The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

Danzy

noodler wrote: »

Hyperbolic nonsense tbh.

We can't even isolate the right people to get the payment and you think we can then isolate what they spend it on?


For everyone making the stimulus point. How about we increase it to 500? Great for the economy right?

Isolating the right people is going to take too long. It's an emergency in the real world, not the ideal one where every thing is nice.

The Chinese have a mechanism in place for that, it's quite basic.

It'll cost a lot more than 500 per head. The ECB reckons about 6k per head across all of the EU to keep the European economy afloat the next 2 years.

The Brits are talking about the worst economic crisis in 3 centuries, that's not hyperbole, the figures are already coming in.

noodler

Danzy wrote: »

Isolating the right people is going to take too long. It's an emergency in the real world, not the ideal one where every thing is nice.

The Chinese have a mechanism in place for that, it's quite basic.

It'll cost a lot more than 500 per head. The ECB reckons about 6k per head across all of the EU to keep the European economy afloat the next 2 years.

The Brits are talking about the worst economic crisis in 3 centuries, that's not hyperbole, the figures are already coming in.

Sorry, the hyperbole, to be clear, and it's not clear if you picked me up wrong intentionally or not, is that we can't spend much more than we currently are on the fiscal side.

On the monetary side, when did the ECB every talk about helicopter money of 6k per person?

LuasSimon

There surely will be a reduction in the 350 after 12 weeks to 300 or 275 ?
Will part timers be excluded or some lesser payment ?

splashuum

LuasSimon wrote: »

There surely will be a reduction in the 350 after 12 weeks to 300 or 275 ?
Will part timers be excluded or some lesser payment ?

Leo has stated that it will be extended.

splashuum

LuasSimon wrote: »

There surely will be a reduction in the 350 after 12 weeks to 300 or 275 ?
Will part timers be excluded or some lesser payment ?

Leo has stated that it will be extended.

Tea drinker

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I would say the complete opposite . This temporary payment will reduce people getting into debt during this time . This increased payment is mostly for people who were legally working and are now unemployed through no fault of their own.

By giving this payment now we are placing people in a good position to spend when the economy reopens . They will spend in restaurants bars and hotels all of which are labour intensive industries which will boost employment fast.

Educate yourself on economics , listen to some podcasts such as David McWilliams .

This is incorrect, they are just going to be in debt to a different payee. We are already one of the most indebted nations in the developed world so caution is advised.

Blaze420 wrote: »

You do know it's a temporary payment and won't be around forever?

Just like the USC! Will we be calling the new charge the Univeral Corona Charge?

sheepsh4gger

So if oligarchs get free money from the government it's OK but if the public then it's bad.


It's all printed out of thin air anyway, the Cantillon effect ensures that the money printer only supports asset inflation for the already rich. This is why housing is so expensive.

kippy

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I cannot believe people are defending giving a part time worker who had been earning say 150 euro for 15 hours work pre-crisis, more than twice that from the taxpayer for doing nothing.



Not only is it economically and financially illiterate, it's also morally bankrupt. It's completely unfair on those who do actually put in 35 hours at minimum wage to earn that 350.

It's wrong to to have given the money to those cohort of people. But the alternative was much slower payment processing and in the whole scheme of things they additional money given out that may have been saved will be a very small percentage of what this costs us and is likely to end up back in the economy fairly fast.

addaword

kippy wrote: »

... and is likely to end up back in the economy fairly fast.

Which economy only though? A lot of stuff is coming in from foreign businesses like amazon.

new2tri19

Myself and wife are essential workers both HSE although neither direct front line. We are both job sharing to mind our children which is what we have been doing for years.

I have to say we both earn right about 350 take home pay and find it frustrating that we still have to work as normal and in a high risk environment while friends tell us there kids don't know what to do with this new found wealth and are buying iPhones etc
Someone's always going to feel hard done by and I understand why it was paid but hopefully some common sense can prevail and those that need it most get it. If you were been paid less than 350 you should only receive the same amount as last wages.

Pitch n Putt

new2tri19 wrote: »

Myself and wife are essential workers both HSE although neither direct front line. We are both job sharing to mind our children which is what we have been doing for years.

I have to say we both earn right about 350 take home pay and find it frustrating that we still have to work as normal and in a high risk environment while friends tell us there kids don't know what to do with this new found wealth and are buying iPhones etc
Someone's always going to feel hard done by and I understand why it was paid but hopefully some common sense can prevail and those that need it most get it. If you were been paid less than 350 you should only receive the same amount as last wages.

It’s a very tricky situation that’s been created.

Front line workers and others classified as essential workers will get no benefit from this.

These are the people who have put themselves in the firing line of the virus and are keeping the country ticking over

They will be the same people who will be included when the tax increases come.

But I suppose a display of clapping will be of great consolation to them.

As you said some people getting €350 per week for putting themselves at risk whilst others are at home safe getting 3times their normal wage.

Another rushed decision without any thinking but that’s pretty normal for Ireland during this pandemic

mohawk

new2tri19 wrote: »

Myself and wife are essential workers both HSE although neither direct front line. We are both job sharing to mind our children which is what we have been doing for years.

I have to say we both earn right about 350 take home pay and find it frustrating that we still have to work as normal and in a high risk environment while friends tell us there kids don't know what to do with this new found wealth and are buying iPhones etc
Someone's always going to feel hard done by and I understand why it was paid but hopefully some common sense can prevail and those that need it most get it. If you were been paid less than 350 you should only receive the same amount as last wages.

If they had introduced measures like you suggested it would of taken longer to process the claims leaving people who rely on the money to pay their bills struggling ns some mightn’t of had enough money for food.

mohawk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they'll have to cut it before the bookies and pubs have a sniff of a chance of opening though. Absolute carnage will ensue if they let the two collide.

Last time I was between contracts I didn’t gamble once and stopped going out so I could pay my bills. Didn’t realise I was doing it wrong. Should of been drinking and gambling.

People on the €350 had a job prior to the pandemic and I would guess the vast majority will be relieved once they are back in employment.

Plumbthedepths

Serious bang of begrudgery on this thread now. Do people want others lining up for soup kitchens to make themselves feel better?

lastusername

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No other country made people better off on welfare than when they had been working. 500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working. It's going to be enormously difficult to get these people back into the workforce now. Any politician trying to reduce the payment to incentivise work will be branded a right wing thatcherite by the usual suspects.



Who's going to go back to a minimum wage job 20 hours a week when they can earn nearly double that from the taxpayer while not having to work? This will starve businesses of much needed workers just when they need to get back going.



The costs to the exchequer are enormous. We could build a new hospital every month with the amount of money this is costing the state. Did anyone think of this? We have Regina Doherty, mother goose of the nation herself, to thank for this mess.


The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

In 'regular' times, the number of people who don't want to work and want to just sit at home and take money from the state / taxpayer is very, very small. That is very unlikely to change just because of this.



It's not like someone who was happy and proud to work for a living before is just going to turn into a layabout after making 350 quid a week (even if it's more than what they were making).



Sure, a few might, but not to the extent you're claiming! In fact, some may be more motivated to work harder or go a different route with career or education after getting a taste of making more.

KyussB

Then why aren't the people happy for a handout (unemployment, coronavirus payments, even advocating a universal basic income), happy for a hand-up instead, with the government temporarily employing them? (in a Job Guarantee program - which right now, could be employing tens of thousands of people to make PPE, at a massive profit for the state - and helping us get our economy back at full output, faster)

Looks to me like people want handouts instead of a hand-up.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

Which economy only though? A lot of stuff is coming in from foreign businesses like amazon.

What relevance has that? It's impossible to quantify what economy a potential overpayment of government monies is going to, I just said 'the economy'.
If its not the Irish economy directly there is obviously some of it that ends up back in the Irish economy even if it's and Amazon transaction.

Fred Cryton

mohawk wrote: »

If they had introduced measures like you suggested it would of taken longer to process the claims leaving people who rely on the money to pay their bills struggling ns some mightn’t of had enough money for food.

This point keeps getting made- all they needed was their previous payslip. Would have been a week turnaround max.



Surely better to have a very slight delay in payments, rather than cost the State hundreds of millions if not billions extra.

ixoy

Since they have access to people's earnings, why was it not used? The information is there and could then have involved a cap so you couldn't receive more than your earnings.

nthclare

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Serious bang of begrudgery on this thread now. Do people want others lining up for soup kitchens to make themselves feel better?

I say **** any begrudgers, just a shower of jealous bastard's, more than likely incels or lefty nerds who still have to work from home, and their neighbours are out enjoying the sunshine, painting their house's, their latest Amazon orders littering the floor every second morning.
While the begrudging curtain twitchers seething with resentment and jealousy.

I say enjoy your 350, you've worked a lot of year's, paid taxes, more than likely your mortgage is frozen for 3 month's...so especially if you're single and not a piss head, it's now you can buy that paint do up the house.

I had 4 amazing tapestries flick through the letter box this morning I always wanted to buy them, so I dipped into my savings, and voilà...

Any man who begrudges his brethren is a prick, more than likely some nerd is reading this and I'm really pissing him off...
Well I don't want to piss you off, you signed up for your job if you're working from home then you're lucky to have a job still.

Anyone who begrudges someone who's doing ok during this period and getting their 350 and being looked after is nothing more than a wanker...

And if anyone wants to have a negative hop off my post fire away, because I don't care what people think..

As for the begrudgers read above

Plumbthedepths

nthclare wrote: »

I say **** any begrudgers, just a shower of jealous bastard's, more than likely incels or lefty nerds who still have to work from home, and their neighbours are out enjoying the sunshine, painting their house's, their latest Amazon orders littering the floor every second morning.
While the begrudging curtain twitchers seething with resentment and jealousy.

I say enjoy your 350, you've worked a lot of year's, paid taxes, more than likely your mortgage is frozen for 3 month's...so especially if you're single and not a piss head, it's now you can buy that paint do up the house.

I had 4 amazing tapestries flick through the letter box this morning I always wanted to buy them, so I dipped into my savings, and voilà...

Any man who begrudges his brethren is a prick, more than likely some nerd is reading this and I'm really pissing him off...
Well I don't want to piss you off, you signed up for your job if you're working from home then you're lucky to have a job still.

Anyone who begrudges someone who's doing ok during this period and getting their 350 and being looked after is nothing more than a wanker...

And if anyone wants to have a negative hop off my post fire away, because I don't care what people think..

As for the begrudgers read above

I'm still working away, travel to and from work everyday. Paying taxes. These posters whinging about the worker getting help, I wonder did they protest the bailouts?

FVP3

nthclare wrote: »

I say **** any begrudgers, just a shower of jealous bastard's, more than likely incels or lefty nerds who still have to work from home, and their neighbours are out enjoying the sunshine, painting their house's, their latest Amazon orders littering the floor every second morning.
While the begrudging curtain twitchers seething with resentment and jealousy.

Lefty? The people begrudging dole payments are not on the left.

It is funny though that some people who have argued that workers who are temporarily laid off should get more than the long term unemployed are now whining when they do get it. These are right wingers though.

FVP3

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm still working away, travel to and from work everyday. Paying taxes. These posters whinging about the worker getting help, I wonder did they protest the bailouts?

The thing now it to downplay the bailouts and pretend the cause of the recession was the public sector. Or something.

seamus

mohawk wrote: »

If they had introduced measures like you suggested it would of taken longer to process the claims leaving people who rely on the money to pay their bills struggling ns some mightn’t of had enough money for food.

That's it.

This was a blunt force emergency instrument. It was and is never going to be perfect. The aim was to ensure that nobody was going to go hungry in the immediate aftermath of job losses. And even if that means that some people find themselves suddenly better off than they were, at least others didn't find themselves struggling.

Due to some confusion in work about payments and entitlements, I applied for the Covid payment. I never got any notifications or contact from the DoSP, but lo and behold it arrived in my bank account anyway, even though I wasn't entitled to it.

I have since switched what I've applied for and that new application has been in a pending state for over two months.

If I'd been dependent on the latter bureacratic process to feed my kids, we'd have been in trouble weeks ago.

At the start they basically just approved all covid applications they received, to ensure that nobody was left in the cold. And that's the way it should have been done. I appreciate the argument that "sure they had everyone's last payslip". But they didn't. Revenue did. And we're talking about the public sector here. How long would it have taken to get that data across to DoSP and analysed?

The hardest hit sectors were those where people's last payslip may not represent their typical earnings and where they can't afford a delay of a week or two while analysts work out hundreds of thousands of payments.

FVP3

noodler wrote: »

Hyperbolic nonsense tbh.

We can't even isolate the right people to get the payment and you think we can then isolate what they spend it on?

The Chinese are giving people vouchers, which work in any shop but have a time limit. Everybody would use those first, before cash.

For everyone making the stimulus point. How about we increase it to 500? Great for the economy right?

Slippery slope argument.

Plumbthedepths

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm still working away, travel to and from work everyday. Paying taxes. These posters whinging about the worker getting help, I wonder did they protest the bailouts?

The bailouts are in the past. People are lucky to have the €350 emergency short term payment. We’re living through unprecedented times. God only knows how the future pans out. Everyone will have to make sacrifices.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The bailouts are in the past. People are lucky to have the €350 emergency short term payment. We’re living through unprecedented times. God only knows how the future pans out. Everyone will have to make sacrifices.

My point which you like to dismiss is many seem to have no problems with pervious bailouts when they went to the banking sector. This bailout is going to people who have families to support and bills to pay. The necessity to eat and pay bills didn't stop with the appearance of the virus. The government forced 100's off thousands out of a job and many of those will no longer have a job to go back to whenever the new normal occurs.

Geuze

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

My point which you like to dismiss is many seem to have no problems with pervious bailouts when they went to the banking sector.

Note that bank shareholders were wiped out (as is fair).

Note that holders of bank senior bonds and bank depositors were protected.

So the beneficiaries of the "bank bailout" were the many people in Ireland with deposits in Irish banks, and the many direct and indirect holders of bank senior bonds.

Tazz T

beggars_bush wrote: »

As someone not getting this payment, I'm delighted so many families are being supported in this way

Me too.

It's a soft version of helicopter money/universal income and it's preventing a complete socioeconomic collapse.

KyussB

The eye watering cost of it, and that we all know it's about to be axed, should finally show people how dangerous and fragile a universal basic income would be.

As soon as the UBI is implemented, after it has been used to replace unemployment/pension/etc. payments - it would then be axed shortly after, and the old welfare system would be gone with it - no more unemployment payments, pension payments, nor a UBI.

If the coronavirus payments - as tiny as they are compared to a UBI - are on the way out already, then people need to ditch the idea of a UBI, and look to more realistic options.