Leaving Cert to be cancelled

topmanamillion

Definitely the fairest outcome out of a bunch of pretty poor options.

Their last school contact was in March and they were expected to do a leaving in August. Always a pipe dream. And would've seriously disadvantaged them compared to other years.

It wouldn't have been fair on teenagers coming from abusive homes where school is an escape. Or those that don't have WiFi or the other catalogue of reasons why studying from home isn't an option for them.

I'd imagine the vast majority will roll with predicted grades. The uptake for the exam option will be fairly small.

is_that_so

Downlinz wrote: »

It seems as feared that with established school records being used to determine the range of grades a school can offer that this system will punish high performing students in public schools and reward struggling students in fee paying schools.

The process is considered as an inaccurate and classist disaster in the UK : https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/18/predicted-grades-lottery-work-against-poorest-students-get-rid-of-them

Joe Duffy will have content for months but I feel for those students who'll now have to lose a year of their life repeating to get the grade they deserve because they happened to be born into the wrong socio-economic background.

I agree. There is a huge risk in terms of validity, credibility and fairness of applying a completely untested evaluation system to such an important exam. Issues will most likely emerge at the other end with the CAO process and 3rd level places.

Downlinz

machiavellianme wrote: »

Brilliant idea. So some swot in a grind school will be marked down because their class is full of braniacs while some class clown in a run of the mill tech does better because they are surrounded by the village's prize turnips? :rolleyes:

Applying a Gaussian distribution actually makes the teachers discretion worse.

The grind school will likely have a lot of space to issue high marks to most students given previous performance while the tech probably wont have any.

The issue is more the reverse where the class clown with a rich daddy in a grind school will get a high mark on his schools reputation while the swot in a tech will be punished and presumed to be one of those village turnips.

is_that_so

topmanamillion wrote: »

Definitely the fairest outcome out of a bunch of pretty poor options.

Their last school contact was in March and they were expected to do a leaving in August. Always a pipe dream. And would've seriously disadvantaged them compared to other years.

It wouldn't have been fair on teenagers coming from abusive homes where school is an escape. Or those that don't have WiFi or the other catalogue of reasons why studying from home isn't an option for them.

I'd imagine the vast majority will roll with predicted grades. The uptake for the exam option will be fairly small.

I don't think other years are relevant here, in terms of results. Those of the LC class of 2020 will be competing against each other. One knock-on affect from all of this is it now pushes the outcomes of what will unquestionably be an even more flawed system onto 3rd level.

daheff

what about people who are already repeating the leaving certificate outside of the school systems?

this decision is an abdication of responsibility of schools & our education system.


If this is anything to go by, don't expect schools to open until near christmas time.


For anybody who is wondering about social distancing during exams and it not being achievable....of course it is. you don't have 2 students sitting side by side doing an exam. This is already done so that they wont copy work or communicate.

We've done a lot of things right in regards to the covid19 situation, but between this and the HSE app farce we're rapidly falling back to our eejitism ways.

plodder

topmanamillion wrote: »

Definitely the fairest outcome out of a bunch of pretty poor options.

Their last school contact was in March and they were expected to do a leaving in August. Always a pipe dream. And would've seriously disadvantaged them compared to other years.

That is definitely unfair, but how can anyone say that predicted grades is fairer?

It wouldn't have been fair on teenagers coming from abusive homes where school is an escape. Or those that don't have WiFi or the other catalogue of reasons why studying from home isn't an option for them.

I'd imagine the vast majority will roll with predicted grades. The uptake for the exam option will be fairly small.

niallo27

So are they telling us they plan to open restaurants in July and pubs in August but we cant sit a ****en leaving cert. We are being run by a shower of incompetent fools, is any other country in Europe doing this.

frillyleaf

is_that_so wrote: »

I agree. There is a huge risk in terms of validity, credibility and fairness of applying a completely untested evaluation system to such an important exam. Issues will most likely emerge at the other end with the CAO process and 3rd level places.

They may give students that complete the opt in leaving certain first preference in application. Therefore students who are applying for high point courses may still be able to sit exam if they want to.

How are schools going to open in September if 1/6th of pupils can’t be managed in empty buildings now? I suspect secondary school will be staggered hours and blended learning by September

frillyleaf

niallo27 wrote: »

So are they telling us they plan to open restaurants in July and pubs in August but we cant sit a ****en leaving cert. We are being run by a shower of incompetent fools, is any other country in Europe doing this.

Unless it’s on compassionate grounds? If the decision is being made on social distancing I can’t understand how schools will be open in September as it’s only 2 weeks after the leaving cert ends. Maybe schools need to use the summer time to prepare adequately for September?

is_that_so

daheff wrote: »

what about people who are already repeating the leaving certificate outside of the school systems?

this decision is an abdication of responsibility of schools & our education system.


If this is anything to go by, don't expect schools to open until near christmas time.


For anybody who is wondering about social distancing during exams and it not being achievable....of course it is. you don't have 2 students sitting side by side doing an exam. This is already done so that they wont copy work or communicate.

We've done a lot of things right in regards to the covid19 situation, but between this and the HSE app farce we're rapidly falling back to our eejitism ways.

Agreed, education has been given a very low profile throughout this. Beyond the blanket school shutdown it seems that not much work has gone into addressing anything at all. Contrast this with the enormous levels of effort and expertise that has gone into the health side of the crisis. Even where problems arose they endeavoured to find solutions quickly. This has shown up the cracks in our education system as it probably has in other countries.

BTW apps, like other software have no respect for real world dates. The app would also be considered an aid to an effort, not a panacea and requires a decent take up, 25% I think Harris said. One reason why it has changed is a switch to the decentralised data approach, i.e. most data in the phone. It'll be out when it's ready!

Jizique

niallo27 wrote: »

So are they telling us they plan to open restaurants in July and pubs in August but we cant sit a ****en leaving cert. We are being run by a shower of incompetent fools, is any other country in Europe doing this.

I give up on this govt at this stage - pandering to the noise merchants of SF and PBP, the free everything parties, and neither of whom are particular proponents of education and a successful economy.
God forbid a proper pandemic or emergency would ever hit the country.

Balmed Out

Awful unfair decision, can't imagine this not causing more distress than sitting the exams.

Boggles

Jizique wrote: »

I give up on this govt at this stage - pandering to the noise merchants of SF and PBP, the free everything parties, and neither of whom are particular proponents of education and a successful economy.
God forbid a proper pandemic or emergency would ever hit the country.

It was FF who stated the Leaving was unworkable.

SF and PBP have never been in government and won' be this time.

But sure let's blame them.

Jizique

frillyleaf wrote: »

Unless it’s on compassionate grounds? If the decision is being made on social distancing I can’t understand how schools will be open in September as it’s only 2 weeks after the leaving cert ends. Maybe schools need to use the summer time to prepare adequately for September?

Compassionate grounds? Compassion for the teachers?
They should be moved to the €350 weekly payment for the duration of the crisis - they might be more interested in getting things going instead of opposing every suggestion if this was to happen

Barbeapapa

In my child's secondary school there are teachers children being taught by their parents. How can one fairly assess their own child against those you only know in the classroom?

From another perspective, what do you think will happen to this year's current 5th years in terms of completing the course in time for June '21?

The one I know has been told that the topics covered in this period will not be covered again. The impression given is that come September there will be a return to normal as much as possible (fingers crossed in many ways). The 5th year students will be expected to soldier on and ignore the fact that 8 weeks missed teaching didn't happen. There is yet to be any reassurance that this blip in their LC course will be taken into account. I appreciate that the current 6th years are a priority but 5th years are working away (or not) fretting that they are not doing as good a job of learning as they would in a classroom setting. The stress is pretty intense.

Pitch n Putt

If the exams are cancelled today it’s going to be a totally ridiculous decision

The exams are 2 1/2 months away and we’re going to just call it off today the 8th of May.

Where are these so called leaders /medical experts/politicians taking our country?

Will we just call off the 2021 leaving now also just to be sure to be sure.

It’s turning into an almighty mess

Jizique

Boggles wrote: »

It was FF who stated the Leaving was unworkable.

SF and PBP have never been in government and won' be this time.

But sure let's blame them.

FF disgracefully jumped on the bandwagon last weekend in an attempt (which won’t work) to appear hip and relevant to the youth

micar

As a secondary school teacher...... a few €€€€ thrown my way will be rewarded with a higher than expected grade










Btw....I'm not actually a secondary school teacher

is_that_so

frillyleaf wrote: »

They may give students that complete the opt in leaving certain first preference in application. Therefore students who are applying for high point courses may still be able to sit exam if they want to.

How are schools going to open in September if 1/6th of pupils can’t be managed in empty buildings now? I suspect secondary school will be staggered hours and blended learning by September

Like the general exit plan from this, education needs its own. I don't think they have one bar setting a nice distant date of September and watching what others countries do. I think that even an outline draft of a post-COVID plan would be a good start to engage on. Blended learning is an option but it assumes access to technology.

rodders999

niallo27 wrote: »

So are they telling us they plan to open restaurants in July and pubs in August but we cant sit a ****en leaving cert. We are being run by a shower of incompetent fools, is any other country in Europe doing this.

Spoiler alert....those things won’t happen either.

is_that_so

Balmed Out wrote: »

Awful unfair decision, can't imagine this not causing more distress than sitting the exams.

Yeah, if you're psyched up for it, nerves and all. Much better personal challenge to facing the whims of an individual teacher.

Downlinz

frillyleaf wrote: »

Unless it’s on compassionate grounds? If the decision is being made on social distancing I can’t understand how schools will be open in September as it’s only 2 weeks after the leaving cert ends. Maybe schools need to use the summer time to prepare adequately for September?

It's on populist grounds, they've thrown fairness and rationality out the window with this, it makes no sense from a safety perspective.

The FG core of private schooled will fare well out of grading based on school reputation anyway and once **** hits the fan for everyone else they'll simply blame the students for campaigning so hard for it.

is_that_so

micar wrote: »

As a secondary school teacher...... a few €€€€ thrown my way will be rewarded with a higher than expected grade










Btw....I'm not actually a secondary school teacher

Teachers may become a target to blame for disgruntled students and parents.

El Vino

I have a lot of sympathy for the Leaving cert students, their stress levels must be through the roof with the uncertainty.
My son was due to sit his A-levels this year, one of the first things the UK government was cancel summer exams, in fact it was one of the few things they were out in front of. The big difference between the UK and Ireland though is how important predicted grades as these are what universities use to make conditional offers to Students. Teachers place great store in the accuracy of their predictions as it reflects badly on the school if you are wildly out and also actually does the student a disservice as he will potentially have to go into the bun fight that is university clearing if he misses the grades needed for his predicted offers and could miss out on a course he may other wise have been offered originally.

Also as London is so big I barely know any of his teachers, there is little chance to influence them. I have never seen any of them socially outside of school events. This may of course not be true in rural Wales or Cornwall. The down side is it doesn't suit someone who would pull it out of the bag in the last few months with Grinds and cramming. Luckily he has worked hard consistently and would be delighted with his predicted grades.

Downlinz

Jizique wrote: »

FF disgracefully jumped on the bandwagon last weekend in an attempt (which won’t work) to appear hip and relevant to the youth

FF never imagined the LC would actually be cancelled and tried to gain some points and relevancy for advocating something popular that would never happen. Their bluff has been called and they've now just instigated something that makes it more difficult for those in ordinary working families to get university places. Whoops!

is_that_so

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

If the exams are cancelled today it’s going to be a totally ridiculous decision

The exams are 2 1/2 months away and we’re going to just call it off today the 8th of May.

Where are these so called leaders /medical experts/politicians taking our country?

Will we just call off the 2021 leaving now also just to be sure to be sure.

It’s turning into an almighty mess

It certainly needs a bit more than let's just cancel this. It should be more of here are our alternatives to cancelling the LC.

Boggles

Jizique wrote: »

FF disgracefully jumped on the bandwagon last weekend in an attempt (which won’t work) to appear hip and relevant to the youth

FF are going to be a coalition partner, their stated position was it could not go ahead. Now it is not going ahead.

Again how is that the fault of SF or PBP.

Do you think FG care what SF or PBP think or propose, how many bills or pieces of legislation in the last decade have they supported from either party?

sydthebeat

is_that_so wrote: »

Teachers may become a target to blame for disgruntled students and parents.

MAY become???
Pretty much 100% guaranteed to become.

BrianD3

is_that_so wrote: »

I don't think other years are relevant here, in terms of results. Those of the LC class of 2020 will be competing against each other. One knock-on affect from all of this is it now pushes the outcomes of what will unquestionably be an even more flawed system onto 3rd level.

They are competing with other years though, every year people who already have a LC apply for third level places under the CAO. It isn't a huge number and it's not exactly a level playing field anyway (e.g. due to grade inflation over time) but it is important to have integrity and as much continuity as possible.

History Queen

is_that_so wrote: »

They should be but the same experts need to make sure individually that they evaluate properly and consistently, according to clearly defined criteria.

And who will decide this data and how it should be evaluated and quality control it?