The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

Tea drinker

Tomrota wrote: »

UBI would be less than the COVID payment, it would be whatever the current poverty line is. According to EAPN, “The the 60% at risk of poverty threshold in 2017 was €12,521. (or €239.95 per week).”

Again you’re taking gross cost and not net costs of UBI. The majority of people would be net contributors to the payment, and the small minority would be net beneficiaries with the hopes of becoming a net contributor one day. It would remove the need for such a complex welfare system, college grant system, etc. It wouldn’t hinder work ethic or participation in the labour force. However, it does eradicate poverty overnight. It also allows people breathing space and the mental bandwidth to deal with the stresses of life. If someone lost their job unexpectedly or if someone needed to take a year out to study? Plus all the mental health, crime, health benefits of it. We are living in this society together, I would want everyone to be the best person they can be and we should, as a society, want that for everyone. I don’t think people realise how much talent and drive to work there is in underprivileged communities but no means, through grants or social welfare.

But sure... isn't that the dole today?
The problems in underprivileged areas are typically mental health problems, with drug abuse anti social behaviours as a result of this. Not every workplace is geared to helping or employing mentally ill people. For the people with the intelligence to be trained in a skill or arts there should be gateways for this. The likes of FAS in the past really helped but also didn't help the perennial FAS course attendee. 3rd level education is important for these areas too. Unfortunately the last time we had helicopter money it was for the banks and us dopes on PAYE, plebs that we are, simply aren't earning enough to pay off this debt, pay to run the country with a decent health service and free education for those that deserve it.

First investment needs to be in 2 places, prison for those that are spreading crime and dehumanising the people they come in contact with, and a massive moonshot investment in mental health. The mental health investment would at least partially pay for itself through less crime and more productivity.
Education grants later.

RandomViewer

Geuze wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Paddy_Mc_Kee/status/1050095981834973191/photo/1

Many families on welfare receive many tens of thousands.

My relations received 100,000 in uni fees and grants.

Anyones family on less than 50 k qualifies for third level grant, some counties have 90% qualification, not half as much money out there as you'd like to let on, I suspect that you have a lot less than you are claiming as well

RandomViewer

KyussB wrote: »

Look stop playing childish games of pretending I said something else - I said very clearly that it's a temporary job program, not a permanent one - so stop making shit up.

If you are employed directly by the government it will have to be a job for life, take it up with Siptu if you think different

RandomViewer

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I would imagine that the majority of the people who are getting 350 a week were earning more than that when they were working so I'll go out on a limb here and guess that they will be only too glad to go back to work for more money.


I'll go out on another limb and assume that those who are "happy to sit on their arses doing sweet FA" for 350 a week might not have the option when the payment is stopped after the economy opens up again. Did that ever cross your fcuking mind?

Sadly quite a percentage of the jobs lost won't be coming back, lots of businesses won't survive this ,world demand will be on the floor for quite a while. Fred and his ilk are kite flying to see if they can sway people's attitudes to the payment.

KyussB

Tomrota wrote: »

UBI would be less than the COVID payment, it would be whatever the current poverty line is. According to EAPN, “The the 60% at risk of poverty threshold in 2017 was €12,521. (or €239.95 per week).”

Again you’re taking gross cost and not net costs of UBI. The majority of people would be net contributors to the payment, and the small minority would be net beneficiaries with the hopes of becoming a net contributor one day. It would remove the need for such a complex welfare system, college grant system, etc. It wouldn’t hinder work ethic or participation in the labour force. However, it does eradicate poverty overnight. It also allows people breathing space and the mental bandwidth to deal with the stresses of life. If someone lost their job unexpectedly or if someone needed to take a year out to study? Plus all the mental health, crime, health benefits of it. We are living in this society together, I would want everyone to be the best person they can be and we should, as a society, want that for everyone. I don’t think people realise how much talent and drive to work there is in underprivileged communities but no means, through grants or social welfare.

You're delibrately saying the loud parts quiet, and the quiet parts loud.

You say €12,521 per person, not €61 billion (or a bank bailout) Every. Year. - you say "The majority of people would be net contributors to the payment", not "there will be a gigantic increase in taxes for the average person, and a Flat Tax system will be introduced, with a permanent end to Progressive Taxation - even after the UBI is slashed due to austerity" - you say "It would remove the need for such a complex welfare system", not "Unemployment payments, pension payments, and the entire welfare system will be permanently ended - to never return when the UBI is slashed due to austerity".


The UBI is intentionally designed to be ultra-fragile, so that it can be wiped out as soon as a big enough economic crisis hits. It's a trojan horse policy.

The UBI's express intention, is to replace the ultra-strong progressive policies of unemployment payments, pensions, the welfare state in general, and progressive taxation - things which are ultra-strong and impossible to repeal - and replace them with something that is ultra-fragile and easy to repeal.

KyussB

RandomViewer wrote: »

If you are employed directly by the government it will have to be a job for life, take it up with Siptu if you think different

That's making up random tabloid-like nonsense, a temporary job program is temporary.

Lollipop95

How long are these payments set to continue for at the current rate?

ShatterAlan

RandomViewer wrote: »

Sadly quite a percentage of the jobs lost won't be coming back, lots of businesses won't survive this ,world demand will be on the floor for quite a while. Fred and his ilk are kite flying to see if they can sway people's attitudes to the payment.

If the jobs don't come back that's hardly the fault of the people who lost them. We can't just kick these people to the curb.



I have a sneaking feeling that the covid episode could be the catalyst for introducing a universal income.

Fred Cryton

RandomViewer wrote: »

Sadly quite a percentage of the jobs lost won't be coming back, lots of businesses won't survive this ,world demand will be on the floor for quite a while. Fred and his ilk are kite flying to see if they can sway people's attitudes to the payment.

Right but you and your ilk will want to keep the 350 payment going even if the job itself becomes a permanent victim of the crisis. You want the 350 to be the new dole. At least admit it.

Fred Cryton

ShatterAlan wrote: »

If the jobs don't come back that's hardly the fault of the people who lost them. We can't just kick these people to the curb.



I have a sneaking feeling that the covid episode could be the catalyst for introducing a universal income.

We can give them 200, like we've always done for those not in employment.

Danzy

Fred Cryton wrote: »

We can give them 200, like we've always done for those not in employment.

You probably haven't worked much in life but the objective of the payment is to maintain employment, maintain business confidence, consumer confidence, keep people from shutting their pocket completely and long term.

That is why the payment is there, different perspectives from the Gov't and business to you.

I wonder is it that you were always on the basic dole and feel you are missing out now.

Danzy

Lollipop95 wrote: »

How long are these payments set to continue for at the current rate?

Until the crisis passes and the massive damage of not having payment like this is passed.

The Govt will view the data and see that this option is the cheapest and most effective.

RandomViewer

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Right but you and your ilk will want to keep the 350 payment going even if the job itself becomes a permanent victim of the crisis. You want the 350 to be the new dole. At least admit it.

I'm on the job subsidy, 2 weeks work, 2 weeks off, I'm down €250 a week those weeks, that's why I don't get your anger at €350, it's a loss for nearly everyone with the possible exception of yourself, it's not even minimum wage .

Antares35

RandomViewer wrote: »

I'm on the job subsidy, 2 weeks work, 2 weeks off, I'm down €250 a week those weeks, that's why I don't get your anger at €350, it's a loss for nearly everyone with the possible exception of yourself, it's not even minimum wage .

To clarify, if you're "down 250" the weeks you get the subsidy, that means you're normal rate is 600 for a week? Are you not still coming out with 1900 for two weeks work? Perhaps I am confused.

LuasSimon

I see pascal Donoghue in an interview this morning saying the cost off what they’ll need to borrow is growing week on week . The covid payment will continue but the AMOUNT could change ??
What’ll this look like 300 , 275 ?? Will part timers be excluded ? Entitled to half it ??

LuasSimon

LuasSimon wrote: »

I see pascal Donoghue in an interview this morning saying the cost off what they’ll need to borrow is growing week on week . The covid payment will continue but the AMOUNT could change ??
What’ll this look like 300 , 275 ?? Will part timers be excluded ? Entitled to half it ??

It was brought in as an emergency measure and was always to be reviewed.

rovers_runner

The kite flying has started early with this one.
Three weeks out and we are being told it's up for discussion now after only being told a couple of weeks back it would taper off as your industry opened.....

We have to face it that we are crippled financially as a state and can't afford this any longer.

Anyone left in work on an average income will be taxed heavily to pay for this also.

I hope the students who worked part time for €80 a week are enjoying this fraud while it lasts as it's going to come back to bite the rest of us in the arse.

johnmc2020

rovers_runner wrote: »

The kite flying has started early with this one.
I hope the students who worked part time for €80 a week are enjoying this fraud while it lasts as it's going to come back to bite the rest of us in the arse.

To be fair, the majority of those students will be paying for this through their own taxes for a long time to come.

I think it was fairer to give it to them than to not, especially as those who have to work for €80/€100 a week are often the ones who do so out of absolute necessity - whilst I know this doesn't mean it applies to the whole country a lot of the students working who I know are those who just about miss out on the grant and their parents aren't in a position to fully support them financially.

So I for one, as a tax payer, don't feel one bit hard done by that students are eligible for the pandemic unemployment payment. They'll be paying for the cost of it for long enough.

nthclare

rovers_runner wrote: »

The kite flying has started early with this one.
Three weeks out and we are being told it's up for discussion now after only being told a couple of weeks back it would taper off as your industry opened.....

We have to face it that we are crippled financially as a state and can't afford this any longer.

Anyone left in work on an average income will be taxed heavily to pay for this also.

I hope the students who worked part time for €80 a week are enjoying this fraud while it lasts as it's going to come back to bite the rest of us in the arse.

Oh I'd say they're enjoying it alright, Amazon have never been so busy a postman told me.

A monumental **** up on behalf of the government, ok some people could do with the 350 as they were probably used to taking home 780 a week now they've lost their jobs and for the foreseeable future they'll be on the covid payment, but they're going to have to reassess the situation....

A lot of this covid money is being pissed down the toilet too, so it's the brewers who ate getting the most out of this.

jrosen

rovers_runner wrote: »

The kite flying has started early with this one.
Three weeks out and we are being told it's up for discussion now after only being told a couple of weeks back it would taper off as your industry opened.....

We have to face it that we are crippled financially as a state and can't afford this any longer.

Anyone left in work on an average income will be taxed heavily to pay for this also.

I hope the students who worked part time for €80 a week are enjoying this fraud while it lasts as it's going to come back to bite the rest of us in the arse.

Its not fraud. They applied for the covid payment like everyone else when they lost their job. The government could have implemented a strategy to allow for scaled payments but they didnt. If your paying into the pot then you are as entitled as anyone else to apply for supports when needed.

rovers_runner

jrosen wrote: »

Its not fraud. They applied for the covid payment like everyone else when they lost their job. The government could have implemented a strategy to allow for scaled payments but they didnt. If your paying into the pot then you are as entitled as anyone else to apply for supports when needed.

So you'd have no problem taking €350 a week from the state if when the most you may have earned in your young life a as part time worker was maybe €80 - €100?

Fred Cryton

johnmc2020 wrote: »

To be fair, the majority of those students will be paying for this through their own taxes for a long time to come.

I think it was fairer to give it to them than to not, especially as those who have to work for €80/€100 a week are often the ones who do so out of absolute necessity - whilst I know this doesn't mean it applies to the whole country a lot of the students working who I know are those who just about miss out on the grant and their parents aren't in a position to fully support them financially.

So I for one, as a tax payer, don't feel one bit hard done by that students are eligible for the pandemic unemployment payment. They'll be paying for the cost of it for long enough.

How is it possibly "fair" to give 350 euro per week of taxpayer money to people who had been earning 80 quid part time pre crisis? Your notion of fairness needs a serious re-evaluation.

zell12

It will go down to currrent jobseeker rates of e203pw

jrosen

rovers_runner wrote: »

So you'd have no problem taking €350 a week from the state if when the most you may have earned in your young life a as part time worker was maybe €80 - €100?

Your saying its fraud, im saying your are incorrect. It is not fraud. Anyone who lost their job because of covid was entitled to sign on for the emergency payment.
The state failed to implement a payment scale.

johnmc2020

Fred Cryton wrote: »

How is it possibly "fair" to give 350 euro per week of taxpayer money to people who had been earning 80 quid part time pre crisis? Your notion of fairness needs a serious re-evaluation.

I said it's "fairer" than giving them nothing - which I think it is.

Obviously the fairest would be giving them what they had been earning previously but I'm told that was not possibly given the speed at which the scheme needed to be implemented.

Antares35

Fred Cryton wrote: »

How is it possibly "fair" to give 350 euro per week of taxpayer money to people who had been earning 80 quid part time pre crisis? Your notion of fairness needs a serious re-evaluation.

We give 200 a week to some people who have not or will not ever work.

rovers_runner

rovers_runner wrote: »

So you'd have no problem taking €350 a week from the state if when the most you may have earned in your young life a as part time worker was maybe €80 - €100?

How many fall into this bracket?

nthclare

jrosen wrote: »

Your saying its fraud, im saying your are incorrect. It is not fraud. Anyone who lost their job because of covid was entitled to sign on for the emergency payment.
The state failed to implement a payment scale.

That's the state for you, it's the same in the public sector...

Do people not realize a lot of politicians and senior civil servants have children in good jobs who would have went from 700 euro a week to almost 200.

No way was daddy's girl or boy going to be left stranded on the 200 and a bit a week so they probably said to get this in we'll rush it through...

I never thought I'd envisage having to stay at home for week's on end on 350 a week, I appreciate it and bought art and craft materials and didn't piss it away ðŸ‘

jayzee

Does anyone have a breakdown on the composition of the workers/sectors who are out of work and on "de covid".

From Monday we would expect to see up to 150,000 construction workers coming off it, add in the garden centre workers and other outdoor occupations and that might take it to 200k dropping off it.

We know hotel, catering and bar staff are long termers - how many are they.

I think these sectoral stats would be useful.

nthclare

nthclare wrote: »

That's the state for you, it's the same in the public sector...

Do people not realize a lot of politicians and senior civil servants have children in good jobs who would have went from 700 euro a week to almost 200.

No way was daddy's girl or boy going to be left stranded on the 200 and a bit a week so they probably said to get this in we'll rush it through...

I never thought I'd envisage having to stay at home for week's on end on 350 a week, I appreciate it and bought art and craft materials and didn't piss it away ðŸ‘

What a begrudging post.

It’s not weeks on end. It’s a short term measure which will be reviewed.

Hundreds of people have lost their jobs, not just temporarily. Debenhams, AirBnB, Uber, to name a few. Many small businesses will never reopen. Yet, you are griping about a short term support payment!