The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

Plumbthedepths

I see the self proclaimed economics graduate is still posting anecdotal rubbish.
No work Fred, you on the Covid payment?

Fred Cryton

Deleted User wrote: »

Those unwilling to work are already on the dole at the €203 rate.

No, those are the people who were unwilling to work when all they would get is €203.



Now we have another huge cohort of people unwilling to work at the 350 welfare rate.

Fred Cryton

I think the reason this thread has struck a chord is deep down Irish people know they've got away with absolute murder with a 350 flat weekly welfare rate. Pretty much a full weeks work at minimum wage for nothing and a big pay rise for part timers. They think it's too good to be true and they're right, it is. It's slowly bankrupting the country with big financial trouble being stored up ahead.

KyussB

If you think they're unwilling to work, then offer them work for the money, with standard unemployment as the alternative...

You're so concerned about them being lazy - so you can get behind that, right?

Seems not. Seems most people would rather have persistent long term unemployment, rather than have the government provide sorely needed work (both in terms of people needing jobs, and jobs that need doing).

Banana Republic 1

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No, those are the people who were unwilling to work when all they would get is €203.



Now we have another huge cohort of people unwilling to work at the 350 welfare rate.

If you cant string a coherent sentence together dont post.

jrosen

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No, those are the people who were unwilling to work when all they would get is €203.



Now we have another huge cohort of people unwilling to work at the 350 welfare rate.

No we wont, an emergency payment is simply that. Once all phases are complete there will be no one in receipt of the covid payment. Anyone who has not returned to work will qualify for the flat rate of JSB and will have to meet the criteria for that.

Banana Republic 1

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I think the reason this thread has struck a chord is deep down Irish people know they've got away with absolute murder with a 350 flat weekly welfare rate. Pretty much a full weeks work at minimum wage for nothing and a big pay rise for part timers. They think it's too good to be true and they're right, it is. It's slowly bankrupting the country with big financial trouble being stored up ahead.

The minimum wage for an adult is €10.10. People here are unhappy because normally the poverty trap works the other way around so for the short time this lasts, relative to the normal course of events, the unhappy campers need something to keep their sense of self importance up and the easy way is to begrudge and punchdown on the least well off in society.

jrosen

Lots of part time workers earn good money. This idea that all part time staff are raking it in on the covid isn't true.

ronano

KyussB wrote: »

So now we've gone from "but there's no work to do...", to "but it's too hard...", and now to "but FG would never support it...".

Nothing but goalpost shifting and cherry picking from these posters.

People have been telling FG to build a fuckload of houses for years and years now, with many other parties making it a pillar of their election promises - there's loads of work to do, that people are crying out for politically.

Way better use of the publics time and money, than just giving people 350 for nothing.

If you get to just spew nonsense without any hint of reality, I'll indulge in the same from your pov :P

The skilled workers who would do everything you say would be working at their profession already or shortly returning. They won't want for work, the vast majority of people on the 350 euro are on the payment due to a so far once in a lifetime worldwide pandemic. They will be back in work once restrictions are lifted if the jobs are there. If the jobs are gone they will be moved onto the jobseekers rate. Those getting 350 euro but were part time workers will shortly be rectified. Again this was put in place as a minimal administration when the pandemic hit to attempt to ensure the health services were not overrun and the economy and associated social problems didn't just drop through the floor.

There are not 100,000's of people available for work or there won't be in a few months. Quite frankly it's idiotic to try to get those on a temporary payment out there working in any capacity, it's a short term solution

aido79

KyussB wrote: »

Exactly as I said earlier: People bait and switch from "there's no work to do....", to "it's too hard...".

There was one before saying that people having to learn how to use a sewing machine (for producing PPE), represents an impassible skills barrier...

Yes, among the vast amounts of unskilled work available in these projects, there will be roles where people need to be taught skills along the way - the same as a lot of private/public sector jobs, where people regularly pick up new skills as they work. That doesn't impede any of these projects.

How does this all work with social distancing?...the reason for all of these people being out of work in the first place.

KyussB

ronano wrote: »

If you get to just spew nonsense without any hint of reality, I'll indulge in the same from your pov :P

The skilled workers who would do everything you say would be working at their profession already or shortly returning. They won't want for work, the vast majority of people on the 350 euro are on the payment due to a so far once in a lifetime worldwide pandemic. They will be back in work once restrictions are lifted if the jobs are there. If the jobs are gone they will be moved onto the jobseekers rate. Those getting 350 euro but were part time workers will shortly be rectified. Again this was put in place as a minimal administration when the pandemic hit to attempt to ensure the health services were not overrun and the economy and associated social problems didn't just drop through the floor.

There are not 100,000's of people available for work or there won't be in a few months. Quite frankly it's idiotic to try to get those on a temporary payment out there working in any capacity, it's a short term solution

If those workers are so high in demand that they'll be employed right out of the Job Guarantee program, right after they are trained up in those skills - then the Job Guarantee has fulfilled its purpose in restoring full private sector employment.

Assuming that we'll suddenly bounce back to full employment after the coronavirus crisis is over, goes contrary to what practically all economists out there are saying.

I'll be glad if that is the case. If that isn't the case though, we're going to need to provide jobs for a very large number of people...unless you think they should remain long-term unemployed for years on end? (which is what economists are foreseeing - the worst depression in a century)

KyussB

aido79 wrote: »

How does this all work with social distancing?...the reason for all of these people being out of work in the first place.

Well, lets go back to the original example of producing PPE - all the examples in the post you replied to, were responding to a poster saying what to do other than produce PPE.

People can mass produce PPE (it doesn't even need to be perfect N95) - and then the PPE produced can be used to restore both the private and public workforce to work, safely, far earlier.

Right now the country barely pays any attention to the concept of e.g. masks - nevermind making them mandatory - which is madness really.


The plan isn't just for during the coronavirus crisis either (at which point PPE production is a primary requirement) - it is for after the coronavirus crisis ends, when we will most likely have massive unemployment, being in one of the biggest depressions in a century (or so economists are saying) - we will then need to provide work for all of the unemployed, unless we want to chuck a huge number of people off the edge of society, curtailing their future prospects.

Long term unemployment is extremely damaging to people, in many ways - not least, in their lifetime financial income, potentially setting people back a decade or more - and it can be the difference between a healthy retirement vs poverty in retirement - it leads to suicide for many - and it can permanently damage a persons career prospects, altering the entire course of their life. It's completely pointless to allow such a damaging thing to happen to people, for no good reason.

RandomViewer

Fred is kite flying, no one expects the Covid payment to last for long, once it finishes those who's industries have reopened will go back to work and those that don't will either hope to get another job or sign on for ordinary Jobseekers, I think the notion is victim blaming , the government shut down lots of workplaces but Fred blames the workers.

Podge201

How much tax will employees be paying on the 350?

aido79

KyussB wrote: »

Well, lets go back to the original example of producing PPE - all the examples in the post you replied to, were responding to a poster saying what to do other than produce PPE.

People can mass produce PPE (it doesn't even need to be perfect N95) - and then the PPE produced can be used to restore both the private and public workforce to work, safely, far earlier.

Right now the country barely pays any attention to the concept of e.g. masks - nevermind making them mandatory - which is madness really.


The plan isn't just for during the coronavirus crisis either (at which point PPE production is a primary requirement) - it is for after the coronavirus crisis ends, when we will most likely have massive unemployment, being in one of the biggest depressions in a century (or so economists are saying) - we will then need to provide work for all of the unemployed, unless we want to chuck a huge number of people off the edge of society, curtailing their future prospects.

Long term unemployment is extremely damaging to people, in many ways - not least, in their lifetime financial income, potentially setting people back a decade or more - and it can be the difference between a healthy retirement vs poverty in retirement - it leads to suicide for many - and it can permanently damage a persons career prospects, altering the entire course of their life. It's completely pointless to allow such a damaging thing to happen to people, for no good reason.

Ok problem solved. Kyuss said put your masks on and get back to work.

aido79

Podge201 wrote: »

How much tax will employees be paying on the 350?

There is no one answer to this. It depends on your other earnings for the year. Do you understand how the tax system works in Ireland?

Idbatterim

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I think the reason this thread has struck a chord is deep down Irish people know they've got away with absolute murder with a 350 flat weekly welfare rate. Pretty much a full weeks work at minimum wage for nothing and a big pay rise for part timers. They think it's too good to be true and they're right, it is. It's slowly bankrupting the country with big financial trouble being stored up ahead.

Dont forget it's the economies "safe pair of hands " fg, that are destroying the economy...

RandomViewer

Podge201 wrote: »

How much tax will employees be paying on the 350?

You might be due tax back, depending on how much you paid at te start of the year.

Banana Republic 1

rob316 wrote: »

350 as a baseline for SW would be insane, anyone on minimum wage would never work again.

Solution: raise the minimum wage.

Banana Republic 1

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Never working again is not a problem to many people in Ireland.

The rich do all the time.

Banana Republic 1

Fred Cryton wrote: »

There will be a large subset who won't work if they're not incentivized to. This is just human nature. If you're one of the good ones who'll go back working for less money than the 350, then fair play to you. But many will need a good strong push and incentive or they just won't do it.

This makes sense although it’s not the sense your thinking off.

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

The rich do all the time.

While some wealthy people might not work, they do create employment. Housekeepers, gardeners, drivers, not to mention indirectly in golf clubs, race courses, restaurants, etc.

Fred Cryton

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Solution: raise the minimum wage.

Everything is so simple in your commie world eh? Pay them a million euro an hour I'm sure they'd work then. Nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

Banana Republic 1

Deleted User wrote: »

While some wealthy people might not work, they do create employment. Housekeepers, gardeners, drivers, not to mention indirectly in golf clubs, race courses, restaurants, etc.

The less well of do exactly the same things and use allot more of their pay packet doing so on top TAX, VAT and USC.

Your name wouldn't be P Flynn would it ?

Banana Republic 1

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Everything is so simple in your commie world eh? Pay them a million euro an hour I'm sure they'd work then. Nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

The clueless idiot strikes again, (exit stage left)

aido79

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Solution: raise the minimum wage.

Exactly. There needs to be a bigger gap between what a person can get on SW and what they could earn by working.

ELM327

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Everything is so simple in your commie world eh? Pay them a million euro an hour I'm sure they'd work then. Nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

Exactly.
Our comrade above has failed to notice the knock on effects that would come with such a move

Banana Republic 1

ELM327 wrote: »

Exactly.
Our comrade above has failed to notice the knock on effects that would come with such a move

List them so Foghorn

suicide_circus

can anyone explain why people in receipt of the covid subsidy are being overpaid and will have to keep a portion of it to pay revenue back later?

i dont understand it

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

can anyone explain why people in receipt of the covid subsidy are being overpaid and will have to keep a portion of it to pay revenue back later?

i dont understand it

It’s classed as taxable income.

Or in other cases where the recipients are in receipt of another welfare payment, they’re not entitled to Covid. It’s also been said that anyone not earning €350 before the lockdown may have to repay the difference.