Leaving Cert to be cancelled

y0ssar1an22

BoatMad wrote: »

Good call to cancel it, can’t see any means by which it could be safe and abide by social distancing

set to start 29/07/2020.

phase 4 to be implemented 20/07/2020

Phased opening of crèches, childminders and pre-schools for all. small weddings, baptisms, Barbers and hairdressers. (these are not not restricted to 2m)

Museums, galleries and places of worship re-open. Sports and team leagues
(e.g. Soccer & GAA) and swimming pools. All subject to social distancing.

Gradually decrease restrictions in major urban centres. Hotels etc. on a limited
occupancy basis re-open




Are you saying, social distancing cannot be incorporated into exams? normal exams, you have about 1m between students.
2m is so easy to implement, this decision is so ludacris IMO.

daheff

splinter65 wrote: »

Well reared well balanced students with appropriately supportive parents have nothing to fear from predictive grades and shouldn’t find the process stressful.

everybody should fear predictive grades.

The fact that the individual is well balanced and has supportive parents is irrelevant to the grade issued. The grade is at the whim of the teachers.

A lot of teachers are incompetent. I had an english teacher that in 5th year told me he thought i was somebody else and was wondering why i was in his class!

In LC there are always a number of students who do much better than their teachers expected...and some who do much worse.

Having predictive grades is going to end up with a number of legal cases over results.

mullinr2

If they are cancelling the Leaving Cert because of social distancing issues, how are they going to manage reopening schools in September?
Surely they can appropriately social distance one year of students around the classrooms

Eric Cartman

predictive grades are bad for business.
it basically condemns students who used their mocks as a barometer of how much they knew (as I myself did and many others do) to a reduced grade.

Allowing the teachers any command in the grading is disingenuous also, you'll have teachers in points factory schools like the institute giving every student perfect results to justify the tuition costs.

AdamD

You just can't decide to use predictive grades when the students were not aware that this would be the process when they sat the exams/tests which will go into the predictive grading.

Utterly ludicrous

And funnilly enough probably would have suited me as I had a good mocks and didn't see much improvement in the actual LC, but its still a ridiculous decision.

plodder

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

2m is so easy to implement, this decision is so ludacris IMO.

You'd need a lot more than 2 metres for students sitting together for three hours, but I still don't see how a school can't manage it for one year out of the six that they normally have.

RollieFingers

Such a cop out of a decision to cancel the exams, shocking! Your results are forever tainted if you're one of the students who doesn't choose to sit them when possible, especially as so many saw the mock papers. What a farce.

spurious

Millionaire only not wrote: »

And the difference between a teacher that knows there student over 2/5 years or giving it to an examiner that looks at a paper wrote in 3 hours knows best !
Any teacher worth there salt teaching leaving certs backed up by Inhouse exams should be well capable of giving a result .

That's no problem, as long as the goalposts have not been moved. If students started 5th year knowing there was a chance every house exam, piece of homework and mock would possibly count for a predicted grade in their Leaving Cert., fine, but the problem is that is not the case. This has been landed on people.

No thought for any of the non-standard students as usual - externals, one subject candidates, students who were absent through illness, people repeating one subject outside of a school.

BrianD3

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

There is in general (apart from grind schools) a large extra curricular program where students (who may not normally) can excel in a musical, debating, sports, young scientist, junk couture and hundreds of other programs.
They are not graded.
if the LC is cancelled surely it's only fair that teachers can include a students overall contribution to school life over their five /six years???

Not fair in the slightest. If you are going to let extra curricular activities over the course of 5/6 years influence the final mark then you can only do that if you inform everyone at the beginning, not retrospectively.

PS - when teenagers engage in these activities it is not to "contribute to school life" but

-for the craic
-to get out of classes
-to raise their profile, impress girls etc.

Also applies to some teachers - I can think of several in my time in school who missed huge amounts of classtime because they were off training sports teams or organising musicals. Half the syllabus covered and students having to get grinds to get a half decent LC because some idiot teacher is off training a sports team and getting kudos for it.

Dr Bob

c montgomery wrote: »

I dont see why it can't go ahead

Loads of factories are open and working fine with social distancing

Open all classrooms in a school. 5 students per room with 1 teacher. Staggered arrival and leaving times

Staggered start and leave times are tricky , you have to pretty much keep the kids in a room somewhere at the start , then have them go to the exam , then on finishing the paper wait in another area until the very last student has finished.
Otherwise theres too much chance of " Jimmy finished early and told the lads about to go in to the exam what was on the paper." and since you can only have 5 or so students in each room , you'll need a lot of rooms .

Actually the more I think of it the more this actually sounds like a maths/logic question that should be on the paper " with 25 rooms , 200 hundred students , with 5 students a room , how staggered can the start and finish times be before you run out of rooms"

History Queen

splinter65 wrote: »

Well reared well balanced students with appropriately supportive parents have nothing to fear from predictive grades and shouldn’t find the process stressful.

Firstly, without criteria you cannot say that with certainty. Secondly, the amount of students in that position is not as high as you may think.

BrianBoru00

BrianD3 wrote: »

Not fair in the slightest. If you are going to let extra curricular activities over the course of 5/6 years influence the final mark then you can only do that if you inform everyone at the beginning, not retrospectively.

PS - when teenagers engage in these activities it is not to "contribute to school life" but

-for the craic
-to get out of classes
-to raise their profile, impress girls etc.

Also applies to some teachers - I can think of several in my time in school who missed huge amounts of classtime because they were off training sports teams or organising musicals. Half the syallbus covered and students having to get grinds to get a half decent LC beause some idiot teacher is off training a sports team and getting kudos for it.

The three points you've added are of course valid but regardless, those trips are a part of their education. Very often a difficult student is seen in a different light by the teacher when in a different setting.
And you re point in retrospectively informing students also correct which is why I disagree completely with the decision to cancel it But my point is that IF you re going to get teachers to grade then you should be able to include extra curricular also as that also forms part of your education.
And the very point you be made -it's unfair not to hold the LC as the students were working towards a final exam and did not need to work hard studying for all of their results throughout their time in school but now it seems the intention is to mark them on a completely different criteria which is equally unfair

Seamai

VinLieger wrote: »

Teachers unions should be flailed for not allowing continuous assessment go ahead a few years ago.

Agree 100% and I'm glad to see so many agree with your point.
I'd like to think that this might be the catalyst for change in this area but like you said the unions will be up in arms.

ShaShaBear

When I think back to my LC, when I had no teacher for one subject (she passed from cancer and was never replaced - we were given a host of sustitutes and printed worksheets as we were a tiny class of 6) and when I had another teacher for two other subjects (who was also married to the principal) who absolutely detested me for no other reason than (by her own admission) I was from a broken home and "taking handouts" in a prestigious school, this news would have been catastrophic to me. I failed the mocks in all three and got no less than a B3 in each subject (at H-level) sitting the LC. My bully teacher claimed it was her "pushing" me that resulted in me achieving such a high grade, when really it was that she stopped teaching myself and another very disadvantaged student because we weren't "worth the time" and I was very lucky to have access to a local library with a computer and internet to learn the content on my own.

Anyone who thinks that there are no teachers out there who will use this system to punish students is deluding themselves. Children will suffer for this.

History Queen

Seamai wrote: »

Agree 100% and I'm glad to see so many agree with your point.
I'd like to think that this might be the catalyst for change in this area but like you said the unions will be up in arms.

Firstly, it was the JC so wouldn't havemade a blind bit of difference to the LC situation we are in.

Secondly, you and the previous poster don't understand the issue fully. Teachers unions were not against continuous assessment they were against marking their own students work. If the Department would have allowed continuous assessment work to be marked externally teachers unions would have agreed. The department wouldn't agree to this.

y0ssar1an22

History Queen wrote: »

Firstly, it was the JC so wouldn't havemade a blind bit of difference to the LC situation we are in.

Secondly, you and the previous poster don't understand the issue fully. Teachers unions were not against continuous assessment they were against marking their own students work. If the Department would have allowed continuous assessment work to be marked externally teachers unions would have agreed. The department wouldn't agree to this.

god only knows how the current situation is resolved if that still holds true

Gbear

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Do you know what happens students who can’t cope with exams?

They don’t get the most in demand courses, or go to college at all, and that’s fine because the most in demand courses require a lot of study, learning and examinations.

If a student can’t do a leaving cert then medicine is not for them, or actuary, or flying space rockets, or veterinary, accountancy etc etc, but a lot of Students want to do those courses so there is a legitimate competition to decide on merit who gets them.

Except that as far as I'm aware, there aren't any college courses where 100% of your grades are based off of 1 exam at the end of a 2 year period.


If they tried to implement that for getting your Diploma, there'd be riots. Because on some level people understand that it's utterly insane how the LC is strucutered.




The third level institutions have a decent idea of what each of their courses will need in terms of competency.


It should not be difficult for them, the government and the schools to organise a smaller set of exams in, for example, September, that will determine whether or not they can get into their chosen CAO options, based on the set of subjects they're actually interested in.

Also, mature students are expected to write a little 1000 word spiel about their suitability to being selected for a course. All leaving cert students could do likewise, and it could be 1 component of a portfolio they could be preparing right now that sets out why they're good enough to be considered for their chosen course.

This is nothing like an insurmountable problem. The LC is not important. A bit of cash, and a bit of effort should be sufficient to circumvent this issue.

BoatMad

This is nothing like an insurmountable problem. The LC is not important. A bit of cash, and a bit of effort should be sufficient to circumvent this issue.

+1

History Queen

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

god only knows how the current situation is resolved if that still holds true

The issues around predicting grades are exactly the concerns the unions had on teachers assessing their own work. Aside from voicing concerns, (which are well founded) unions won't prevent teachers from doing it in these circumstances as to do so would be to disadvantage students even more. As usual teachers will have to swallow a bitter pill, knowing that many of our students will suffer, all the while being castigated by the ill informed about what a terrible lazy bunch they are and how they never think of the poor students.

BoatMad

History Queen wrote: »

The issues around predicting grades are exactly the concerns the unions had on teachers assessing their own work. Aside from voicing concerns, (which are well founded) unions won't prevent teachers from doing it in these circumstances as to do so would be to disadvantage students even more. As usual teachers will have to swallow a bitter pill, knowing that many of our students will suffer, all the while being castigated by the ill informed about what a terrible lazy bunch they are and how they never think of the poor students.

school exams are beginning now, with emailed questions and parents as invigilators, teachers have been on all week , checking on students , talking to parents. Teachers put in long hours and actually care about their students

CiarraiAbu2

I really thought the teacher unions would would fight tooth and nail to have the exams, at least they can't be accused of anything in that scenario. You would want to be a brave teacher to fail any student and how many teachers are going to be under pressure to up the grades.

Don't envy the teachers, cop out by the government.

Mick Barry is having a victory rally on FB at 6 this evening, you should see some of the comments on Twitter.

John.Icy

Don't see why the government are getting that much flack to be honest. The students en masse pushed for predicted grading and exams to be cancelled. Many played the mental health, stress and depression card (not here to argue that, I'm sure many legitimately felt this way and of course others used it to push the cause).

What is the government actually supposed to do with hundreds of 17/18 year olds saying they don't know what they will do with themselves if they have to sit the LC this summer? Hands tied, could have had a very ugly scenario come July and we'd all be berating the government for not cancelling. 79% wanted predicted grading (out of 24,000, decent sized poll). If anything, props to the government for listening and delivering what the majority wanted - they don't do that enough. Hopefully they will have a good system in place for those squeezed by their predicted grades to go and sit their exams. I'm sure there are tonnes of young naive people who were delighted at the prospected of no exams and a predicted grade that will be crushed by their eventual result.

Beasty

Donald Trump wrote: »

No more cash in hand nixers for the poor tutor either!

Donald Trump wrote: »

Learning doesn't stop when you finish school........unless you go onto be something like a teacher yourself :pac:

Give it a rest. If you continue with your snide comments about teachers you will lose posting privileges

History Queen

BoatMad wrote: »

school exams are beginning now, with emailed questions and parents as invigilators, teachers have been on all week , checking on students , talking to parents. Teachers put in long hours and actually care about their students

I know that. Unfortunately that is not the prevailing belief. I currrntly am looking at three unanswered emails my 6th years sent me trying to word a reply that doesn't worry them further or add to the confusion. So far I have one line "Nothing official has been issued so I just don't know right now, as soon as we know anything the school will be in touch with you".

BrianBoru00

John.Icy wrote: »

Don't see why the government are getting that much flack to be honest. The students en masse pushed for predicted grading and exams to be cancelled. Many played the mental health, stress and depression card (not here to argue that, I'm sure many legitimately felt this way and of course others used it to push the cause).

What is the government actually supposed to do with hundreds of 17/18 year olds saying they don't know what they will do with themselves if they have to sit the LC this summer? Hands tied, could have had a very ugly scenario come July and we'd all be berating the government for not cancelling. 79% wanted predicted grading (out of 24,000, decent sized poll). If anything, props to the government for listening and delivering what the majority wanted - they don't do that enough. Hopefully they will have a good system in place for those squeezed by their predicted grades to go and sit their exams. I'm sure there are tonnes of young naive people who were delighted at the prospected of no exams and a predicted grade that will be crushed by their eventual result.

How was that survey conducted ?
Was it through verified school email addresses as you would do in a public service survey for example. Or was it survey monkey where it would be easy for the same person to vote multiple times?

History Queen

John.Icy wrote: »

Don't see why the government are getting that much flack to be honest. The students en masse pushed for predicted grading and exams to be cancelled. Many played the mental health, stress and depression card (not here to argue that, I'm sure many legitimately felt this way and of course others used it to push the cause).

What is the government actually supposed to do with hundreds of 17/18 year olds saying they don't know what they will do with themselves if they have to sit the LC this summer? Hands tied, could have had a very ugly scenario come July and we'd all be berating the government for not cancelling. 79% wanted predicted grading (out of 24,000, decent sized poll). If anything, props to the government for listening and delivering what the majority wanted - they don't do that enough. Hopefully they will have a good system in place for those squeezed by their predicted grades to go and sit their exams. I'm sure there are tonnes of young naive people who were delighted at the prospected of no exams and a predicted grade that will be crushed by their eventual result.

Because the government shouldn't be swayed by the ill-informed. Students are badly affected by this situation but they also do not have the in depth knowledge of the education system or in some cases the maturity to understand the ramifications of what the consequences of these actions will be. That is not a slight on them, I wouldn't wxpect them to. At their stage in life they shouldn't have to look much further than the end of their own nose and should be concerned with enjoying life and getting a start on their future careers.

For a government to make a populist decison that will be so damaging to our students is reprehensible. It is akin to a parent allowing a toddler to eat junk food all day every day because they are too lazy to parent appropriately and put up with short term whining in the child's best interests long term.

BoatMad

History Queen wrote: »

I know that. Unfortunately that is not the prevailing belief. I currrntly am looking at three unanswered emails my 6th years sent me trying to word a reply that doesn't worry them further or add to the confusion. So far I have one line "Nothing official has been issued so I just don't know right now, as soon as we know anything the school will be in touch with you".

its appalling how teachers have been kept in the dark over this

BoatMad

For a government to make a populist decison that will be so damaging to our students is reprehensible. It is akin to a parent allowing a toddler to eat junk food all day every day because they are too lazy to parent appropriately and put up with short term whining in the child's best interests long term.

I hardly see is as "populist" , They be dammed if they did and dammed if they don't, You either accept the SD protocols and if you do the expert advice was that schools could not see a reliable and practical way to run the exams, and this is what the state examinations board told teh minister

whats was reprehensible was to lie to kids in the first place about " hook or crook " nonsense

BillyBiggs

niallo27 wrote: »

The quiet ones will be ok as they made their lifes easier, it's the ones that caused hassle that will be in trouble.

That’s true in a way. But I still think the quiet ones mightn’t have made an impression either way with some teachers.

BillyBiggs

BillyBiggs wrote: »

That’s true in a way. But I still think the quiet ones mightn’t have made an impression either way with some teachers.

Only if Cameron Diaz is teaching them.