Leaving Cert to be cancelled

frillyleaf

Jizique wrote: »

Compassionate grounds? Compassion for the teachers?
They should be moved to the €350 weekly payment for the duration of the crisis - they might be more interested in getting things going instead of opposing every suggestion if this was to happen

I meant for the students. Has anyone officially said why it is nit workable ? If it’s due to social distancing there is a good chance schools won’t be back in September

GazzaL

The more that comes out about this, the worse it gets.

ChikiChiki

Panjandrums wrote: »

Leaving Cert 2020 - everyone is critical of the decision but provides no solution of their own.

Emmmm, about 5 posts in someone suggested classrooms of 5 with staggered arrival times. That sounds like a sensible solution.

Maybe read the thread. Plenty of solutions. The one that is going ahead is facical.

landofthetree

I can see colleges holding their own exams.

Especially for engineering courses. A math exam at a minimum.

frillyleaf

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

Even if students receive grades in excess of what they deserve, there's still limited places in each college course, hence our general system of supply and demand. Points inflation will be mirrored in a points-required-per-course inflation. The system will balance itself out.

I wonder for the very high point courses will students be given the option to sit the exam get preference on awarding places over students who opted for predicted grades.

Say for example, a course that 595 points is needed. Will students who opt to sit exam be given preference over those that opt for predictive results.

Teachers will try to be fair but human nature naturally has a liking and disliking towards each person. I can’t see how this is a fair way to admit students into the higher point courses.

plodder

Millionaire only not wrote: »

The legal end of it is being covered by offering u the predicted marks and a chance to appeal if your not happy .
If your still not happy, there allowing u to sit the exam when it is safe .
Case closed

Not so fast. The appeal isn't going to overturn a structural inequality. Sitting the exam means missing out this year's college intake and there was a case a couple of years ago where the SEC tried to fob someone off in that way, which they lost.

1123heavy

Mr.S wrote: »

Isn't the issue more because of stressed students and teachers being unable to deliver adequate teaching if the LC goes ahead?

Is it so bad that the worst-case scenario is students miss out on 2020 college intake if they aren't happy with their predicted results and sit the leaving cert later in the year? I agree the proposed solution isn't perfect, but given the circumstances...

Give the students who sit the exams extra points as compensation for missing this years college intake, and this time next year everyone will have forgotten about this.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Online courses via zoom, emailed work and exercise examples, then in July when restrictions are planned to be eased, if possible there could be the opportunity for students to go in to the school for top up lessons with the teachers. Even earlier than July if the classes can be divided into say groups of 5, each have a 2hr session with the teacher.

All that was required was a bit of effort, no need for the whole throw the baby out with the bath water approach that has been taken.

amacca

Mr.S wrote: »

Isn't the issue more because of stressed students and teachers being unable to deliver adequate teaching if the LC goes ahead?

Is it so bad that the worst-case scenario is students miss out on 2020 college intake if they aren't happy with their predicted results and sit the leaving

Give the students who sit the exams extra points as compensation for missing this years college intake, and this time next year everyone will have forgotten about this.

I'd imagine you can't do that as it would be open to legal challenge from next year's cohort of lcs the lc class of 2021 ...would they not claim the sitters have an unfair advantage on them

Millionaire only not

plodder wrote: »

Not so fast. The appeal isn't going to overturn a structural inequality. Sitting the exam means missing out this year's college intake and there was a case a couple of years ago where the SEC tried to fob someone off in that way, which they lost.

The country is under no obligation to supply u with a leaving cert .

Greensoup

plodder wrote: »

Here we go ..

Never mind if your school doesn't achieve that highly in Physics say, but has a bright kid this this year. Too bad, the school will drag them down. Or if the school normally does well, but this year's crop are below average. Never mind we'll lift their marks up to match the last few years.

How can anyone say that is fair? Is it even legal?

One student won’t affect the points average by a great amount. Say18 physics students and average CAO points your school gets in physics is 40ish every year, that’s an average of about H6That means there accumulated points around 720. If this year this school had an exceptional physics student he gets H1. A H1 is 54 points more than a H6. So now average points for 2020 is 780. Divided by 18 is average 43 so just above 40ish. Still within average school standard over last 4 years.

titan18

Mr.S wrote: »

Isn't the issue more because of stressed students and teachers being unable to deliver adequate teaching if the LC goes ahead?

Is it so bad that the worst-case scenario is students miss out on 2020 college intake if they aren't happy with their predicted results and sit the leaving cert later in the year? I agree the proposed solution isn't perfect, but given the circumstances...

Give the students who sit the exams extra points as compensation for missing this years college intake, and this time next year everyone will have forgotten about this.

How would extra points be fair to those LCs next year?

Multipass

Mr.S wrote: »

Isn't the issue more because of stressed students and teachers being unable to deliver adequate teaching if the LC goes ahead?

Is it so bad that the worst-case scenario is students miss out on 2020 college intake if they aren't happy with their predicted results and sit the leaving cert later in the year? I agree the proposed solution isn't perfect, but given the circumstances...

Give the students who sit the exams extra points as compensation for missing this years college intake, and this time next year everyone will have forgotten about this.

This time next year will be a mess - a massive increase in numbers applying for colleges, the points will skyrocket. I actually feel sorrier for next years leaving certs, they will be competing against those who’ve done the year twice.

Spanish Eyes

Look, the genie is out of the bottle, and the vast majority of students are delighted that it's all over now. No way will anyone get any other solution to this now.

Anyway, there is a lot of hysteria on here about teacher's pets and teacher's targets. That won't happen, the situation is too fraught with potential complaints. No student will fail either, and everyone will get their points and at least one of their top 3 CAO courses. That's my guess.

It is not a normal time for anyone with regard to anything anymore. Let's wait and see.

GreeBo

notwhoyouthink wrote: »

Whether you admit it or not, this is a class-based argument.

Who are the class of brain surgeons? The people who go to school on St. Stephen's Green or the Institute?

I dont like it and its not a class based argument.

In my own school students were divided up in first year based on how they performed in an entrance/IQ exam.
Back then there were 5 groups of first years, i'm sure the same happens all over the country and in bigger or smaller scales.

Its nothing to do with what you mean by class, its merely pointing out one of the problems with a bell curve, you are fitting people to a curve not fitting the curve to the people.

Multipass

Mr.S wrote: »

That's assuming a lot of people are unhappy with their predicted grades. I'm fairly sure it will be a small number opting to sit exams after they appeal.

Those with subjects outside of school may not even get graded this year. In terms of the high point courses like medicine, I’m fairly sure it’s going to be a significant amount. Competition could well be brutal next year.

retro:electro

Mr.S wrote: »

Didn't HPAT already go ahead for 2020?

True though, if you want to get into medicine and take extra subjects outside school, then you are likely going to miss out on the 2020 intake. Is that a high % of students? No idea. I'd imagine most students take the bulk of their subjects within their school though.

Yeah the HPAT was held in February

plodder

Millionaire only not wrote: »

The country is under no obligation to supply u with a leaving cert .

The High Court might disagree.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/case-in-which-leaving-cert-marks-wrongly-totted-up-cannot-be-repeated-1.3650506

y0ssar1an22

just watching the news, a foreign girl speaking. she was doing her native language externally, but with this it wont be factored into the predictive grades, due to no teacher.

that is surely the easiest of this cluster **** to solve. do a zoom call, if you are fluent, you get an A1.

ebbsy

The solicitors will be raking it in when the grades come out.....

GazzaL

Mr.S wrote: »

What's stupid about that is that the numbers doing those subjects / exams are very low and can easily be done with social distancing.

There really should be a solution where people who want to take their exams are allowed to do so, all subjects. Give them a 5% bonus compared to those who are happy to take predicted grades, and make a note on the results sheets of those who choose the predicted grades option.

Panjandrums

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Emmmm, about 5 posts in someone suggested classrooms of 5 with staggered arrival times. That sounds like a sensible solution.

Maybe read the thread. Plenty of solutions. The one that is going ahead is facical.

Well that's your opinion. What about thinking of the bigger picture?

What about the student that has no space to study at home?
What about the student who has no internet?
The students were saying this was causing issues with their mental health. This solution gives them relief.

If you have a problem with the predicted grade, you have the option to sit the exam at a later date. Fair enough your trip to university will be delayed by a year, but everyone's life is on hold at the moment.

This solution suits the majority of people. The majority rules.

ziedth

I was a quite kid in school, a bit lazy maybe but I was always respectful of teachers. However, my HL geography absolutely hated me.... no reason from what I could see, graded me poorly, asked OTT hard questions during class, snide comments to make me look stupid the whole deal...... I ended up doing well in the subject (For me) and got like a B2 I think. Anyway, results in those days you used to collect from the school and when a teacher asked how I got on and I gave her the top line this teacher was in ear shot and I could literally see the disappointment in her face.

The point being If my result had been up to that teacher without question she would have failed me...... It's a ridiculous solution to pull out of the Hat

Rodin

eastie17 wrote: »

More likely they didn't even try to put together a plan thats why no appeal for invigilators.
This all along has felt like its ass backwards. Announce what the plan is and then try to figure it out, supposed to be the other way around.
I guarantee you they dont even know how this new plan is going to work and it will all go to **** when they start to get into the details.
I'm even starting to hear that they are now going to have row back on the 100% for all in the orals, that they will have to be assessed by teachers now also.

Proper order.
No good reason whatsoever to give everyone 100%.

Why will it now take until August for the predicted grades to be put together? Should be a month at best

y0ssar1an22

GazzaL wrote: »

There really should be a solution where people who want to take their exams are allowed to do so, all subjects. Give them a 5% bonus compared to those who are happy to take predicted grades, and make a note on the results sheets of those who choose the predicted grades option.

Would be interesting to see what would happen if the following occurred:

All of you (whatever % sign up), are going to get a LC based on predicted grades.

Based upon that, the numbers wanting to sit the leaving cert are at such a level that we can implement social distancing, and you can sit those exams week starting 29/07/2020.

Rodin

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Would be interesting to see what would happen if the following occurred:

All of you (whatever % sign up), are going to get a LC based on predicted grades.

Based upon that, the numbers wanting to sit the leaving cert are at such a level that we can implement social distancing, and you can sit those exams week starting 29/07/2020.

But then the teachers wouldn't get the summer off.

mariaalice

ziedth wrote: »

I was a quite kid in school, a bit lazy maybe but I was always respectful of teachers. However, my HL geography absolutely hated me.... no reason from what I could see, graded me poorly, asked OTT hard questions during class, snide comments to make me look stupid the whole deal...... I ended up doing well in the subject (For me) and got like a B2 I think. Anyway, results in those days you used to collect from the school and when a teacher asked how I got on and I gave her the top line this teacher was in ear shot and I could literally see the disappointment in her face.

The point being If my result had been up to that teacher without question she would have failed me...... It's a ridiculous solution to pull out of the Hat

Its not just down to the teacher though the principle is involved and another layer , everyone is concentrating on the getting in bit, that is just the start if they do not have the ability and a base of knowledge to build on they will not pass, first-year college has a high drop out rate for some subject.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/leaving-cert-grades-linked-to-finishing-college-904335.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/more-than-6-000-students-drop-out-of-college-in-first-year-1.3062362

Medician and primary teaching have very low drop out rates.

Mrsmum

For at least some children, is this not the best of every world. Student can relax from school work today, does not have to do the dreaded and really difficult LC, gets their grades, mostly fair I would think. If he/she doesn't like a particular mark they can resit that one exam at a later date and if the result is worse go back to the predictive grade. Meanwhile they have accepted a college offer, maybe love it or if they don't can switch to another course next year based on the predictive grade or the improved LC grade if they did better in the resit. Is that not pretty good ???

Multipass

Mrsmum wrote: »

For at least some children, is this not the best of every world. Student can relax from school work today, does not have to do the dreaded and really difficult LC, gets their grades, mostly fair I would think. If he/she doesn't like a particular mark they can resit that one exam at a later date and if the result is worse go back to the predictive grade. Meanwhile they have accepted a college offer, maybe love it or if they don't can switch to another course next year based on the predictive grade or the improved LC grade if they did better in the resit. Is that not pretty good ???

No it isn’t pretty good, it’s a silly generalization of a diverse student body.

lawrencesummers

Maybe we should apply the same rationale to the Hurling and Football championship, the managers decide where the team finishes the championship, and then GAA HQ look over previous results and ‘ standardise’ The results.


Anyone see any issue with this?

stephenjmcd

Millionaire only not wrote: »

The legal end of it is being covered by offering u the predicted marks and a chance to appeal if your not happy .
If your still not happy, there allowing u to sit the exam when it is safe .
Case closed

No it's not, it's very much case open. They've even said it's open to legal situations. If someone misses out on a college course through predictive marking and has to wait to sit an exam and therefore essentially get held back a year starting college you can be sure there's going to be a high court case, theres also precedent a few years ago and she won