The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

KyussB

How about...the government hires the people on the €350 payment past June 8th, and gets them to do 28 hours of work a week (a living wage at that rate of payment) - to e.g. mass produce PPE for the country, or practically any other useful type of work that urgently needs public funding - which would mean that these people are contributing to the economy, exactly as if they were employed by the private sector - creating a win-win situation for everyone, and allowing us to permanently keep these payments as a social support (since the work done by the unemployed, pretty much pays off all the costs, indirectly).

Could call it...a Job Guarantee...practically ending unemployment, permanently.

Topgear on Dave

Press gang them into work for their social welfare entitlement. There'd be war ! :pac:

splashuum

Shocking enough statistic. How have the government allowed this to happen?
Its complete mismanagement of taxpayers funds. Part time workers should not be benefiting from the crisis. Gov is spending approx 1/4 of a BILLION weekly on PUP alone. Today Paul Murphy TD along with many others have called for the 350 payment to be the minimum welfare payment going forward. Do people not realise this would bankrupt the country.

https://www.todayfm.com/news/almost-40-people-covid-payment-earning-less-e300-week-1018529

Pauliedragon

Apparantly there's people already on the dole who applied and got it according to someone on the radio down here in cork. Dole plus covid payment 550 a week thank you very much. If that's true this system needs to be seriously looked at.

Tefral

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Apparantly there's people already on the dole who applied and got it according to someone on the radio down here in cork. Dole plus covid payment 550 a week thank you very much. If that's true this system needs to be seriously looked at.

Surely they are going to have social welfare chase this back?

splashuum

Tefral wrote: »

Surely they are going to have social welfare chase this back?

I've heard similar stories to Paulie. Doesn't appear to be a priority of the government.

KyussB

Just let them keep their unemployment payments, at the standard unemployment rate rather than coronavirus payment rate - nobody has to work in the JG, who doesn't want to.

Wibbs

I know three people who get this payment who have continued to work "off the books", so that's in play too. IMHO they should reduce it to the basic social welfare payments and kick off means testing.

Conte..

Is only been there 8 weeks or so

Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things right now

I'd say anyone on dole will have it clawed back later

LuckyLloyd

It’s an emergency stimulus package designed to give money directly to the citizenry. To assuage any potential issues with civil disobedience or otherwise due to worry or desperation; and to maintain some level of initial demand in the economy as restrictions are lifted.

It’s supposed to be easy to get. It’s supposed to be in excess of any welfare payment previously provided. It’s supposed to disincentivize people from working lower paid jobs for a period.

I can’t quite work out whether the majority of those complaining about this are wilfully ignorant and pearl clutching out of political bias; or are just duped by the age old ‘divide and conquer’ narratives around welfare. Either way, this is just another dole thread on boards. Ho hum.

Moghead

Would you rather have paid people €350 a week or paid them less and had lots of people doing nixers to try and make ends meet.

I know some people have been doing nixers but many more may have been forced to try and make more money during the shutdown.

Conall Cernach

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Apparantly there's people already on the dole who applied and got it according to someone on the radio down here in cork. Dole plus covid payment 550 a week thank you very much. If that's true this system needs to be seriously looked at.

They will refuse you the COVID payment if you have a jobseekers claim open with Welfare. You can still get it with a carers payment so long as you were working as well.

Kermit.de.frog

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Apparantly there's people already on the dole who applied and got it according to someone on the radio down here in cork. Dole plus covid payment 550 a week thank you very much. If that's true this system needs to be seriously looked at.

I'd find that hard to believe given you'd already be on the system if in receipt of social welfare already.

Wibbs

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I can’t quite work out whether the majority of those complaining about this are wilfully ignorant and pearl clutching out of political bias; or are just duped by the age old ‘divide and conquer’ narratives around welfare. Either way, this is just another dole thread on boards. Ho hum.

There's that aspect too alright.

Kermit.de.frog

Pauliedragon wrote: »

Apparantly there's people already on the dole who applied and got it according to someone on the radio down here in cork. Dole plus covid payment 550 a week thank you very much. If that's true this system needs to be seriously looked at.

According to 'someone on the radio down in Cork'

Therefore must be true.

osarusan

The payment is necessary, and not even all that generous compared to some other countries.

Exploitation of it by chancers is inevitable, but the remedy for that is to go after those who abuse it. The real issue is that the govt (or next govt, or any govt) is unlikely to actually do that, if existing attitudes to exploitation of the SW system is any indication.

jackofalltrades

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It’s an emergency stimulus package designed to give money directly to the citizenry. To assuage any potential issues with civil disobedience or otherwise due to worry or desperation; and to maintain some level of initial demand in the economy as restrictions are lifted.

It’s supposed to be easy to get. It’s supposed to be in excess of any welfare payment previously provided. It’s supposed to disincentivize people from working lower paid jobs for a period.

I can’t quite work out whether the majority of those complaining about this are wilfully ignorant and pearl clutching out of political bias; or are just duped by the age old ‘divide and conquer’ narratives around welfare. Either way, this is just another dole thread on boards. Ho hum.

Did you actually fully read the OP?
This isn't just "another dole thread on boards".
It's pointing out the ridiculous situation where we're paying people more on social welfare than they were getting when they were working.
A situation which is going to cost us a fortune and should have been fixed as soon as possible.
And no, I don't think the civil disobedience argument holds up either.

LuckyLloyd

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Did you actually fully read the OP?
This isn't just "another dole thread on boards".
It's pointing out the ridiculous situation where we're paying people more on social welfare than they were getting when they were working.
A situation which is going to cost us a fortune and should have been fixed as soon as possible.
And no, I don't think the civil disobedience argument holds up either.

Yeah I read it. It's deliberate government policy. They knew some people would get the payment who weren't entitled to it and others would do better off the payment than they were working. These are features, not bugs. You just don't understand that.

Sean.3516

The response by most people to this seems to be “well this only shows how low wages were before to begin with”. Therefore we need to raise the minimum wage and make this €350 “living wage” the normal dole payment even after the pandemic as wannabe Che Guevara Boyd-Barrett has been saying.

First of all I’m confused by this idea that it’s an employer’s job to pay their employee on the basis of some arbitrarily defined standard of living rather than on the basis of their work. If someone isn’t being payed enough to do all of the things they would like to be doing they have the option to either live within their means or seek out a higher paying job.

The blanket €350 solution never made any sense to begin with. The purpose of it was not to encourage people to stay home as some people are saying but to subsidise the cost of people being prevented from working due to a government enforced shutdown of the economy. It should only have gone to people who lost their jobs as a result of the shutdown as well as medically vulnerable people who cannot work due to health risk.

This was NOT a stimulus package as some people have called it. It was a compensatory package for people displaced from the labour market due to the pandemic. It was not intended to bribe people to voluntarily quit their jobs and stay home. After all of this is done I hope the Department of Finance mercilessly hounds anybody who robbed their fellow citizen by taking advantage of this when they had no need of it.

Cobalt17

osarusan wrote: »

The payment is necessary, and not even all that generous compared to some other countries.

Exploitation of it by chancers is inevitable, but the remedy for that is to go after those who abuse it. The real issue is that the govt (or next govt, or any govt) is unlikely to actually do that, if existing attitudes to exploitation of the SW system is any indication.

40% exploitation is unacceptable.

Chaos Black

I know nothing more about this then your average person but I imagine the scheme was designed quickly in a way that it could be rolled out to a massive amount of applicants via the existing Social Welfare and Revenue systems. I doubt "nuance" was the order of the day.

Individually checking applicants would take a substantial amount of manpower that is already tied up with the increased pressures of work due to the pandemic.

If the politicians are willing, i'd say Revenue and Social Welfare could claw back money at the end of the year as I believe they now formerly communicate/share systems on tax returns. Not to mention people gaming the system, that likely has tax implications and the State is quite good at identifying that kind of thing.

is_that_so

Cobalt17 wrote: »

40% exploitation is unacceptable.

We can give you a shotgun if you like!
Is is flawed? Yes.
Is it a simple system? Yes.
Was it swift? Yes, very much so.
Is it time-limited? Also yes, at most another 8-9 weeks.

Sean.3516

osarusan wrote: »

The payment is necessary, and not even all that generous compared to some other countries.

Exploitation of it by chancers is inevitable, but the remedy for that is to go after those who abuse it. The real issue is that the govt (or next govt, or any govt) is unlikely to actually do that, if existing attitudes to exploitation of the SW system is any indication.

I’m wondering why it wasn’t means tested to begin with. And given on a graduated basis as opposed to the full €350 for anyone who qualifies. I know a first year college student (who is by no means economically disadvantaged) that was working part time in Eddie Rocket’s and is now receiving €350 a week which they’ve been spending on Amazon during the lockdown.

Surely the bureaucratic nightmare of means testing this in some way is worth the savings in revenue from fraud.

Cobalt17

splashuum wrote: »

I've heard similar stories to Paulie. Doesn't appear to be a priority of the government.

I’ve a buddy who works with the department of social protection. According to him, every claim will be retroactively inspected with a fine tooth comb once the pandemic has ended. This will include production of bank statements, proof of unemployment etc.

RocketRaccoon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It’s an emergency stimulus package designed to give money directly to the citizenry. To assuage any potential issues with civil disobedience or otherwise due to worry or desperation; and to maintain some level of initial demand in the economy as restrictions are lifted.

It’s supposed to be easy to get. It’s supposed to be in excess of any welfare payment previously provided. It’s supposed to disincentivize people from working lower paid jobs for a period.

I can’t quite work out whether the majority of those complaining about this are wilfully ignorant and pearl clutching out of political bias; or are just duped by the age old ‘divide and conquer’ narratives around welfare. Either way, this is just another dole thread on boards. Ho hum.

It's jealousy plain and simple.

I was put on unpaid leave from work, I earn a good bit more than €350 a week yet this has meant I haven't had to worry about rent and bills while being out of work. If I was put on the standard dole instead, I would most likely have ****ed myself off a bridge due to not being able to pay for anything.

is_that_so

Cobalt17 wrote: »

I’ve a buddy who works with the department of social protection. According to him, every claim will be retroactively inspected with a fine tooth comb once the pandemic has ended.

That sounds unlikely as it's taxable income, not welfare.

RocketRaccoon

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I’m wondering why it wasn’t means tested to begin with. And given on a graduated basis as opposed to the full €350 for anyone who qualifies. I know a first year college student (who is by no means economically disadvantaged) that was working part time in Eddie Rocket’s and is now receiving €350 a week which they’ve been spending on Amazon during the lockdown.

Surely the bureaucratic nightmare of means testing this in some way is worth the savings in revenue from fraud.

Because about half a million people were put out of work in a matter of days, if it was all means tested it would have taken weeks for any payments to go out.

Cobalt17

Cobalt17 wrote: »

40% exploitation is unacceptable.

It's not exploitation......... if you worked 20 hours a week at €12/hour and your place of work was closed you were entitled to the Covid19 €350 payment........ no doubt some folk claimed it who weren't at all entitled to it but of the 40% this topic refers to I'd imagine most of them were entitled to claim it.

And if thy were on less beforehand then the difference probably was of great help to them over the last 2 or so months.

There’s already a thread on it. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058076328

Cobalt17

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

It's jealousy plain and simple.

I was put on unpaid leave from work, I earn a good bit more than €350 a week yet this has meant I haven't had to worry about rent and bills while being out of work. If I was put on the standard dole instead, I would most likely have ****ed myself off a bridge due to not being able to pay for anything.

I don’t think it’s jealousy. My dad had to sign up for the payment, he finds it reprehensible that people are taking advantage of the crisis, as do many.

We seem to dismiss welfare fraud in this country as a “justifiable” crime.