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The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

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    #662
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Or maybe there's something wrong with minimum paid jobs!


    No nothing wrong with them, if the workers were worth more in the market they would be able to command a higher wage. But they can't because they aren't.


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    #663
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,321 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Fred Cryton wrote:
    No nothing wrong with them, if the workers were worth more in the market they would be able to command a higher wage. But they can't because they aren't.


    Ah the market bollocks, the market doesn't give a ****e about humans, it's laws and rules are all made up by humans who couldn't give a ****e about other humans


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    #664
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Ah the market bollocks, the market doesn't give a ****e about humans, it's laws and rules are all made up by humans who couldn't give a ****e about other humans


    Correct, no-one cares about you either.



    It's up to the workers to upskill and increase their value in the market.


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    #665
    ZeroThreat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    No nothing wrong with them, if the workers were worth more in the market they would be able to command a higher wage. But they can't because they aren't.

    Exactly, there's a huge % of the population that are basically worthless. We'd probably get some value by harvesting the younger and healthier ones for their spare parts (organs).

    Ultimate human worth, as Fred said, is merely a financial calculation.

    hmmm which reminds me, I must read The Fountainhead again.


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    #666
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,321 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Fred Cryton wrote:
    It's up to the workers to upskill and increase their value in the market.


    We don't live in an ideal world, not everyone has the abilities to do this, our educational and training systems fail to meet the needs of many, leading many into the world of precarious, low paid employment, sometimes indefinitely, the ideology of the market is not an absolute one, it has inefficiencies, and fails from time to time


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    #667
    Sweet.Science
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Correct, no-one cares about you either.



    It's up to the workers to upskill and increase their value in the market.


    Hmm . I think this pandemic has showed that your job isnt really that important compared to low skilled workers

    And you are finding it hard to accept.


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    #668
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    We don't live in an ideal world, not everyone has the abilities to do this, our educational and training systems fail to meet the needs of many, leading many into the world of precarious, low paid employment, sometimes indefinitely, the ideology of the market is not an absolute one, it has inefficiencies, and fails from time to time


    Certainly no-one has the incentive to do this if they're handed 350 a week by the taxpayer. Ultimately the workers themselves will be harmed if they don't get back working soon. Their value will actually fall in the market.


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    #669
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,321 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Fred Cryton wrote:
    Certainly no-one has the incentive to do this if they're handed 350 a week by the taxpayer. Ultimately the workers themselves will be harmed if they don't get back working soon. Their value will actually fall in the market.


    Jesus Christ, you really have been brainwashed by all this neoclassical the market nonsense, the abilities of the market is a myth, made up by humans, we re experiencing a catastrophic supply and demand shock, we re more than likely gonna see the usual human behaviour is such situations such as increased saving. We re currently seeing a collapse in the velocity in the money supply, one of the best ways of dealing with this is increasing the supply of money, even trump gets this!


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    #670
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    The rich want to categorize most jobs as minimum wage these days so they can make more and more money and go ahead of the person next to them on some rich list.

    We are heading the way of America where you will have a Beverly hills area in each city and then a tent city in another area . The Rich are getting richer and the vast majority are existing living paycheck to paycheck.


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    #671
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    350 a week is equivalent to 35 hours of labour at minimum wage. Pretty much a full weeks work for nothing.

    Point me to another country which gave such a generous flat payment to those at the lower end of the income scale.

    Always ask yourself why are we doing things differently.


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    #672
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    The rich want to categorize most jobs as minimum wage these days so they can make more and more money and go ahead of the person next to them on some rich list.

    6.4% of employees are on the NMW or less.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lfsnmw/lfsnationalminimumwageestimatesq42019/


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    #673
    Banana Republic 1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    I think these two clips some up this thread.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Kum8OUTuk

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hcxs-CH4kG0


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    #674
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,321 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    350 a week is equivalent to 35 hours of labour at minimum wage. Pretty much a full weeks work for nothing.

    Point me to another country which gave such a generous flat payment to those at the lower end of the income scale.

    Always ask yourself why are we doing things differently.

    ...because doing the same thing....


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    #675
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,448 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    350 a week is equivalent to 35 hours of labour at minimum wage. Pretty much a full weeks work for nothing.

    Point me to another country which gave such a generous flat payment to those at the lower end of the income scale.

    Always ask yourself why are we doing things differently.

    Is it a jealousy or a begrudging thing going on in this thread?


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    #676
    callaway92
    Registered Users Posts: 14,613 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    I sincerely hope DSP and revenue pursue anyone who has fraudulently claimed the 350 through the courts.

    350 was always “ripe” for fraud. It’s too high.

    That's just not gonna happen.

    The payment was so sudden that people applied and people can too easily play dumb here with how easy it is to begin receiving it.

    In reality we all know there could've been more things involved (comms from employer etc)

    When it stops it'll stop. People won't be chased up


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    #677
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    Sweet.Science wrote: »
    Hmm . I think this pandemic has showed that your job isnt really that important compared to low skilled workers

    And you are finding it hard to accept.
    Does it mean I need to pay my lawnmower robot 10 euro per hour? its work is important to me!


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    #678
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    I’m getting it and I’m delighted with it. When I was making good money I paid a fortune in taxes, now I’m self-employee and having lost a proportion of my income to Covid 19, I’m glad to be getting what I consider a rebate.

    My aunt told me several of her son’s friends who are ages 18-19 are getting it because they lost jobs in pubs where they were doing 1 or 2 shifts a week... now that’s a bit ridiculous.


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    #679
    Jizique
    Registered Users Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭Jizique


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I’m getting it and I’m delighted with it. When I was making good money I paid a fortune in taxes, now I’m self-employee and having lost a proportion of my income to Covid 19, I’m glad to be getting what I consider a rebate.

    My aunt told me several of her son’s friends who are ages 18-19 are getting it because they lost jobs in pubs where they were doing 1 or 2 shifts a week... now that’s a bit ridiculous.

    IT is crazy - and they will still vote SF when they get a chance


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    #680
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,321 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Jizique wrote: »
    IT is crazy - and they will still vote SF when they get a chance

    as appose to people who will still vote ffg


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    #681
    snowgal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭snowgal


    While I agree it is madness that some employees who were getting 40 odd a week are now getting 350, my god if that we me when I was student, Id have been delighted! but this is the decision of our government, its not really any of these working peoples problems. Of course theyll take advantage if theyre given the chance. The one thing I will say, it is nice for ONCE to see something (I know its only short term and we'll pay it back blah blah) good coming from Government . First time in my life I can say they tried to actually look after the people for once. The big fear though, is that minimum wage employees wont go back to their €40 a week job until this payment is cancelled. So I do think at this stage they should adjust the payment to reflect whether employees are casual, full time etc.


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    #682
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    snowgal wrote: »
    While I agree it is madness that some employees who were getting 40 odd a week are now getting 350, my god if that we me when I was student, Id have been delighted! but this is the decision of our government, its not really any of these working peoples problems. Of course theyll take advantage if theyre given the chance. The one thing I will say, it is nice for ONCE to see something (I know its only short term and we'll pay it back blah blah) good coming from Government . First time in my life I can say they tried to actually look after the people for once. The big fear though, is that minimum wage employees wont go back to their €40 a week job until this payment is cancelled. So I do think at this stage they should adjust the payment to reflect whether employees are casual, full time etc.

    They did something good for low paid/part time workers and something bad for high earners who lost their jobs due to the government restrictions:
    the people used to get high wages and paid high PAYE & PRSI contributions but now they are down to 350 a week.


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    #683
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,448 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    na1 wrote: »
    They did something good for low paid/part time workers and something bad for high earners who lost their jobs due to the government restrictions:
    the people used to get high wages and paid high PAYE & PRSI contributions but now they are down to 350 a week.

    How is the government giving workers €350 a week a bad thing? Would they rather have got €200 or whatever the normal dole payment is?


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    #684
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    RocketRaccoon wrote: »
    How is the government giving workers €350 a week a bad thing? Would they rather have got €200 or whatever the normal dole payment is?


    Because someone has to pay for it. The money doesn't fall out of the sky. Were you born yesterday? In addition, the payment acts as a dis-incentive to work, even for full time employees many of whom were earning around this or slightly above.



    €4.5bn is the cost of income support for these 12 weeks alone. We could have built 2 national childrens hospitals for that cost.



    Of course they should be on €200 if not working. As usual. And by the way, 200 a week as a dole payment is very generous by itself but that's for another discussion.


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    #685
    landofthetree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    This is the future in Ireland. Its what we want.

    FG increased public spending by 13billion since 2016.

    The public didnt think it was enough and voted for parties who want to spend even more.

    High welfare and an ever increasing national debt is our future.


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    #686
    landofthetree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    Jizique wrote: »
    IT is crazy - and they will still vote SF when they get a chance

    Why wouldn't they?

    SF want to continue the payment till next Dec even if the crisis ends in Sep,


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    #687
    RocketRaccoon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,448 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Because someone has to pay for it. The money doesn't fall out of the sky. Were you born yesterday? In addition, the payment acts as a dis-incentive to work, even for full time employees many of whom were earning around this or slightly above.



    €4.5bn is the cost of income support for these 12 weeks alone. We could have built 2 national childrens hospitals for that cost.



    Of course they should be on €200 if not working. As usual. And by the way, 200 a week as a dole payment is very generous by itself but that's for another discussion.

    You're quite clearly jealous or something of the people in receipt of this payment. It's quite odd.


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    #688
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,321 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Because someone has to pay for it. The money doesn't fall out of the sky. Were you born yesterday? In addition, the payment acts as a dis-incentive to work, even for full time employees many of whom were earning around this or slightly above.



    €4.5bn is the cost of income support for these 12 weeks alone. We could have built 2 national childrens hospitals for that cost.



    Of course they should be on €200 if not working. As usual. And by the way, 200 a week as a dole payment is very generous by itself but that's for another discussion.

    once again, the ecb is providing loans at record low rates, some of which are negative, of course these principles will need to be repaid in time, but can be rolled over for a very long time, without any severe consequences, this is common practice.

    have you ever actually tried to survive on 200 euro a week? if the government didnt increase this money, we d have an increase in destabilization of the financial sectors due to the increase in loan defaults and none preforming loans, and we all know what happens then!


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    #689
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    Is there many wealthy individuals using the Covid Payment like the UK where Billionaires like Richard Branson are tapping the Furlough scheme rather than pay anything out of their very deep pockets .

    Larry Goodman to be fair isnt seen as all his minimum wage meat slaves are working till they drop but other Billionaires who are Tax Exiles like Denis O Brien and JP Mcmanus , are they getting the Irish Government to pay their staff as opposed to the Maltese or Swiss Government where they pay their reduced tax amounts ?


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    #690
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    once again, the ecb is providing loans at record low rates, some of which are negative, of course these principles will need to be repaid in time, but can be rolled over for a very long time, without any severe consequences, this is common practice.

    have you ever actually tried to survive on 200 euro a week? if the government didnt increase this money, we d have an increase in destabilization of the financial sectors due to the increase in loan defaults and none preforming loans, and we all know what happens then!


    Why not give everyone 10,000 euro a week then. if money can just be printed and doesn't really have to be paid back. Just trying to make your mind think this through to its logical conclusion.


    200 euro a week is more than twice the dole in the UK. But this discussion is not about the dole.


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    #691
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Why not give everyone 10,000 euro a week then. if money can just be printed and doesn't really have to be paid back. Just trying to make your mind think this through to its logical conclusion.


    200 euro a week is more than twice the dole in the UK. But this discussion is not about the dole.

    ... wonder if that’s why so many in the UK religion on food banks...


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