Small Claims Court Thread

Credit Checker Moose

It is just a boilerplate defence that they will send to everyone. So they just paid once for the defence wording.

It is designed to get the soft claimants to fold. Just hang tight and request a hearing.

limabromac

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

It is just a boilerplate defence that they will send to everyone. So they just paid once for the defence wording.

It is designed to get the soft claimants to fold. Just hang tight and request a hearing.

Totally agree with this....

Flightrights are stating that a person needs to be refunded once a flight has been cancelled

EU are stating that a person needs to be refunded in 7 days

RA state that yes we are refunding ( in a year)

limabromac

ted1 wrote: »

So basically all the advice you gave people about going through the SCC just cost them 25 euro ?

That is an unfair comment. People are well able to choose what route they want to explore to receive their refund ..no one is forcing anybody to do anything...belonging to a thread like this gives people the opportunity to explore all options...

paddy19

ted1 wrote: »

So basically all the advice you gave people about going through the SCC just cost them 25 euro ?

No going to SCC with Aer Lingus gets you a refund.

Bringing Ryanair to SCC gets you an option to make them justify their illegal acts.

You have option to drop the case if you wish.

Going through any process has it's plusses and minuses.

I reckon it's good value for €25.

eltonyio

I received notice of dispute accompanied by a long letter from Ryanair yesterday, via the Registrar.

Today I emailed the Registrar to ask if I should upload the evidence and I received a reply (within a minute too!):

"That is not necessary. Please let me know whether you want to withdraw your claim or proceed to a court hearing."

I'm liking the 'not necessary' phrase, but perhaps reading too much into it. I've replied anyway saying I wish to proceed.

limabromac

eltonyio wrote: »

I received notice of dispute accompanied by a long letter from Ryanair yesterday, via the Registrar.

Today I emailed the Registrar to ask if I should upload the evidence and I received a reply (within a minute too!):

"That is not necessary. Please let me know whether you want to withdraw your claim or proceed to a court hearing."

I'm liking the 'not necessary' phrase, but perhaps reading too much into it. I've replied anyway saying I wish to proceed.

That's a great service... Hopefully you won't have to wait too long for your hearing date... And sure you have all your evidence so you just have to bring it all with ya on the day .. : )

eltonyio

I received another message telling me to bring 2 copies of documents to the court, one for judge, one for Ryanair. I don't have a date yet and also the court is closed anyway.

I would say too that there's a bit of a theme running in all these threads that legal fees for all this would be high/ nuisance etc for Ryanair. I think this theme needs to be dropped. I'm sure the legal fees are indeed high but Ryanair will definitely have retainers for legal companies, plus they'll be weighing this whole affair up as thousands spent on legal fees VS refunding millions (or even billions) on refunds, so I doubt the legal fees bother them too much, yet anyway.

willabur

just received the same legal notice from them.

Not sure it is worth going to court just to get one over them to be honest, don't feel it will be as straightforward as people have suggested it will be also.

paddy19

I agree now that Ryanair have invested in the legal template
for defending the case the incremental costs to them are not a deterrent.

Easy for me to say, but it would be great if someone went all the way with Ryanair.

What they are trying to pull here off is pretty outrageous.
They are blatantly breaking the law and using their enormous clout
to frighten off their customers looking for their money back.

Especially since Michael O'Leary is threatening EU law on other airlines for state subsidies.
He expects EU law to only apply when it suits him!

Somebody has to bell the cat!

Obviously you risk loosing, in which case Ryanair will not pay you.
So it would want to be a small amount.

The other concern is that you win and Ryanair appeal up to the high court.

The risk here is that if you loose you could be liable for legal costs.
Although it's hard to see a high court judge awarding costs to Ryanair
against lay litigant from a small claims court appeal.
But as with all things legal, never say never.

There is obviously a public interest in this case.

Again easy for me to say.

Would I can do, and I think there are quite a lot of people who would be also
prepared to contribute to a fund me campaign to see this issue trashed out in court.

Wuff Wuff

Will you be making the first contrubution to the go fund me then paddy?

paddy19

Wuff Wuff wrote: »

Will you be making the first contrubution to the go fund me then paddy?

Sure.

I said I would.

First we have to find someone interested in taking Ryanair to the District court through the small claims process.

Muahahaha

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

It is just a boilerplate defence that they will send to everyone. So they just paid once for the defence wording.

It is designed to get the soft claimants to fold. Just hang tight and request a hearing.

Nail on the head there. The law is cast iron on this and they havent got a leg to stand on. They know this but instead come up with that standard throw the kitchen sink at them response to scare people off. Its ironic that in it too they call claims for refunds as being frivolous and vexatious which is basically describing their own behaviour in not giving them out.

I would see it though, the SCC is a court specifically designed for lay litigants to get their money back from businesses that owe them under the law. Let Ryanair send down a solicitor if they want and blab on all the legalese they wish but it will be an utter waste of time for them.

jonnny68

i have instructed the SCC that id like to proceed to court, Ryanair have refused to pay out , scare tactics hoping people back down, ill take my chances,jaysus what a despicable airline they are, i never had much time for them previously but they did come on a lot in recent years but now they have shown themselves for that they are.

SweetCaliber

jonnny68 wrote: »

i have instructed the SCC that id like to proceed to court, Ryanair have refused to pay out , scare tactics hoping people back down, ill take my chances,jaysus what a despicable airline they are, i never had much time for them previously but they did come on a lot in recent years but now they have shown themselves for that they are.

Yeah, was going to take the voucher but now Im going to go the refund route and do whats necessary. I always fought in their favour but what they are doing now is disgusting.

Muahahaha

jonnny68 wrote: »

i have instructed the SCC that id like to proceed to court, Ryanair have refused to pay out , scare tactics hoping people back down, ill take my chances,jaysus what a despicable airline they are, i never had much time for them previously but they did come on a lot in recent years but now they have shown themselves for that they are.

Fair play to you seeing it through. Make sure to prepare yourself and know what law you're bring the case under. Its a court specifically designed for lay litigants so the district court registrar presiding over the case wont expect you to know legalese but you do need to be able to lay out your case. Maybe even print out a copy of that quote in the media by the Margaret Verstager last week

“If you have lost your job, if this is your entire holiday budget for travelling that sits in these tickets you cannot use any more, then you need a refund. And that is why we say this is your right, full stop,” said commissioner Margrethe Vestager.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/airlines-furious-at-eu-s-stance-that-passengers-cannot-be-forced-to-accept-vouchers-1.4252707

And from her speech

The starting point here is that EU consumers have a right to a cash refund, if that's what they want

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/SPEECH_20_879

jonnny68

would it be better if i printed off this and brought it with me

https://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Image/Regulation%20EC261%202004.pdf

paddy19

jonnny68 wrote: »

would it be better if i printed off this and brought it with me

https://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Image/Regulation%20EC261%202004.pdf

Before you go to court try to kill any doubts about the basics.
Make sure the Registrar has all of these and has passed them to Ryanair.
Invoice email from Ryanair showing flights, passengers and charges.

The big one to watch is proof that you requested a refund. This specifically called out in the regulation.
An email if you got one or a screenshot of the request or the the pop-up saying your request is already in the queue.
I'm not sure a voucher is good enough proof. Ryanair maybe offering vouchers to people who did not request a refund.

The specific amount of the refund.
The refund request is for all passengers and all flights.

Proof that flight was cancelled.
(Yes, it's ridiculous that Ryanair demand proof that they have cancelled the flight.)

I think they are ok on EU261, they are the European wide SCC for Ryanair!

Might want to make sure you have all the receipts relevant to your booking.
Passport/driving licence as proof of ID.

Proof of address, utility bill, financial institution or government letter.

Proof that you are acting for any other passengers that are part of the refund request.

atgate

So, my case against Aer Lingus was at 16 days and I just looked and the status is now "Completed" and the outcome "Case Settled by Registrar". Not really sure what this means....

Muahahaha

Sounds to me like you've won and they are not going to fight it in the SCC. The registrar is probably sending you out a letter/email confirming same but if nothing arrives in a few days just contact them for an update.

limabromac

atgate wrote: »

So, my case against Aer Lingus was at 16 days and I just looked and the status is now "Completed" and the outcome "Case Settled by Registrar". Not really sure what this means....

Fair play....it's just Ryanair that are not playing fairly then...

Credit Checker Moose

atgate wrote: »

So, my case against Aer Lingus was at 16 days and I just looked and the status is now "Completed" and the outcome "Case Settled by Registrar". Not really sure what this means....

It means that AL have agreed to refund you.

SweetCaliber

How is the money awarded to you? Does the court force then to refund your original payment method if you win or are you given a cheque?

If I'm to take this to the scc eventually the problem is my friends credit card was used on the booking but its under my name and my ryanair account, just the card is in his name.

Would that be an issue? Don't mind it going back to his card he would throw the money back to us (group of us)

ratracer

SweetCaliber wrote: »

How is the money awarded to you? Does the court force then to refund your original payment method if you win or are you given a cheque?

If I'm to take this to the scc eventually the problem is my friends credit card was used on the booking but its under my name and my ryanair account, just the card is in his name.

Would that be an issue? Don't mind it going back to his card he would throw the money back to us (group of us)

The one time I used SCC ( against a concert promoter) I received a refund by cheque in the post from them ( the promoter) . It arrived shortly after the court decision.

Muahahaha

ratracer wrote: »

The one time I used SCC ( against a concert promoter) I received a refund by cheque in the post from them ( the promoter) . It arrived shortly after the court decision.

What was the circumstances of your claim, a cancelled concert or something?

Only realised yesterday that I have tickets to see Ricky Gervais next week and obviously he has come out and postponed it. Havent heard a dickie bird from Ticketmaster even to say it is cancelled and your ticket can be reused when it is re-scheduled. My tickets are awful, the Three pre sale landed me with seats right in the very back row a mile from the stage. So Id prefer a refund and take my chances buying tickets again because the seats cant possibly get any worse than the very back row.

DeKing

jonnny68 wrote:

i have instructed the SCC that id like to proceed to court, Ryanair have refused to pay out , scare tactics hoping people back down, ill take my chances,jaysus what a despicable airline they are, i never had much time for them previously but they did come on a lot in recent years but now they have shown themselves for that they are.

Any update? I've done the same and now it's 5 working days since I've instructed SCC that I would like to proceed to court. Haven't heard anything as of yet.

paddy19

atgate wrote: »

So, my case against Aer Lingus was at 16 days and I just looked and the status is now "Completed" and the outcome "Case Settled by Registrar". Not really sure what this means....

Check the card you used for the booking.

I got nada from Aer Lingus but is showed on the card within a couple of days.

paddy19

Muahahaha wrote: »

What was the circumstances of your claim, a cancelled concert or something?

Only realised yesterday that I have tickets to see Ricky Gervais next week and obviously he has come out and postponed it. Havent heard a dickie bird from Ticketmaster even to say it is cancelled and your ticket can be reused when it is re-scheduled. My tickets are awful, the Three pre sale landed me with seats right in the very back row a mile from the stage. So Id prefer a refund and take my chances buying tickets again because the seats cant possibly get any worse than the very back row.

Before you can go to SCC you have to request a refund from the provider.

Ticketmaster have a form for you to fill for refund requests.

https://help.ticketmaster.ie/hc/en-ie/requests/new?ticket_form_id=360000117353

Under the select a topic drop down menu just Select "Refund/Exchange"

Put a note in the Question Box that you want a refund.

Seems to take 7 to 10 days.

Only issue might be that refund will have to go back on the card that it was booked on.

Hope this helps

Muahahaha

cheers paddy, will follow that. Im not in any need of the money but I might as well get it and try to get better seats when the show does go ahead next year sometime

firemansam4

paddy19 wrote: »

I agree now that Ryanair have invested in the legal template
for defending the case the incremental costs to them are not a deterrent.

Easy for me to say, but it would be great if someone went all the way with Ryanair.

What they are trying to pull here off is pretty outrageous.
They are blatantly breaking the law and using their enormous clout
to frighten off their customers looking for their money back.

Especially since Michael O'Leary is threatening EU law on other airlines for state subsidies.
He expects EU law to only apply when it suits him!

Somebody has to bell the cat!

Obviously you risk loosing, in which case Ryanair will not pay you.
So it would want to be a small amount.

The other concern is that you win and Ryanair appeal up to the high court.

The risk here is that if you loose you could be liable for legal costs.
Although it's hard to see a high court judge awarding costs to Ryanair
against lay litigant from a small claims court appeal.
But as with all things legal, never say never.

There is obviously a public interest in this case.

Again easy for me to say.

Would I can do, and I think there are quite a lot of people who would be also
prepared to contribute to a fund me campaign to see this issue trashed out in court.

If you lose the case, I would have thought it would be on the grounds that a delay in the refund is warranted due to exceptional circumstances?
Surely they would still be obligated to pay the refund at a later date?

My tickets cost over 1000 euros so I would not want to take a chance on that.

paddy19

firemansam4 wrote: »

If you lose the case, I would have thought it would be on the grounds that a delay in the refund is warranted due to exceptional circumstances?
Surely they would still be obligated to pay the refund at a later date?

My tickets cost over 1000 euros so I would not want to take a chance on that.

If you loose the case, Ryanair will not refund you.

I can't see how you could loose it, but I wouldn't bet a 1,000 Euro on it.

You can never say never with the law.

cuba1234

atgate wrote: »

So, my case against Aer Lingus was at 16 days and I just looked and the status is now "Completed" and the outcome "Case Settled by Registrar". Not really sure what this means....

We are in the same boat, 16 days in yesterday, logged on to find the same as you. Will you let us know when/if you receive an email from the Registrar or even money in the bank and I'll do the same, our case is also with Aerlingus and they didn't ask for any documentation. Fingers crossed this will be the end of this long battle to get our money back

atgate

cuba1234 wrote: »

We are in the same boat, 16 days in yesterday, logged on to find the same as you. Will you let us know when/if you receive an email from the Registrar or even money in the bank and I'll do the same, our case is also with Aerlingus and they didn't ask for any documentation. Fingers crossed this will be the end of this long battle to get our money back

Sure. Will do.

Mad Benny

paddy19 wrote: »

If you loose the case, Ryanair will not refund you.

Can you still use the voucher they offer if you lose the case?

If you win the case but Ryanair appeals to the high court what happens if you don't have the means to proceed?

Muahahaha

Mad Benny wrote: »

Can you still use the voucher they offer if you lose the case?

If you win the case but Ryanair appeals to the high court what happens if you don't have the means to proceed?

If the case is lost then would imagine you can still use the voucher, its still your money at the end of the day.

Their route to appeal would be the Circuit Court. In the event of losing that a judge could order costs against you, equally he could say that both sides pay their own costs, its an unknown.

That said the law is solid that refunds must issue plus it is EU law which supercedes anything Ryanair come up with. Would say that if anyone were to lose the SCC case it will be because they didnt lay their case out properly or were missing a document they needed to back up their claim. The registrar can only judge on what is put before them so its important to have all your ducks lined up and paperwork in order on the day. It wont be lost because the law is against you because it is unequivocal in the matter of refunds.

paddy19

Muahahaha wrote: »

If the case is lost then would imagine you can still use the voucher, its still your money at the end of the day.

The voucher is an interesting angle.

The voucher is not your money it's a new agreement
between you and the airline and subject to its own terms and conditions.

Ryanair can be vindictive.
You would have cost them a considerable amount of time and money.

The problem is they can invalidate the voucher.
How would you force them to allow you to use it?

SCC is gone.
Chargeback is doubtful, they would show the bank they won the case.
Doubtful if Flightrights can enforce a voucher. They are EU261 based.
Resolver is out.

I can't see how you can make Ryanair accept their own voucher.

So I have no confidence you could use your voucher.

paddy19

Mad Benny wrote: »

If you win the case but Ryanair appeals to the high court what happens if you don't have the means to proceed?

It's certainly a possibility that Ryanair would appeal.
They could appeal all the way to the EU courts.
From their point of view it drags out the process
and could take long enough to make the issue somewhat irrelevant.

It would however be a little incongruous to see Ryanair on the one
hand asking the EU courts to stop bailouts to European airlines
while refusing to refund passengers.

The problem is Michael O'Leary has never been bothered by incongruity!

It's a gamble but highly unlikely that a higher court judge would award
costs against a lay litigant from the SCC.
Even Michael O'Leary in his sharpest moment is not likely to demand his costs.
But never say never.

The second point is there is a strong public interest defence in this case.
Since Ryanair is registered in Ireland, the Swords District is the court for all Ryanair SCC's cases in Europe.
So you would expect that European consumer groups would help fight the case.
But again no guarantees.

Third avenue is a gofundme campaign. Obviously no idea how that would go.
There are a lot of cheesed off people who would like to see
Ryanair chastened but I'm not sure they are the kind of folk who would divvy up when money is required.

Morby

So does everyone who wishes to lodge a SCC have to travel to Swords?

I'm the other side of the country so not exactly convenient for me.

Any chance they night agree to pay out and refund without having to drag myself to attend court in Swords?

If a case goes ahead, anyone have any idea of what sort of time frame we might be looking at before it's called before the courts? Weeks? Months?

jonnny68

Morby wrote: »

So does everyone who wishes to lodge a SCC have to travel to Swords?

I'm the other side of the country so not exactly convenient for me.

Any chance they night agree to pay out and refund without having to drag myself to attend court in Swords?

If a case goes ahead, anyone have any idea of what sort of time frame we might be looking at before it's called before the courts? Weeks? Months?

interested to know this myself, im in Dublin so wouldn't be a problem for me but i hope it doesn't drag out, that was the whole point in me initiating a claim with the SCC

paddy19

Morby wrote: »

So does everyone who wishes to lodge a SCC have to travel to Swords?

I'm the other side of the country so not exactly convenient for me.

Any chance they night agree to pay out and refund without having to drag myself to attend court in Swords?

If a case goes ahead, anyone have any idea of what sort of time frame we might be looking at before it's called before the courts? Weeks? Months?

The whole idea of the SCC process is the parties come to an agreement facilitated by the Registrar.
You only need to attend court if the parties can't agree.

Aer Lingus agree and pay up.
Ryanair seem to dispute everything so you have the option of dropping the case or going to court is Swords.
You have to attend personally.
Ryanair have to be represented by a solicitor.

Time frames are unknown for the court at this stage.

Mad Benny

I received the Ryanair Notice of Dispute from the SCC today containing 9 pages of waffle.

Ryanair has repeatedly claimed that everyone who wants a refund will get it. Their refusal proves otherwise.

I informed the Registrar that I'd like to proceed with a court hearing.

ted1

Mad Benny wrote: »

Ryanair has repeatedly claimed that everyone who wants a refund will get it. Their refusal proves otherwise.
.

No it doesn’t, they have issued a statement that says if the voucher is t used within 12 months the cash will be refund, this appears to be supported by the government

paddy19

ted1 wrote: »

No it doesn’t, they have issued a statement that says if the voucher is t used within 12 months the cash will be refund, this appears to be supported by the government

Ryanair statements on cash refunds have been less than clear.

In one case they said the refund would happen automatically.
In another they state that you will be able to apply for a refund after 12 months.

In both cases it's arrogance beyond belief.

What gives Ryanair the right to refuse to give you back your own money within 7 days per EU261?

Mad Benny

paddy19 wrote: »

Time frames are unknown for the court at this stage.

I asked the registrar when the case will be heard. His response was that the court is closed and it may be the last quarter of 2020.

paddy19

Mad Benny wrote: »

I asked the registrar when the case will be heard. His response was that the court is closed and it may be the last quarter of 2020.

I always worry when predictions are in seasons

Mad Benny

ted1 wrote: »

No it doesn’t, they have issued a statement that says if the voucher is t used within 12 months the cash will be refund, this appears to be supported by the government

They informed me that "Refunds will be processed within 20 working days back to the form of payment used for the original booking".

The obviously didn't follow through or abide by European law. Ryanair's statement is not credible.

kris_2021

How long you were waiting for case to change status to 'case initiated'? i submitted my case nearly 4 weeks ago and still the same?

paddy19

kris_2021 wrote: »

How long you were waiting for case to change status to 'case initiated'? i submitted my case nearly 4 weeks ago and still the same?

Have you paid the €25?

Check on the events tab and you should see something like this.

Date Filed ........Event Description ..............Case Party Days
19 Apr 2020 Case Settled by Registrar Aer Lingus xx
14 Apr 2020 Notice of Dispute Lodged Aer Lingus xx
04 Apr 2020 Claim Issued
03 Apr 2020 Claim Approved
02 Apr 2020 Claim Submitted
01 Apr 2020 Case Preparing

kris_2021

paddy19 wrote: »

Have you paid the €25?

Check on the events tab and you should see something like this.

Date Filed ........Event Description ..............Case Party Days
19 Apr 2020 Case Settled by Registrar Aer Lingus xx
14 Apr 2020 Notice of Dispute Lodged Aer Lingus xx
04 Apr 2020 Claim Issued
03 Apr 2020 Claim Approved
02 Apr 2020 Claim Submitted
01 Apr 2020 Case Preparing

oh so I have to pay first to initiate case? Thought they will come back saying case is valid or something

paddy19

kris_2021 wrote: »

oh so I have to pay first to initiate case? Thought they will come back saying case is valid or something

You need to get to the case submitted stage.
Then you get the email from the registrar giving you the link for payment.

Submit case is after you have inputted the claimant, respondent and case details.

You might have missed it.

kris_2021

paddy19 wrote: »

You need to get to the case submitted stage.
Then you get the email from the registrar giving you the link for payment.

Submit case is after you have inputted the claimant, respondent and case details.

You might have missed it.

I have submitted but never got the link?
I have open case with flight rights now also. Is there a point pursuing court case as well?