Leaving Cert to be cancelled

lawrencesummers

BoatMad wrote: »

I must say , my wife's a secondary school teacher and she never could see how the leaving was to be carried our safely and has no issue with predictive grades, its a lot of work now for schools as they will have to collate many exam results etc

its an extraordinary time and trying to ram home an exam , just to make a point is nonsense

That’s because the outcome of this decision makes no difference to you.

If you were however the parent of a child doing the leaving, or a college administrator you should be worried because this is going to cause problems.

khalessi

Donald Trump wrote: »

No need to be so touchy.


How is it teacher bashing? Children of parents who can afford grinds do have a great advantage. Of course they do. That is a recognised fact. And it became even more distorted when free fees for everyone came in. That is generally recognised also, no?



I gave grinds myself back int the day. Junior Cert, Leaving Cert and Third Level. It was always cash in hand, but then I'd have been a student and not earning enough to pay tax anyway.

"after their regular teachers didn't' do the jobs they were paid to do and teach the little blighters...." could be considered teacher bashing or did you forget you wrote that

stephenjmcd

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Yet they are still the greatest (albeit still bad) gauge of where a student is unfortunately so they can’t be ignored.

They really aren't the greatest gauge and I know you've said albeit still bad depending on your teacher some might give students the exam before it. I was in higher level history with 1 teacher, another teacher gave the ordinary level class their history mock the week before so they could learn off the essay titles.

They dont take into account any course work either where applicable. They literally get you used to a dry run of the leaving with everyone being told to still concentrate on the main exam as you might not have the whole course even covered before the mocks. We did ours the first week back after Christmas, nowhere near finished the course of some subjects.

lawrencesummers

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Jesus you seem up for an aggressive argument tonight while I'm only trying to put ideas forward.

Put forward an idea all you want.

Just put more than a minutes thought into the practicality of it first, you will very quickly see that your idea is terrible

Donald Trump

Multipass wrote: »

Yeah he’s not a kid - how would you like to be in secondary school when you turn 20? If nothing opens up after the summer.... now that is the end of the world. The country will be utterly destroyed, you won’t need any virus to kill you by then.

Well if going forward in time is not an option, then he should go back in time and do better in his exams in the past.

Diagonalley

BoatMad wrote: »

where do all the first years go then !!

They’ve only missed 7/8 weeks of school, a bit drastic for everyone to repeat an entire year. And exactly where would the -st years go ?

Jinglejangle69

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Put forward an idea all you want.

Just put more than a minutes thought into the practicality of it first, you will very quickly see that your idea is terrible

OK no need to be so smart and smug.

Multipass

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well if going forward in time is not an option, then he should go back in time and do better in his exams in the past.

Your name suits your cognitive function perfectly

Donald Trump

khalessi wrote: »

"after their regular teachers didn't' do the jobs they were paid to do and teach the little blighters...." could be considered teacher bashing or did you forget you wrote that

Which is it?

Are the grinds teachers needed or not? If so, why are they needed if someone else has already been paid to do that job?


Most of the people I heard of who went to grinds when I was doing the leaving blamed particular bad teachers.



If the county council re-surfaces my road and when they are finished, I have to get someone else in privately to do the bit outside my house again because I can't get my car out due to the potholes, did the council workers do their job or not?

lawrencesummers

stephenjmcd wrote: »

They really aren't, depending on your teacher some might give students the exam before it. I was in higher level history with 1 teacher, another teacher gave the ordinary level class their history mock the week before so they could learn off the essay titles.

They dont take into account any course work either where applicable. They literally get you used to a dry run of the leaving with everyone being told to still concentrate on the main exam as you might not have the whole course even covered before the mocks. We did ours the first week back after Christmas, nowhere near finished the course of some subjects.

I highlighted Some of the words that show how arbitrary this is.

The prize at the end of the LC is a place on the course you want, Something that can dictate future careers and ultimately the direction of someone’s life, it’s important, very important and it’s a national competition, with independent adjudicators, checks and balances and the results are definitive. Might, depending, and maybe shouldn’t come into it or the impartiality of it goes out the window.

BoatMad

lawrencesummers wrote: »

That’s because the outcome of this decision makes no difference to you.

If you were however the parent of a child doing the leaving, or a college administrator you should be worried because this is going to cause problems.

cause problems , yes of course , insurmountable , absolutely not . Colleges can easily change systems and cope. They could even offered matriculation exams in the autumn if they have too many points close together etc

Theres loads of ways to skin this cat , then putting people safely at risk in a purely thought out exam plan , that clearly was never actually going to fly , I have heard my wife talk to her colleagues, no-one believed the exma was ever going to happen , including the principal

Donald Trump

Multipass wrote: »

Your name suits your cognitive function perfectly

Oh what's that you say ...... he can't go "back in time"........I guess he's stuck with the "forward in time" solution so!!!

BoatMad

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I highlighted Some of the words that show how arbitrary this is.

The prize at the end of the LC is a place on the course you want, Something that can dictate future careers and ultimately the direction of someone’s life, it’s important, very important and it’s a national competition, with independent adjudicators, checks and balances and the results are definitive. Might, depending, and maybe shouldn’t come into it or the impartiality of it goes out the window.

nonsense , its a one horse wonder, deciding the immediate future of a person on their performance in a once off system of exams . its like is never repeated again in their lifetime

perhaps this might be the end of the LC. good riddance

if the predicted grades gets a student in the third level course they want, the LC is a piece of toilet paper

stephenjmcd

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I highlighted Some of the words that show how arbitrary this is.

The prize at the end of the LC is a place on the course you want, Something that can dictate future careers and ultimately the direction of someone’s life, it’s important, very important and it’s a national competition, with independent adjudicators, checks and balances and the results are definitive. Might, depending, and maybe shouldn’t come into it or the impartiality of it goes out the window.

I fully agree they are important in regards to potential future careers hence the mocks are nowhere near appropriate to include as part of predictive grading because they can't be judged to be fair and balanced.

khalessi

Donald Trump wrote: »

Which is it?

Are the grinds teachers needed or not? If so, why are they needed if someone else has already been paid to do that job?


Most of the people I heard of who went to grinds when I was doing the leaving blamed particular bad teachers.



If the county council re-surfaces my road and when they are finished, I have to get someone else in privately to do the bit outside my house again because I can't get my car out due to the potholes, did the council workers do their job or not?

So when you were doing the leaving fellow students blamed the teacher and not themselves, you are using teenagers as a barometer. If you read you my post you will see some of the reasons I gave for grinds. I got grinds for the leaving because I was bad at the topic. I wasnt going to tell my friends that at time, easier to blame teacher.

Multipass

BoatMad wrote: »

cause problems , yes of course , insurmountable , absolutely not . Colleges can easily change systems and cope. They could even offered matriculation exams in the autumn if they have too many points close together etc

Theres loads of ways to skin this cat , then putting people safely at risk in a purely thought out exam plan , that clearly was never actually going to fly , I have heard my wife talk to her colleagues, no-one believed the exma was ever going to happen , including the principal

Whose safety was at risk? If these students go out and get jobs in supermarkets now are they safer?

BoatMad

Multipass wrote: »

Whose safety was at risk? If these students go out and get jobs in supermarkets now are they safer?

is not just about the students , its about the staff and the students and yes supermarket employees are not safe , but thats not a reason to hold the LC

lawrencesummers

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

OK no need to be so smart and smug.

Nothing smug about it.

It’s pretty simple to see that you can’t not have colleges take in 1st years and have no students doing courses for one year every year of the next 4.
You can’t then expect to have double the numbers doing the LC next year. The capacity to correct papers won’t exist, the hall space for exams won’t exist. The supervisors won’t be there, the colleges won’t be able to take in twice the Amount of 1st years in 2021.
The jobs market won’t react well to no graduates in 4 years.

Tomrota

Good. Predictive grades can be appealed and every student should be given the opportunity to sit the exams next year instead also. Online exams couldn’t have worked, in UCD they’re all FaceTiming each other doing the exams and getting the answers for exams. It’s not feasible. Education in its current form can’t function online.

I think I read that an average of 4000 students apply to UK colleges each year and if the LC took place in August, it would be too late for them to get into their UK courses, shifting demand here to all time high and inflating the points market. That would not have been ideal.

BoatMad

stephenjmcd wrote: »

I fully agree they are important in regards to potential future careers hence the mocks are nowhere near appropriate to include as part of predictive grading because they can't be judged to be fair and balanced.

the understanding is the school will use several exams , including JC, school exams and the mocks to build up a picture of the predicative grades, the likelihood is most peoples grades over time are fairly predictive , yes some outliers will be missed and thats where a degree of personal opinion will then play out

lawrencesummers

BoatMad wrote: »

nonsense , its a one horse wonder, deciding the immediate future of a person on their performance in a once off system of exams . its like is never repeated again in their lifetime

perhaps this might be the end of the LC. good riddance

if the predicted grades gets a student in the third level course they want, the LC is a piece of toilet paper

And the other side of the coin? What say you about that? When the predicted grade doesn’t get a student the course they want?

It wasnt me123

I'm delighted - why should 12 years of schooling come down to 2 weeks in June - very unfair for students that can't cope with exams. No other european system bases their college entrance on one exam - it takes into account the year or two years work, including ongoing exams.

If they held exams beginning of August that would have been 4 months out of the classroom - were the students expected to constantly study for the next 3 months?

Give the students their results and let them move on with their lives instead of this limbo for the next 3 months - there won't be many international students this year so there will be more room for irish based students.

BoatMad

lawrencesummers wrote: »

And the other side of the coin? What say you about that? When the predicted grade doesn’t get a student the course they want?

I understand , they will offered a way to resit a particular subject at some future time , or colleges could consider matric style exams for the few that might challenge the grades , I suspect most will take the grades and run ...

BoatMad

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I'm delighted - why should 12 years of schooling come down to 2 weeks in June - very unfair for students that can't cope with exams. No other european system bases their college entrance on one exam - it takes into account the year or two years work, including ongoing exams.

If they held exams beginning of August that would have been 4 months out of the classroom - were the students expected to constantly study for the next 3 months?

Give the students their results and let them move on with their lives instead of this limbo for the next 3 months - there won't be many international students this year so there will be more room for irish based students.

+1

Multipass

BoatMad wrote: »

is not just about the students , its about the staff and the students and yes supermarket employees are not safe , but thats not a reason to hold the LC

Staff in an at risk category could have been excused. Special accommodation could have been made for students with health conditions. There was basically no risk to anyone else. My son is going to be going out to work now instead of home studying. He’ll be less safe - but really only because it involves travel by car. Hopefully our safety conscious government will bring the speed limits down to 20km, lives could be saved.

Diagonalley

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I'm delighted - why should 12 years of schooling come down to 2 weeks in June - very unfair for students that can't cope with exams. No other european system bases their college entrance on one exam - it takes into account the year or two years work, including ongoing exams.

If they held exams beginning of August that would have been 4 months out of the classroom - were the students expected to constantly study for the next 3 months?

Give the students their results and let them move on with their lives instead of this limbo for the next 3 months - there won't be many international students this year so there will be more room for irish based students.

Well said

BoatMad

Multipass wrote: »

Staff in an at risk category could have been excused. Special accommodation could have been made for students with health conditions. There was basically no risk to anyone else. My son is going to be going out to work now instead of home studying. He’ll be less safe - but really only because it involves travel by car. Hopefully our safety conscious government will bring the speed limits down to 20km, lives could be saved.

your son is taking a personal decision , thats his civil right

its not his civil right to potentially place others in danger of inflection.

You either accept the social distancing restrictions or you ignore them, schools evaluated the issue ( I know certain teachers were in with measuring tapes etc ) and have reported that they felt it was impossible to adhere to any reasonable social distancing requirements

and what happens if in the middle of a exam a student or staff displays symptoms , shut the whole school , kill the exam mid way through

seriously you've not thinking this through

lawrencesummers

BoatMad wrote: »

I understand , they will offered a way to resit a particular subject at some future time , or colleges could consider matric style exams for the few that might challenge the grades , I suspect most will take the grades and run ...

Offered to sit a subject at a future date?
So they miss their course, lodge an appeal and are told they still can’t get their course and their appeal consists of doing an exam that isn’t compared to any of the other students with whom they are competing.

When I went to school there were over the years 20+ children of teachers that attended the school. And while I was there about 8.

How fair is it that that students future is decided by his parents friends or enemies? And how fair is it that other students can miss out on courses because of such favoritism, or student get into courses they are not able for.

BoatMad

lawrencesummers wrote: »

.....

How fair is it that that students future is decided by his parents friends or enemies? And how fair is it that other students can miss out on courses because of such favoritism, or student get into courses they are not able for.

well , they better get used to it , because in the rest of their lives, they will be graded , promoted and evaluated in a very partisan way , by their bosses ( or their customers) etc

life not fair , never was ( and neither was the LC)

lawrencesummers

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I'm delighted - why should 12 years of schooling come down to 2 weeks in June - very unfair for students that can't cope with exams. No other european system bases their college entrance on one exam - it takes into account the year or two years work, including ongoing exams.

If they held exams beginning of August that would have been 4 months out of the classroom - were the students expected to constantly study for the next 3 months?

Give the students their results and let them move on with their lives instead of this limbo for the next 3 months - there won't be many international students this year so there will be more room for irish based students.

Do you know what happens students who can’t cope with exams?

They don’t get the most in demand courses, or go to college at all, and that’s fine because the most in demand courses require a lot of study, learning and examinations.

If a student can’t do a leaving cert then medicine is not for them, or actuary, or flying space rockets, or veterinary, accountancy etc etc, but a lot of Students want to do those courses so there is a legitimate competition to decide on merit who gets them.