if you dont know the background well (I dont) its very confusing to watch.

Maybe watching them as they came out made them more well rounded, standalone episodes?

weldoninhio

earlytobed wrote: »

Good shout!
Also very similar to Cristiano Ronaldo in that he wanted to be the best at all times, MVP etc and used and perceived slight to improve his performance to an even higher level.

Maybe he'd have found another 1% if he stopped puffing cigars

CR is all about CR being the best. MJ was all about his team being the best.

Clareman

I thought Phil came across as a great manager, he seemed to deal with every situation perfectly which can't have been easy considering some of the personalities involved

Alf Veedersane

Kobe was the one player Jackson struggled with but that was Kobe being Kobe and that wasn't helped by the war of egos between him and Shaq either.

I mean his first 3 years as the Lakers coach, a three-peat.

yabadabado

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Kobe was the one player Jackson struggled with but that was Kobe being Kobe and that wasn't helped by the war of egos between him and Shaq either.

I mean his first 3 years as the Lakers coach, a three-peat.

When Jackson went to LA ,Kobe was about 20/21 iirc they did have a decent relationship as the years went on.by all accounts Kobe wasnt a particularly easy fella to get along with especially in his younger years.

Alf Veedersane

yabadabado wrote: »

When Jackson went to LA ,Kobe was about 20/21 iirc currently they did have a decent relationship as the years went on.by all accounts Kobe wasnt a particularly easy fella to get along with especially in his younger years.

Yeah I'd say he was difficult and yeah maybe it was a mix of immaturity and ego but I think Jackson wanted him gone, that's how bad it got.

Probably realised as he got older "hey, maybe this guy might help me win more rings".

GreeBo

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Yeah I'd say he was difficult and yeah maybe it was a mix of immaturity and ego but I think Jackson wanted him gone, that's how bad it got.

Probably realised as he got older "hey, maybe this guy might help me win more rings".

MJ covered that in an interview with Oprah (and Sir Charles)
He said the biggest issue he sees is that the young guys are getting crazy contracts all based on potential due to how he and his era performed.

Some people dont react well to getting the cash for nothing and some dont reach the levels exactly because of the cash (pressure).

adrian522

Blowing up the team after winning 3 in a row is pretty head scratching. They didn't need to do that. The way thinks traspired for the Bulls couldn't have gone much worse if they had tried to keep the team together.

Even bringing back Jordan, Pippen, Kerr and Rodman would have been enough to have them as one of the top teams in the league, instead they were one of the worst for years to come.

Good write up on it here, but Krause obviously didn't do much in terms of team building after Jordan left.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/5/19/21262436/after-the-last-dance-the-bulls-became-a-historic-dumpster-fire

Muahahaha

GreeBo wrote: »

I came to this late and found it very hard to binge watch, each episode jumps all over the place chronologically, if you dont know the background well (I dont) its very confusing to watch.

Maybe watching them as they came out made them more well rounded, standalone episodes?

Yeah I felt the same, Ive binged in 2 sets of four episodes and will finish it tonight. But I found the jumping timelines across episodes a bit frustrating, it kept flipping forward and backward through various seasons depending on the player they were focusing on. If you're binging that was a bit annoying, would have preferred they stuck to a strict chronology with just maybe the odd flashback.

Ive still found it a good watch. I find a few things interesting like how much access the media had to players, the constant interviews. Also how American sports put the owner of the franchise up on a pedestal, in NFL they even get presented the trophy as if they did something on the pitch. Its in stark contrast to owners of teams in Europe who are in the shadows and rarely do interviews.

ricero

Just finished it today. It really was a fantastic sports documentary. Great insight from Mj and the rest.

At first I balked at the idea of 10 episodes but they got the balance just right.

Also a fantastic soundtrack. My highlight has to be the use of this beauty for Jordon's last game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa6vvYOq-gE

Alf Veedersane

Explanation here by Krause on why Pippen, Longley, Rodman, Kerr etc left.

irishguitarlad

Finished it just now. Fantastic sports documentary, thought they could have showed more of kukoc as he put up some big numbers for the bulls. Still though, it was excellent and I would recommend it to anyone who is a fan of sport.

JoeExotic81

It was fabulous. The amount of content they had, and the quality, with fantastic candid current day insights, made for a truly fascinating show.

Anyone have any other Netflix sports docs?

Ones I'd recommend off the top of my head would be The Battered bastards of baseball, formula one race to survive, Sunderland til I die, and maradona in Mexico.

Alf Veedersane

Everytime I see Jordan in his Sunday best, I can't help but think of this:

Alf Veedersane

So yeah, Scottie Pippen's moment of madness against the Knicks in 94 was more than made up for in the finals in 98, when you could see he was clearly fúcked but ground it out.

yabadabado

JoeExotic81 wrote: »

It was fabulous. The amount of content they had, and the quality, with fantastic candid current day insights, made for a truly fascinating show.

Anyone have any other Netflix sports docs?

Ones I'd recommend off the top of my head would be The Battered bastards of baseball, formula one race to survive, Sunderland til I die, and maradona in Mexico.

ESPN really know how to do a sports doc. The 30 for 30 is brilliant and id recommend them to any sports fan.There are a few where id have zero interest in the sport its on but still always found them a good watch.

A few good basketball ones in there as well. Celtics vs Lakers is good.

Goodigal

Finished it last night. Loved it. Reggie Miller was very entertaining in episode 9. If anything, it's made me want to read more about Phil Jackson. He handled every single strong character exactly as he thought they need to be handled. Rodman going AWOL again was a great example of that.
But 10 hours of nostalgia during lockdown were much appreciated!

Alf Veedersane

One thing I'd have like answered is just how many John Stocktons there were. He was everywhere. Everywhere. Every frame of footage.

It's exactly what I remember about him (aside from being a brilliant player) but always wondered if there were a few of him on the court at the same time.

irishguitarlad

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

One thing I'd have like answered is just how many John Stocktons there were. He was everywhere. Everywhere. Every frame of footage.

It's exactly what I remember about him (aside from being a brilliant player) but always wondered if there were a few of him on the court at the same time.

Supposed to have been a seriously down to earth dude as well, used to go to games with his children in the family station wagon haha One of the best to never win a Championship?

The real mccoy 91

Theres a piece on an interview with Horace grant in the guardian

“I would say [the documentary was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it [was] BS in terms of the realness of it,” Grant said in an interview on ESPN 1000’s Kap and Co radio show on Tuesday. “It wasn’t real – because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary.”

Mentions pippin isn't happy about how he is perceived in it either.

'Lie, lie, lie': Former Jordan teammate gives withering assessment of The Last Dance

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/19/horace-grant-michael-jordan-the-last-dance-documentary-espn?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


While obviously is was made for Jordan I hadnt seen it mentioned anywhere that his production team were a part of it. Doesn't massively change my opinion it was still brilliant but I'm left feeling like theres alot more that we didnt get which is a bit annoying

irishguitarlad

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

Theres a piece on an interview with Horace grant in the guardian

“I would say [the documentary was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it [was] BS in terms of the realness of it,” Grant said in an interview on ESPN 1000’s Kap and Co radio show on Tuesday. “It wasn’t real – because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary.”

Mentions pippin isn't happy about how he is perceived in it either.

'Lie, lie, lie': Former Jordan teammate gives withering assessment of The Last Dance

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/19/horace-grant-michael-jordan-the-last-dance-documentary-espn?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


While obviously is was made for Jordan I hadnt seen it mentioned anywhere that his production team were a part of it. Doesn't massively change my opinion it was still brilliant but I'm left feeling like theres alot more that we didnt get which is a bit annoying

Yeah they also missed that when Bill cartwright came in a trade with Oakley that Jordan was pissed and said to his teammates to not pass Cartwright the ball, Cartwright addressed them all saying that if they didn't start passing him the ball they would never play basketball again, they weren't long giving him the ball haha.

Mantis Toboggan

Wouldn't mind something similar done for Rodman, looks a bizarre character.

Alf Veedersane

I would be surprised if teammates didn't shoot back sometimes. You don't push someone to provoke a reaction and not get a reaction 99% of the time. It didn't even cross my mind that no one ever told him to f**k off.

I don't really think it was unfair on Pippen either. He was selfish to get the surgery when he did but everyone could see why he did. Anyone watching understood the context. What he did in game 6 in 1998 demonstrated how important was. Does the show capture how good a player he was? No. But it was never going to be able to when the main focus was Jordan.

Brock Turnpike

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Yeah they also missed that when Bill cartwright came in a trade with Oakley that Jordan was pissed and said to his teammates to not pass Cartwright the ball, Cartwright addressed them all saying that if they didn't start passing him the ball they would never play basketball again, they weren't long giving him the ball haha.

I think the "Jordan Rules" book would be well worth a read. Here's a good article that talks about it and some of the details that the show didn't cover.

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2017/6/9/16036374/the-jordan-rules-25-year-anniversary-sam-smith-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-48b12d6d3e15?__twitter_impression=true

WARNING: Contains repeated use of the word "Woj"

ahnowbrowncow

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Really enjoyed this not into basketball in any way

Jordan is some man every team or business needs a man like that in it

Completely driven and unapologetic for it

Not many of them left or willing to openly admit it now

Refreshing

Not everbodys cup of tea I know

Great series

Steve Kerr says in the last episode that his teammates viewed MJ as a bully. It did came across that way in the documentary and this heavily favoured MJ so I'd believe what Horace Grant says about him "When if you say something about him, he's going to cut you off, he's going to try to destroy your character."

Maybe you'd want a bully as a leader in your workplace but I wouldn't and it's widely accepted that that type of leadership has far more negative than positive effects.

His talent, drive and work ethic are to be admired, just not his "leadership" style.

The documentary also does Toni Kukoc a disservice, he played a massive role in that Bulls team and was barely mentioned outside of the dream team episode, even in games were he outscored others he wasn't even shown scoring.

All said though it was a very interesting documentary.

dwayneshintzy

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Yeah they also missed that when Bill cartwright came in a trade with Oakley that Jordan was pissed and said to his teammates to not pass Cartwright the ball, Cartwright addressed them all saying that if they didn't start passing him the ball they would never play basketball again, they weren't long giving him the ball haha.

That story sounds a bit mixed up......I'd heard before that Cartwright got berated by Jordan in front of the whole locker room, and had heard of Jordan telling players not to pass him the ball, so he took Jordan aside and told him if he ever spoke to him like that again he'd never played basketball again, as he'd break both his legs. Hadn't heard of Cartwright saying anything similar to his other teammates.

Brock Turnpike

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

That story sounds a bit mixed up......I'd heard before that Cartwright got berated by Jordan in front of the whole locker room, and had heard of Jordan telling players not to pass him the ball, so he took Jordan aside and told him if he ever spoke to him like that again he'd never played basketball again, as he'd break both his legs. Hadn't heard of Cartwright saying anything similar to his other teammates.

It's covered in the piece I linked above. Have a read.

Clareman

I think if you look at it as a documentry about Jordan with a bit more on the top players with him it's more realistic than being about the Bulls, I thought it was amusing that the people holding the championshop trophies at the end were the ones most highly focused on in the doc, almost like they were the stars.

theoneeyedman

Never mind Jordan, the real star of this show was Jackson.hownhe managed and cajoled those egos to success was amazing, such a calming influence of nothing else.

Alf Veedersane

Was a little surprised there wasnt more from Ron Harper. His only piece to camera was from when he played with the Cavs against the Bulls a few years before he joined.

yabadabado

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

I think the "Jordan Rules" book would be well worth a read. Here's a good article that talks about it and some of the details that the show didn't cover.

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2017/6/9/16036374/the-jordan-rules-25-year-anniversary-sam-smith-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-48b12d6d3e15?__twitter_impression=true

WARNING: Contains repeated use of the word "Woj"

Its a good read and nowhere near as controversial as some made out.Its 10+years since I read it but I'd say most if not all of it was true.Jordan was the golden boy at the time so I suppose some backlash is expected but in highsight I dont think it was far off the mark.


Kinda unrelated but the Dream Team book is excellent.

Edit:Dream Team by Jack McCullum

irishguitarlad

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

That story sounds a bit mixed up......I'd heard before that Cartwright got berated by Jordan in front of the whole locker room, and had heard of Jordan telling players not to pass him the ball, so he took Jordan aside and told him if he ever spoke to him like that again he'd never played basketball again, as he'd break both his legs. Hadn't heard of Cartwright saying anything similar to his other teammates.

Yeah you're right, i got It arse ways.