Leaving Cert to be cancelled

spurious

Donald Trump wrote: »

I saw a thread over on another forum about a teacher asking about getting compensation for losing "3000-4000 net" as a result of the exams NOT going ahead. Perhaps you, and maybe plenty of others, would be happy to give up a few weeks in August to go back and supervise exams at no extra cost to the state. I'm sure that plenty wouldn't.

Why exactly should someone who had been contracted to do work that was cancelled as a result of covid not be entitled to something? Other jobs are.

Oh wait...are you presuming all teachers who examine for the SEC are in work and teaching full hours?

Newbie20

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't think that you know what "paraphrase" means...........


Anyway, I've better things to be doing than wasting time on this.

I think it’s very obvious to everyone here that you actually have nothing better to be doing.

Donald Trump

spurious wrote: »

Why exactly should someone who had been contracted to do work that was cancelled as a result of covid not be entitled to something? Other jobs are.

Oh wait...are you presuming all teachers who examine for the SEC are in work and teaching full hours?

Hi,


If they are unemployed during any given period they will qualify for payments the same as anyone else.


If they are still employed and getting paid their normal wages, their entitlement to Covid payments would be the same as any other person who might have intended to do additional work ("nixers" if you will) during their holidays from their regular job (or even on weekends!).



No need for the outrage






Teachers salaries are the Schrodinger's Cat of the world of employment in terms of how they like to describe them. I'm not arguing about salaries, I find it funny how they like to change how they describe them to suit any particular argument. I say this because I anticipate some convoluted argument on how teachers actually don't get paid for June/July/Aug but they get paid for the contact hours and that the pay is just smoothed out for them over the 12 months so that they aren't really getting paid.

Donald Trump

Newbie20 wrote: »

I think it’s very obvious to everyone here that you actually have nothing better to be doing.

Lol.

martingriff

You got to love the parties who were calling for the LC to be cancelled and for predictive results now coming out of the woodwork to complain after they actually realised (what load before did) what the process is.

Astral Nav

It's a good while since I did the leaving cert but my secondary schooling was a litany of incompentants, drunks, insecure failed disciplinarians and a few on the edge of a breakdown. Not to mention the bone lazy. I was picked on by our useless 'careers' teacher for no reason and dispite him clearly being a career failure himself. All of these idiots unconditionally supported by their union and each other. The thought of any of those people being able to exact their predjudices based on half memories fills me with horror but at least I had a harshly fair leaving cert which was anonymous. I've done quite well regardless but I seriously doubt the potential for fairness. I know things have changed but tell me that a word in the ear, a present, a favour, a familial relationship or just being a 'nice' boy or girl won't bump up points that a hard slog or cram might have done instead.
It's going to be bitter sitting in arts when Cllr/Deputy/Senator xxxx's entitled son or daughter is sitting in the medical/law/architecture class you hoped to be in.

History Queen

Teacher here. Thinking about it I really wonder why so many students wanted predicted grades seeing as they are in school every day with what seems to be a huge number of incompetent, lazy and morally questionable teachers. At least that must be the case if the anecdotal evidence on this thread and elsewhere since the announcement are anything to go by.

In all seriousness, I have huge reservations about the system suggested and fear for my students. I do worry it won't work out as they hope. Having read the guidelines and FAQ on the government website I'm even more worried. Saying that, I can't offer another alternative to sitting the exams this year.

Rubberchikken

The idea that people can't find fault with teachers is insulting and demeaning.

Not all teachers are equal, no more than any other profession.

To Revere them and expect others to do the same is irrational. None of them deserve to be held in such esteem. They do a job. Some do it well, many don't.

I'm not a fan of this decision by the government or whoever, but it's been decided so I'm willing to see how it goes.

khalessi

Rubberchikken wrote: »

The idea that people can't find fault with teachers is insulting and demeaning.

Not all teachers are equal, no more than any other profession.

To Revere them and expect others to do the same is irrational. None of them deserve to be held in such esteem. They do a job. Some do it well, many don't.

I'm not a fan of this decision by the government or whoever, but it's been decided so I'm willing to see how it goes.

There is a difference between constructive criticism and teacher bashing where people set out to deliberately insult and demean and there are plenty of examples of both on this and other threads. One can be tolerated and discussed the other should not be.

plodder

The complaints will always be noisier than the praise in this situation. So, for what it’s worth, my experience of secondary school decades ago was mostly positive. Religious run school and some of the “religious” were anything but, though all the lay teachers were sound. Since then, my kids have all been through secondary. None of their teachers were incompetent and the vast majority were dedicated.

I didn’t agree with cancelling but ranking of students by their schools is the least objectionable part of the new plan in my opinion.

Donald Trump

khalessi wrote: »

There is a difference between constructive criticism and teacher bashing where people set out to deliberately insult and demean and there are plenty of examples of both on this and other threads. One can be tolerated and discussed the other should not be.

This is a very childish response - "He did it not me" when a child is caught with their face covered in jam and the mother asks who ate it.


The only insult I have seen on this thread came from yourself!


A bit of self-awareness might go a long way............

khalessi

Donald Trump wrote: »

This is a very childish response - "He did it not me" when a child is caught with their face covered in jam and the mother asks who ate it.


The only insult I have seen on this thread came from yourself!


A bit of self-awareness might go a long way............

It is not childish, it is explanatory. Many have acknowledged that there are comments on here that are teacher bashing including some of your own. There are also comments that offer constructive criticism which can be discussed rationally but I dont expect you to be involved in rational conversation.

Donald Trump

khalessi wrote: »

It is not childish, it is explanatory. Many have acknowledged that there are comments on here that are teacher bashing including some of your own. There are also comments that offer constructive criticism which can be discussed rationally but I dont expect you to be involved in rational conversation.

lol. The irony

khalessi

Donald Trump wrote: »

lol. The irony

Oh what a slapdown well done! :rolleyes:Can we get back on thread or do you just like causing disruption?

History Queen

I know this is the most minor thing in the world right now but we were told to finish up with leaving certs today/avoid talk about predicted grades etc. And it only just hit me that I can't say a proper goodbye like I would every other year. Obviously I recorded and uploaded a goodbye message, but it seems so insufficient.
Tiny thing really, but if I feel like this, there must be an emptiness to the kids ending this phase of their lives so abruptly.

Tokyo

Donald Trump wrote: »

This is a very childish response - "He did it not me" when a child is caught with their face covered in jam and the mother asks who ate it.


The only insult I have seen on this thread came from yourself!


A bit of self-awareness might go a long way............

Donald Trump wrote: »

lol. The irony

Mod: @Donald Trump - cop on. Even by CA/IMHO standards, this doesn't exactly foster conversation.

Newbie20

Rubberchikken wrote: »

The idea that people can't find fault with teachers is insulting and demeaning.

Not all teachers are equal, no more than any other profession.

To Revere them and expect others to do the same is irrational. None of them deserve to be held in such esteem. They do a job. Some do it well, many don't.

I'm not a fan of this decision by the government or whoever, but it's been decided so I'm willing to see how it goes.

It’s not the idea that people can’t find fault, it’s the people that make a hobbie out of constant criticism. If there was a well made point that involved constructive criticism there’s no problem at all.

It’s the bashing for the sake of it is what people take issue with it. Like saying “to rever them and expect others to do the same”. What an absolute nonsensical comment.

Donald Trump

Newbie20 wrote: »

It’s not the idea that people can’t find fault, it’s the people that make a hobbie out of constant criticism. If there was a well made point that involved constructive criticism there’s no problem at all.

It’s the bashing for the sake of it is what people take issue with it. Like saying “to rever them and expect others to do the same”. What an absolute nonsensical comment.

Your join date on this site for your current account is April 2020. The person that you are accusing of constant criticism joined in 2013. And a cursory glance at their posts reveals that out of 3869 they have 0 in the teaching forum. Yet you try to put down anything you perceive as negative as a "hobbie" (sic) of constant criticism.



What is it that makes certain people, or groups of people, so defensive? Why are they so insecure and why do some imagined insults cut straight to the bone and evoke such a visceral reaction. It wouldn't' happen in any other group. If you went to the motoring forum and said that a particular garage hadn't fixed your car properly, you wouldn't have dozens of mechanics immediately taking the hump and going balubas; claiming the worst oppression since Auschwitz.





P.S it's "hobby" not "hobbie" and "revere" rather than "rever".

Beasty

Donald Trump wrote: »

Your join date on this site for your current account is April 2020. The person that you are accusing of constant criticism joined in 2013. And a cursory glance at their posts reveals that out of 3869 they have 0 in the teaching forum. Yet you try to put down anything you perceive as negative as a "hobbie" (sic) of constant criticism.



What is it that makes certain people, or groups of people, so defensive? Why are they so insecure and why do some imagined insults cut straight to the bone and evoke such a visceral reaction. It wouldn't' happen in any other group. If you went to the motoring forum and said that a particular garage hadn't fixed your car properly, you wouldn't have dozens of mechanics immediately taking the hump and going balubas; claiming the worst oppression since Auschwitz.





P.S it's "hobby" not "hobbie" and "revere" rather than "rever".

Do not post in this thread again

silverharp

I was talking to a teacher yesterday, apparently with the predicted grades, they will "not be showing their workings" , once they issue the grades they will not be keeping any records. This is to avoid any legal wrangles later, and for what it is worth thought the exams should have gone ahead.

Treppen

silverharp wrote: »

I was talking to a teacher yesterday, apparently with the predicted grades, they will "not be showing their workings" , once they issue the grades they will not be keeping any records. This is to avoid any legal wrangles later, and for what it is worth thought the exams should have gone ahead.

Totally agree, exams should have gone ahead. Ive heard of some fairly sketchy stories so far. Youd be mistaken if you think that's the last we'll be hearing of predicted grades. Already we have students/parents in schools picking over marks for summer exams (5th and 2nd) because they suspect these grades might be used again in future decisions.


BTW it would be normal for LC markers to destroy any work (or required to send it back to the SEC) when marking in July.

Teachers were given assurances that they would not be interrogated and that for appeals it would only be the processing of grades that would be looked at after they are submitted.

Horrible situation.

Have a look at this pressure piece put out by the department press office (aka Irish times)

“It’s going extremely smoothly,” says one principal. “Once teachers got over the fact that it is was happening, they rallied quickly. They know their students well and have no problem coming up with an accurate grade.”

Another adds: “Teachers have had to sit down, put in a huge amount of time and use their professional judgment ... but, listen, if you can’t mark your own kids, you should just pack up and leave your job.”

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/it-s-going-extremely-smoothly-school-principals-on-leaving-cert-grading-1.4273088%3fmode=amp

Talk about condescending!

As usual they didn't seek teacher views.

plodder

Q&A: Could Scottish exams debacle happen here?

It seems fairly likely to me. How can it not? The whole question was swept under the carpet right at the start.

AdamD

What the Scottish have done is bizarre too - they've reinstated the teacher's grades - surely grade inflation is going to be ridiculous.

We'll have the exact same issue here - they're saying it disproportionately affects disadvantaged schools, which it probably does - but unless they've all had miraculously good years, the teachers have predicted way inflated grades.

plodder

AdamD wrote: »

What the Scottish have done is bizarre too - they've reinstated the teacher's grades - surely grade inflation is going to be ridiculous.

Yes, but that's only a problem when comparing one year to another. The competition for places is mostly among students from the same year.

We'll have the exact same issue here - they're saying it disproportionately affects disadvantaged schools, which it probably does - but unless they've all had miraculously good years, the teachers have predicted way inflated grades.

Smacruairi

plodder wrote: »

Yes, but that's only a problem when comparing one year to another. The competition for places is mostly among students from the same year.

Students and parents feeling disaffected can contact the students union, Dr ciara Kelly, and many many members of this forum. Teachers themselves pointed out the myriad number of problems associated but hoi polloi wanted what they wanted and damn everything else.

Re grade inflation, they are of course going to be higher than normal. All students would be undergoing continuous assessment on an informal level which should demonstrate their ability in relaxed settings. As ee all know, the LC is designed to be stressful and thus this stress impacts on results. It is not a teacher's role to guess if they would have cracked or not, it was up give an estimation of their ability based on previous work.

For the Sportspeople among us, the phrase "he's a H1, but can he do it on a wet night in Stoke" comes to mind. This is where "inflation" happens.

Treppen

Could you imagine a student not happy with their results to be told "shur you can sit it in 2 months time".

You'd really want to be in peek perfect mental health to face into a Leaving Cert with 2 months revision + no support from your former teachers. Will the papers be modified? I doubt it as they probably have to use up the stacks of 2020 papers already printed.

When the chips are down I'd say the vast majority will take the grade and move on.

There'll be some serious money to be made with online cramming grinds in October.

I have to laugh at Dr. Ciara Kelly pleading on behalf of the stressed out students to cancel the LC in July saying that they need certainty. Where has that certainty been all the way up to September
and beyond if they decide to repeat
and then be in limbo for another Month or two till they get their results
and then await the CAO debacle to be included with the 2021 LC students who will be sitting exams under totally more advantageous conditions.

joseywhales

I took on an extra subject not taught in my school, bought the book and it contributed to my points total, I met a guy in college that did the same.

Not to be given the chance to have a crack at it must be very frustrating.

Barbeapapa

"..the 2021 LC students who will be sitting exams under totally more advantageous conditions"

Bearing in mind that these "advantageous conditions" are still likely to be rubbish given they have missed months of teaching and have been given no reassurance that this will be taken into account next June. The Doe is not inspiring confidence for any students at the moment. The LC students of 2019 and (hopefully) of 2023 will be the only ones not adversely affected by Covid19.

plodder

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0819/1160008-grades-challenge/

Not the least bit surprised by that. The obvious answer was that the Dept could put some process in place for these home-schooled children so they would get graded at the same time as everyone else. I think it shows that the fallback "plan" of "do the LC exam later in the year" is not likely to hold water in other cases either.

I'm amazed at how little criticism there is of the current plan for the LC statistical rebalancing. I have my suspincions that the UK regions knew all along where they would end up, but they needed the public outcry to get there, but the criticism here has been quite muted, barely a peep from the opposition in particular. So here we are ... still.

MrMusician18

Looks like this story is back with a bang. What a **** show, should never have been cancelled.

Errors with 10% of individuals grades seemingly.