Leaving Cert to be cancelled

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Seamai wrote: »

There's no guarantee that "blind" correctors biases don't come into play when correcting lots of subjects, take an essay for example or practical art exams. I've often wondered just how objective correctors are. I'd also be a bit concerned that someone who is correcting for two or three weeks might get bored reading the same thing hour after hour, especially since rote learning seems to be encouraged so much

You can’t completely eliminate it, no, and correctors are human. But what would the corrector be biased towards or against when all they have is an exam number as opposed to, say, knowing a student’s parents gave the school a huge donation that year?

Everyone knows it can’t be completely equal but you remove the variables that you can and knowing the students is a hugely important variable.

BoatMad

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

You can’t completely eliminate it, no, and correctors are human. But what would the corrector be biased towards or against when all they have is an exam number as opposed to, say, knowing a student’s parents have the school a huge donation that year?

they will know the student in predicated grades , as they have to add their opinion to the summary of exam results to deal with edge cases

the majority of the grades will reflect the students performance and the teachers input will no doubt be minimal

It's a pretty sneaky solution for the department to recommend upping everyone's grade.

Students will be happy but 3rd level places are still run on supply and demand so it doesn't really matter if no one fails anything, the top x percent go to college.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a pretty sneaky solution for the department to recommend upping everyone's grade.

Students will be happy but 3rd level places are still run on supply and demand so it doesn't really matter if no one fails anything, the top x percent go to college.

yes that the case anyway, the absolute value of the marks in the LC is useless by and large

and given there will be no foreign students , more Irish will go

sounds like a win win to me

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

BoatMad wrote: »

they will know the student in predicated grades , as they have to add their opinion to the summary of exam results to deal with edge cases

the majority of the grades will reflect the students performance and the teachers input will no doubt be minimal

Having spent 13 years in small town schooling, I don’t believe that at all. In fact, some of the favouritism was quite blatant. Absolute thicks being put in the A-stream classes at the expense of a more deserving student, for example.

You might think I’m being paranoid but there is a reason everyone is just a number in the exams. It isn’t for the craic, like.

Mike3287

It's not a bad idea

Might as well give kids whatever results they need to get course of choice

If they get through first year of college course they deserved it.

Kids applying to be doctors etc should have an entrance exam in September

spurious

LC 2020 will forever be the made up LC.

They can open restaurants and can't run an exam?

Students could opt for their three/five best subjects and just sit them and the powers that be could fashion a Leaving Cert. out of it while having less candidates for each exam.

So many ways this could have been handled to run the exams. I wonder did anyone consult with the SEC at all or was it all dreamed up by DES folk?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Mike3287 wrote: »

It's not a bad idea

Might as well give kids whatever results they need to get course of choice

If they get through first year of college course they deserved it.

Kids applying to be doctors etc should have an entrance exam in September

The system is still supply and demand. You can’t give every kid their first choice. But sitting the exams was at least a more fair way to decide it rather than subjective predictions.

BoatMad

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Having spent 13 years in small town schooling, I don’t believe that at all. In fact, some of the favouritism was quite blatant. Absolute thicks being put in the A-stream classes at the expense of a more deserving student, for example.

You might think I’m being paranoid but there is a reason everyone is just a number in the exams. It isn’t for the craic, like.

are predicated grades fair , no , is a major single event written exam , fair , no , is a Covid lockdown fair, is life fair

no,

lets move on

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

spurious wrote: »

LC 2020 will forever be the made up LC.

They can open restaurants and can't run an exam?

Students could opt for their three/five best subjects and just sit them and the powers that be could fashion a Leaving Cert. out of it while having less candidates for each exam.

So many ways this could have been handled to run the exams. I wonder did anyone consult with the SEC at all or was it all dreamed up by DES folk?

Really good suggestion. Every student has a subject or two that they’d happily jettison.

BoatMad

LC 2020 will forever be the made up LC.

my brother was given his drivers license , its not an issue today

this kids that get their engineering degree , doctors etc will wipe their arses with their LC results

BoatMad

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Really good suggestion. Every student has a subject or two that they’d happily jettison.

it still means you have to run all the exams and that isnt practical as has been decided

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

BoatMad wrote: »

are predicated grades fair , no , is a major single event written exam , fair , no , is a Covid lockdown fair, is life fair

no,

lets move on

Um, no? We’re in a thread about the LC being cancelled.

No system is perfect, but a single exam with guaranteed anonymity is much more fair. Everything is not equally unfair or fair.

BoatMad

spurious wrote: »

LC 2020 will forever be the made up LC.

They can open restaurants and can't run an exam?

Students could opt for their three/five best subjects and just sit them and the powers that be could fashion a Leaving Cert. out of it while having less candidates for each exam.

So many ways this could have been handled to run the exams. I wonder did anyone consult with the SEC at all or was it all dreamed up by DES folk?

sure , all that would happen is everyone would game teh system and chose their best subjects , you might as well give them a makeup grade

so we have LCs made up of domestic science, etc etc

BoatMad

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Um, no? We’re in a thread about the LC being cancelled.

No system is perfect, but a single exam with guaranteed anonymity is much more fair. Everything is not equally unfair or fair.

Covid isnt fair , teh situation demands a different approach , thats what is being done , build a bridge

and the end of the day , those that get what they wanted will NOT care how they got it

spurious

spurious wrote: »

LC 2020 will forever be the made up LC.

They can open restaurants and can't run an exam?

Students could opt for their three/five best subjects and just sit them and the powers that be could fashion a Leaving Cert. out of it while having less candidates for each exam.

So many ways this could have been handled to run the exams. I wonder did anyone consult with the SEC at all or was it all dreamed up by DES folk?

TBH I think they're just washing their hands of it because they can continue to tinker around but get the same amount of criticism whatever they do.
I'm not saying your idea is a bad one (I also happen to think the LC is more or less fit for purpose which is often a minority position :P ) but would lead to "That's not fair on the well-rounded students", "Someone who is good at maths could pick maths, applied maths and physics to get into any course". I dunno, feels like they're just cutting their losses to focus elsewhere.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

BoatMad wrote: »

Covid isnt fair , teh situation demands a different approach , thats what is being done , build a bridge

and the end of the day , those that get what they wanted will NOT care how they got it

That’s... not a good thing.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

so we have LCs made up of domestic science, etc etc

Do you know what the Home Economics (I imagine this is what you are referring to) syllabus contains? And what are the etc etc subjects, do tell.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you know what the Home Economics (I imagine this is what you are referring to) syllabus contains? And what are the etc etc subjects, do tell.

no , but my wife teaches , it , wait Ill ask

BoatMad

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s... not a good thing.

why , the LC is a point in time , thats all , its useful decreases exponentially

joseywhales

BoatMad wrote: »

my brother was given his drivers license , its not an issue today

this kids that get their engineering degree , doctors etc will wipe their arses with their LC results

It's not about the value of the points. It's about many borderline students trying to get into competitive courses with restricted places. How should we decide of the thousands of kids that both want and have the ability to complete a medical degree , who gets accepted? The opinions of teachers? It will only lead to more disadvantage for those already disadvantaged.

The exam was a measure of unbiased meritocracy at least, the grind schools changed that, putting the advantage with the wealthy again but it can still be done. The LC is the opportunity, however unlikely for the kid from a poor family, who has no network and even clashes with their teachers, to get into medical/engineering/law whatever on their ability to self organise and study.

I've been in the classes where kids were singled out and ostracized because of some behavioral issue and the teacher knows their siblings and their crazy family for example. They fight against prejudice all the time but we are going to take away their one objective measure to get to the life that they want.

All this will mean is that more students who are "expected to do well" will outcompete those with more natural talent and determination.

Mrsmum

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Having spent 13 years in small town schooling, I don’t believe that at all. In fact, some of the favouritism was quite blatant. Absolute thicks being put in the A-stream classes at the expense of a more deserving student, for example.

You might think I’m being paranoid but there is a reason everyone is just a number in the exams. It isn’t for the craic, like.

It's a bit shocking this admission or acceptance of unprofessionalism from teachers which has been repeated here over and over. I have to say I have never once met a teacher at meetings that I wasn't impressed just how well they knew my children/their students and their academic abilities, the good, the bad and the ugly. I always thought they nailed it exactly.

notwhoyouthink

This will be a very interesting experiment in social justice.

For the first time in decades those who have bought their Leaving Certificate will no longer be able to do so.

So expect the D4 dominance in some top programmes and university to wane for one year!

Will the D4 people claim a refund for their private fees, i.e., downpayments on LC result.

Alrigghtythen

An online exam could be arranged easily enough for most subjects. I dont understand this decision at all.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

no , but my wife teaches , it , wait Ill ask

Do, and try and keep the condescension out of your voice. She'll less likely think you a fool.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Mrsmum wrote: »

It's a bit shocking this admission or acceptance of unprofessionalism from teachers which has been repeated here over and over. I have to say I have never once met a teacher at meetings that I wasn't impressed just how well they knew my children/their students and their academic abilities, the good, the bad and the ugly. I always thought they nailed it exactly.

I know, I wish I was joking. I have to say, lots of teachers in my schools were great. But a significant enough minority were blatantly susceptible to favouritism and biase and didn’t even really hide it. In small towns, it’s really apparent. Small example - every year, you could predict who would get the lead parts in the musical because the music teacher was a weak-willed eejit. It sure as hell wasn’t based on talent. You’d just know. We were never wrong.

It wasnt me123

SusieBlue wrote: »

I don’t disagree with you but surely you can acknowledge that changing the entire format at the 11th hour is going to leave a large amount of students at a distinct disadvantage here?
Frankly whether 12 weeks of schooling should come down to 2 weeks in June is irrelevant. That’s a conversation for a different thread.

No in my opinion - its not irrelevant. Children have been out of school since 12 march - almost 2 mths so far and they were going to ad on another 2 months - and then do the LC as normal - nuts, nothing about this is normal; lots of children were struggling with online study and the online study varied from school to school - lots of children would have been at a disadvantage by this method.

That was the system, and that’s what they were working towards for the last 6 years. Maybe this will suit students who don’t like exams but it will certainly have a massive negative impact on any students who weren’t doing so well all year, who then put most of the work in over the last few weeks.

You answered your own question - for the last 6 years ... students put most of the work in in the last few weeks - the LC as it is is a disaster. No other western european country relies on 1 exam at the end of 6 years of school for college entrance - all others use exams, school work, attendance, projects etc, a much better multi level system.

Neither teachers nor students will benefit from this new arrangement. I reckon most of them are going to end up repeating now anyway, which causes a whole new set of problems in itself.
I can’t believe that this is the best solution they could come up with.

My daughter and I are delighted with this solution and maybe now the education dept and unions can have a grown up discussion about how the Leaving Certificate is designed going forward - now is the time to change it - everything is changing, the new normal, lets have a new LC.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Panjandrums wrote: »

Why are you all complaining?
79% of 24,000 Leaving Cert students didn't want the exam to go ahead.

The funny thing is the CAO points system doesn't reflect the job opportunities and salary available.

Take construction/built environment for example , there was a 4% drop in demand for the courses in 2017/2018, despite there being a shortage of skills. Starting salaries are far above most 500+ points courses.

Why would it? The CAO points are set by supply and demand. Many people know the course they want won’t lead to big bucks.

And of course many kids will be delighted not to sit the exams. I suspect many of them haven’t thought it through.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Do, and try and keep the condescension out of your voice. She'll less likely think you a fool.

I always call it domestic science , winds her up no end ,

CageWager

LC Student 2020: I need the leaving cert to be cancelled otherwise I’ll be suicidal.

DoE: OK hon, we’ll cancel the whole thing, you just stay safe. Here are some pictures of kittens for you to look at.

Same student 5 years later: I need a promotion, a bigger desk, and a higher salary, otherwise I’ll be suicidal.

Boss: Blow it out your hole