The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

nthclare

FVP3 wrote: »

Lefty? The people begrudging dole payments are not on the left.

It is funny though that some people who have argued that workers who are temporarily laid off should get more than the long term unemployed are now whining when they do get it. These are right wingers though.

I get mixed up with right wingers and left sorry for offending anyone who's right or left...

Thanks for pulling me up on that one, much appreciated

Fred Cryton

seamus wrote: »

That's it.

This was a blunt force emergency instrument. It was and is never going to be perfect. The aim was to ensure that nobody was going to go hungry in the immediate aftermath of job losses. And even if that means that some people find themselves suddenly better off than they were, at least others didn't find themselves struggling.

Sorry but can you explain to me why no other country set such a flat 350 payment to all workers including part timers?



Why is Ireland unique here?


You talk about the speed of turnaround of payment, but every country faced the same problem and funny that none came to the same conclusion as Ireland.

spurshero

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Sorry but can you explain to me why no other country set such a flat 350 payment to all workers including part timers?



Why is Ireland unique here?


You talk about the speed of turnaround of payment, but every country faced the same problem and funny that none came to the same conclusion as Ireland.

What’s your problem . Thousands lost there job including myself and for once the government stepped up to give people a bit of help. I’ve a lot of tax paid working for over 20 years . This payment will last a few months and then hopefully most of us will get back to work . 95 percent of people don’t want to be on this payment of for this virus to be here.

Plumbthedepths

spurshero wrote: »

What’s your problem . Thousands lost there job including myself and for once the government stepped up to give people a bit of help. I’ve a lot of tax paid working for over 20 years . This payment will last a few months and then hopefully most of us will get back to work . 95 percent of people don’t want to be on this payment of for this virus to be here.

He wants people in destitution, that's the only conclusion I can reach. He holds a master's in Economics don't you know. ;-)

nthclare

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm still working away, travel to and from work everyday. Paying taxes. These posters whinging about the worker getting help, I wonder did they protest the bailouts?

I'd say not they were probably bailed out themselves, I only found out earlier that some people are doing better out of this and people are annoyed at the fact everyone out of their jobs due to covid 19 are getting the 350...

The banks gave people the option to freeze their mortgages and loans etc...350 a week is good money if you were able to freeze your Bank loan for 12 week's..if a couple were getting 700 a week that would more than support a family.
No fuel costs, loans etc

I know people who were bringing home a lot of money, some maybe a grand a week and now they're down to 350 no loans or bill's and honestly they seem happier.

I met a neighbour down the lake yesterday bringing his son fishing, he hadn't a break in 15 year's like this and he said he's enjoying being able to connect with nature and his family again...

He took on a fluff job because the money's great but it's draining his soul and energy.
He's in the IT business, dealing with code's etc all day year year out and it's mind numbingly boring... his employer had to temporarily leave him off.

He felt like a zombie for years in the rat race, his wife is delighted he's off because she's getting a break too from doing a lot of things on her own.

He comutes to Athlone every day from Tubber.

I'd say a lot of people are reconsidering their lifestyle when they're at home.

This covid 19 is like a reset button for sure

Fred Cryton

spurshero wrote: »

What’s your problem . Thousands lost there job including myself and for once the government stepped up to give people a bit of help. I’ve a lot of tax paid working for over 20 years . This payment will last a few months and then hopefully most of us will get back to work . 95 percent of people don’t want to be on this payment of for this virus to be here.

You didn't answer my question about why Ireland did it uniquely differently to other countries.


Trying to pull on heartstrings won't work on me.

Plumbthedepths

Fred Cryton wrote: »

You didn't answer my question about why Ireland did it uniquely differently to other countries.


Trying to pull on heartstrings won't work on me.

Why are you asking a random person on the internet why was this particular policy taken? Surely that kind of question should be directed to those that can answer it. The people who implemented the policy.
The poster's question is valid , yours is nonsense tbh.

Xertz

What will be a massively costly mistake is if this temporary unemployment becomes structural and permanent.

We’ve 28.2% unemployment at the moment. That’s just utterly unsustainable, even for a few months.

We need to be getting at least back to 10% or so ASAP.

spurshero

Fred Cryton wrote: »

You didn't answer my question about why Ireland did it uniquely differently to other countries.


Trying to pull on heartstrings won't work on me.

It’s up to the government to answer your question but doubt it’s top of there agenda . And I certainly ain’t trying to pull on heartstrings and if I was it certainly wouldn’t be yours as not sure you have much of one judging by your attitude on this thread . No need to reply I won’t be saying anymore .

Steer55

Xertz wrote: »

We need to be getting at least back to 10% or so ASAP.

People can't go back to work until it's safe to do so. Boris was told that by the union's in UK yesterday as well.

RandomViewer

Xertz wrote: »

What will be a massively costly mistake is if this temporary unemployment becomes structural and permanent.

We’ve 28.2% unemployment at the moment. That’s just utterly unsustainable, even for a few months.

We need to be getting at least back to 10% or so ASAP.

How? World demand has dried up and won't be coming back anytime soon, most of what this country produces or services it provides are for overseas customers, they don't need anything from us at the moment.

FVP3

RandomViewer wrote: »

How? World demand has dried up and won't be coming back anytime soon, most of what this country produces or services it provides are for overseas customers, they don't need anything from us at the moment.

The world can't lockdown for a year. Germany is seeing an increase in cases but the original lockdown was intended to give the health sector a breather so that it could cope, unlike italy. Cases will increase as we resume work but the health sector should be in better shape.

KyussB

RandomViewer wrote: »

How? World demand has dried up and won't be coming back anytime soon, most of what this country produces or services it provides are for overseas customers, they don't need anything from us at the moment.

Pay all of the unemployed to mass produce PPE, for both home and abroad, and make shitloads of profit on it?

There will be incredible demand for it, for another year or two.

Xertz

How we do this is going to have to be figured out because without financing this isn’t fundable. The big issue is the ECB and EU moves and they are not moving fast enough and are fighting by and blocking things.

We can’t just go on with 30% unemployment without those backings as we will literally run out of money for everything.

There are hard limits to what we can finance without economic activity.

We could sustain 10% or 15% but 30% beyond a few months isn’t feasible at all.

Also we are not going to be able to just produce things we don’t produce. The suggestion about PPE manufacturing isn’t feasible - we don’t even have a source of materials for that stuff. You can’t just reorient an entire economy and workforce like that. It wouldn’t be possible and would cause a major skills mismatch and we can’t even produce at volume or low cost.

Getting our services economy back up and running is absolutely key to this and it needs to be done safely but we can’t just drift on for long at that level of unemployment as the ability to keep people with money in their pockets and food on the table will run out.

is_that_so

Xertz wrote: »

How we do this is going to have to be figured out because without financing this isn’t fundable. The big issue is the ECB and EU moves and they are not moving fast enough and are fighting by and blocking things.

We can’t just go on with 30% unemployment without those backings as we will literally run out of money for everything.

There are hard limits to what we can finance without economic activity.

We could sustain 10% or 15% but 30% beyond a few months isn’t feasible at all.

Also we are not going to be able to just produce things we don’t produce. The suggestion about PPE manufacturing isn’t feasible - we don’t even have a source of materials for that stuff.

Getting our services economy back up and running is absolutely key to this and it needs to be done safely but we can’t just drift on for long at that level of unemployment as the ability to keep people with money in their pockets and food on the table will run out.

That 30% is likely to fall to the midteens quickly enough as sectors reopen, certainly the end of August.

Xertz

is_that_so wrote: »

That 30% is likely to fall to the midteens quickly enough as sectors reopen, certainly the end of August.

Mid teens is just about sustainable. At 30% we would risk a downward spiral as money ran out.

ChelseaRentBoy

KyussB wrote: »

The eye watering cost of it, and that we all know it's about to be axed, should finally show people how dangerous and fragile a universal basic income would be.

As soon as the UBI is implemented, after it has been used to replace unemployment/pension/etc. payments - it would then be axed shortly after, and the old welfare system would be gone with it - no more unemployment payments, pension payments, nor a UBI.

If the coronavirus payments - as tiny as they are compared to a UBI - are on the way out already, then people need to ditch the idea of a UBI, and look to more realistic options.

UBI is inevitable in some form in the coming years. Nearly every leading economist agrees the current model is unsustainable and we need to adapt.

salmocab

KyussB wrote: »

Pay all of the unemployed to mass produce PPE, for both home and abroad, and make shitloads of profit on it?

There will be incredible demand for it, for another year or two.

It would take years to ramp something like that up, it needs machinery and skills along with capital and a supply chain.

seamus

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Sorry but can you explain to me why no other country set such a flat 350 payment to all workers including part timers?

I have no idea what other countries did or didn't do.

If you're asking why €350 was picked, it's unlikely to be a coincidence that it's close to the threshold where you start to incur income tax. I'm sure there's a calculation somewhere that justifies both.

You talk about the speed of turnaround of payment, but every country faced the same problem and funny that none came to the same conclusion as Ireland.

That assumes that every country's civil service works in exactly the same way and what works in another country will work here.

I would rather it had been done whatever way necessary than sitting and watching and waiting to see what everyone else did. It's not a huge cost in the long-term.

Tea drinker

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Serious bang of begrudgery on this thread now. Do people want others lining up for soup kitchens to make themselves feel better?

Serious bang of silliness off this thread, do people want hospitals closed as we will be too indebted and economically broke to pay for them?
Hyperbole? No, the less severe economic shock 2009 ish the health service admit that hospital outcomes were worse. Also a large rise in suicides, not sure how we are comparing there so far.

Lockdown was right, paying people was right, same as ceasing (gradually) the lockdown and ceasing those payments is right. The payments have to cease ASAP.
Or we're fecked anyway.

CinemaGuy45

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Serious bang of begrudgery on this thread now. Do people want others lining up for soup kitchens to make themselves feel better?

It would be a very long line if they had to maintain the 2 metre distance.:D

Plumbthedepths

Tea drinker wrote: »

Serious bang of silliness off this thread, do people want hospitals closed as we will be too indebted and economically broke to pay for them?
Hyperbole? No, the less severe economic shock 2009 ish the health service admit that hospital outcomes were worse. Also a large rise in suicides, not sure how we are comparing there so far.

Lockdown was right, paying people was right, same as ceasing (gradually) the lockdown and ceasing those payments is right. The payments have to cease ASAP.
Or we're fecked anyway.

Has anyone on this thread suggested the Covid payment should last indefinitely?
I suspect the majority that are on the payment would like to get back to work.
Btw I totally agree with the suggestion there will be less funding for services due to this crisis. I lost several friends to suicide during the last financial shock. I expect this time to be worse.

RandomViewer

KyussB wrote: »

Pay all of the unemployed to mass produce PPE, for both home and abroad, and make shitloads of profit on it?

There will be incredible demand for it, for another year or two.

Materials cost money, forced labour would produce poor quality stuff that couldn't be used, all you'd be doing is making a lot of crap that nobody wants and lots of pissed of people who paid lots of PRSI being pushed into forced Labour. Only good thing is that FG /FF would never darken anyone's door again

Xertz

It’s about cost:benefit and balancing risks.

If we are too quick to throw caution to the wind and go back to normality in a chaotic way, then we risk a second wave and a second lockdown carries big economic risks.

On the other side of it, if we are too risk averse and stay out of circulation for too long, we risk excessive economic damage.

I would tend to ignore the USA and UK as both are being driven by a phase of unusually chaotic politics and populist cult of personality type leadership. That’s not how either of them have historically worked and it’s best not to assume what they’re doing is a particularly good idea.

However, we still need to be level headed about this and deal with the reality that we need to adapt and move forward and we need to be doing that in like with similar European countries. However, I would also caution against just assuming that some countries are somehow suddenly more competent than they have ever been before in terms of policy making. Some of their openings may ultimately be a disaster too and also some of the online and media coverage is misinterpreting (often deliberately on forums) how these openings are working. For example, you’d get the impression from some posters that it’s business as usual in Spain. It absolutely is not and couldn’t be further from the truth.

The lockdowns were also far, far more severe and enforced more aggressively. Ireland has largely been doing its usual getting everyone on board approach, rather than heavy policing.

Many countries are also following similar gated step type plans to ours, they just haven’t produced very long term maps or at least commentary here is unaware of them. The August/Sept date for “new normal” with progressive steps through the summer seems in line with most places in Europe from what I can see.

The support payments are doable for a while, but there’s a limit to it at which point we end up problems with sustainability. That’s why we need to get this return to happen smoothly and safely and without populist stuff like prioritising opening of high risk things like say nightclubs.

If we get this wrong, we could be on a rinse and repeat cycle of lockdowns and declining economics.

smelly sock

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No other country made people better off on welfare than when they had been working. 500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working. It's going to be enormously difficult to get these people back into the workforce now. Any politician trying to reduce the payment to incentivise work will be branded a right wing thatcherite by the usual suspects.



Who's going to go back to a minimum wage job 20 hours a week when they can earn nearly double that from the taxpayer while not having to work? This will starve businesses of much needed workers just when they need to get back going.



The costs to the exchequer are enormous. We could build a new hospital every month with the amount of money this is costing the state. Did anyone think of this? We have Regina Doherty, mother goose of the nation herself, to thank for this mess.


The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

It was a blunt instrument to keep people off the streets and out of work. Nothing more , nothing less.

boring accountant

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

My point which you like to dismiss is many seem to have no problems with pervious bailouts when they went to the banking sector. This bailout is going to people who have families to support and bills to pay. The necessity to eat and pay bills didn't stop with the appearance of the virus. The government forced 100's off thousands out of a job and many of those will no longer have a job to go back to whenever the new normal occurs.

I don’t know anyone who thinks the bank bailouts are okay, on this thread or anywhere else for that matter.

KyussB

Xertz wrote: »

...
Also we are not going to be able to just produce things we don’t produce. The suggestion about PPE manufacturing isn’t feasible - we don’t even have a source of materials for that stuff. You can’t just reorient an entire economy and workforce like that. It wouldn’t be possible and would cause a major skills mismatch and we can’t even produce at volume or low cost.

Getting our services economy back up and running is absolutely key to this and it needs to be done safely but we can’t just drift on for long at that level of unemployment as the ability to keep people with money in their pockets and food on the table will run out.

We're not going to the fucking moon - we need to produce masks/PPE.

The unemployed, not the entire economy - stop making up nonsense that wasn't said.

KyussB

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

UBI is inevitable in some form in the coming years. Nearly every leading economist agrees the current model is unsustainable and we need to adapt.

Nearly every leading economist is against a UBI.

€350 a week UBI costs €90 billion a year. We can't even fund €350 a week coronavirus payments, they are already about to be cut.

We urgntly need to mass produce PPE - and the entire state can make a profit from that, by paying the unemployed a living wage to do it.

PopePalpatine

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

It would be a very long line if they had to maintain the 2 metre distance.:D

You need to think outside the box, the virus can ravage those surplus soup kitchen scroungers.

KyussB

salmocab wrote: »

It would take years to ramp something like that up, it needs machinery and skills along with capital and a supply chain.

That's nonsense, it can already be done right now by hand without any industrial machinery - and we can ramp up a proper industrial mass manufacturing line within months.

Basic PPE is not rocket science, and it's in incredibly high demand. You don't need the ultimate most high tech PPE for general public use - only for hospitals.