The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

mosii

mosii wrote: »

From June 29, anyone earning under €199.99 pre Covid, will have their payment reduced to €203. Anyone on €200 and over, will keep the €350 until the payment is phased out.

How will the know if people are above or below?

Tax returns.

ShooterSF

mosii wrote: »

From June 29, anyone earning under €199.99 pre Covid, will have their payment reduced to €203. Anyone on €200 and over, will keep the €350 until the payment is phased out.

How will the know if people are above or below?

I never understand things like this. The people that were earning the least get a smaller net. Should have been means testing the top end of earners who didn't need 350 a week. What a weird welfare system.

ShooterSF

ShooterSF wrote: »

I never understand things like this. The people that were earning the least get a smaller net. Should have been means testing the top end of earners who didn't need 350 a week. What a weird welfare system.

It’s a short term emergency payment. Very much welcomed by the many who were laid off during the lockdown. You’ll always have chancers. Me Feiners who care little for their fellow citizens or indeed, their country.

ShooterSF

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s a short term emergency payment. Very much welcomed by the many who were laid off during the lockdown. You’ll always have chancers. Me Feiners who care little for their fellow citizens or indeed, their country.

Oh I'm not bad mouthing it or the people that got it. I think the govt did a good job as it had to get it out fast. I just found it odd that as they start to cut it out it is the people who you imagine need it most that are taking the reduction. Like how does someone who was earning 1k a week before this need more than the person who was likely living wage to wage making 200 euro. Then the UK and many other countries also had systems where the less well off you were the less you got, I just find it all very weird.

ShooterSF

ShooterSF wrote: »

Oh I'm not bad mouthing it or the people that got it. I think the govt did a good job as it had to get it out fast. I just found it odd that as they start to cut it out it is the people who you imagine need it most that are taking the reduction. Like how does someone who was earning 1k a week before this need more than the person who was likely living wage to wage making 200 euro. Then the UK and many other countries also had systems where the less well off you were the less you got, I just find it all very weird.

Most of those on 1k will more than likely return to their employment. As I’ve already said, it’s a short term measure. Why should someone earning less than €200 get €350?

Meeoow

ShooterSF wrote: »

I never understand things like this. The people that were earning the least get a smaller net. Should have been means testing the top end of earners who didn't need 350 a week. What a weird welfare system.

Aye, the workers who get taxed more should get less. That makes sense.
Most people who earn 200 are probably working less hours, and getting WFP, HAP, medical cards.

Padraig Mor

Don't normally read this thread so apologies if it's been mentioned previously but I had a phone interview today with the CSO as part of a labour workforce survey (think I'm on a panel or something) gauging the effect of the crisis on workers. Was shooting the breeze with her afterwards and asked what results were standing out to her (as someone interviewing people all day every day). Her answer was that she was coming across loads of people who were better off with the €350 payment and were quite happy - she described lots of interviewees being in situations where both members of a couple (husband, wife, etc) were on €700 per week between them which was more than they had working, no commuting costs, co childcare costs - they were as she put it "like pigs in ****" and very happy for the situation to continue as long as possible.

ShooterSF

Meeoow wrote: »

Aye, the workers who get taxed more should get less. That makes sense.
Most people who earn 200 are probably working less hours, and getting WFP, HAP, medical cards.

I'll just quote one as it is the same idea, but it makes sense if we treat welfare as a safety net for the vulnerable in society. The idea that those that pay more tax should be getting a bigger safety net is to miss the point no? If I'm earning a substantial wage I can build my own safety net but those that need to live week to week can't and need other's support.

If someone who was earning 200 euro a week since January and out of work can survive on 200 a week in July, then why does someone who was earning 1000 a week in January need 350 a week to survive when they had more earnings before the lockdown?

Geuze

ShooterSF wrote: »

I'll just quote one as it is the same idea, but it makes sense if we treat welfare as a safety net for the vulnerable in society. The idea that those that pay more tax should be getting a bigger safety net is to miss the point no? If I'm earning a substantial wage I can build my own safety net but those that need to live week to week can't and need other's support.

If someone who was earning 200 euro a week since January and out of work can survive on 200 a week in July, then why does someone who was earning 1000 a week in January need 350 a week to survive when they had more earnings before the lockdown?

It depends on whether you believe benefits should be linked to previous earnings, or flat-rated.

Ireland mainly has flat-rated benefits.

Countries with more social insurance have more emphasis on earnings-related benefits.

This is why I can state what the amount of the State Pension is in Ireland, but not in DE or FR, as the payment depends on previous earnings.

Geuze

ShooterSF wrote: »

I'll just quote one as it is the same idea, but it makes sense if we treat welfare as a safety net for the vulnerable in society. The idea that those that pay more tax should be getting a bigger safety net is to miss the point no?

Basic safety net only = social assistance, often means-tested

Earnings-related benefits, aimed at workers = social insurance, usually not means-tested, based on SI conts

Meeoow

Anyone on over 35,300 per year will be paying back half in tax. So they will only be gaining 175 of the covid payment.

RandomViewer

Meeoow wrote: »

Anyone on over 35,300 per year will be paying back half in tax. So they will only be gaining 175 of the covid payment.

Where did you hear that?

Plumbthedepths

Meeoow wrote: »

Anyone on over 35,300 per year will be paying back half in tax. So they will only be gaining 175 of the covid payment.

I'm guessing you're not involved in payroll or accountancy. ;-)

LuckyLloyd

https://twitter.com/HangBlaa/status/1271203650736721920?s=20

Says it all on this topic, tbh.

Bubbaclaus

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm guessing you're not involved in payroll or accountancy. ;-)

40% PAYE and 4.5% USC to be paid on it, he's not too far wrong.

Plumbthedepths

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

40% PAYE and 4.5% USC to be paid on it, he's not too far wrong.

Like you he is wrong. The first €35,300 of earnings is taxed at 20% people may have temporarily lost their jobs but not their tax allowances or credits.
So much ignorance on this thread.

GSBellew

ShooterSF wrote: »

Oh I'm not bad mouthing it or the people that got it. I think the govt did a good job as it had to get it out fast. I just found it odd that as they start to cut it out it is the people who you imagine need it most that are taking the reduction. Like how does someone who was earning 1k a week before this need more than the person who was likely living wage to wage making 200 euro. Then the UK and many other countries also had systems where the less well off you were the less you got, I just find it all very weird.

Well the person who was earning less than €200 most likely has bills that are in line with their income, lets say they earned €180 per week average, over the past 12 weeks they've received €2,040 more than they are used to.

Contrast to someone with average net pay of €1,000, they are likely to have a mortgage to pay, bills in line with their usual income, over the past 12 weeks they've received €7,800 less than they are used to.

The person on €180 normally is still going to get €23 a week more than usual.

The person on €1,000 normally is still going to get €650 less than usual.

Bubbaclaus

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Like you he is wrong. The first €35,300 of earnings is taxed at 20% people may have temporarily lost their jobs but not their tax allowances or credits.
So much ignorance on this thread.

If you earn over 35k this year outside of the 350 per week (whether it is the PUP or the WSS) then you will have used up the 20% band and credits. That is the point being made. Many will be in this position when they return to work. You are correct about the ignorance, but ironically it appears to be you showing it.

Plumbthedepths

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

If you earn over 35k this year outside of the 350 per week (whether it is the PUP or the WSS) then you will have used up the 20% band and credits. That is the point being made. Many will be in this position when they return to work. You are correct about the ignorance, but ironically it appears to be you showing it.

Appearances can be deceptive. I'll leave you at it.

Bubbaclaus

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Appearances can be deceptive. I'll leave you at it.

No apology and admitting you were wrong so? I suppose the easiest way out when proven incorrect is to quietly bow out and leave the other person "at it"

phormium

Yes but aren't credits and bands divided out over the weeks of the year? So therefore when a person returns to work after having been off getting 350 pw the credit/band for those weeks which was unused as they were not in work goes towards the tax on the 350?

I'm sure someone will correct me if that is wrong too!

Meeoow

The 350 will be added onto your earnings. So if you are on the high rate, you will be taxed on the high rate.

kazamo

The group to gain the most out of this are the employers who availed of The Covid19 scheme and still required their employees to work full time from home.

They now have a weekly subsidy of 350 per week.
On top of this, the 350 is tax free atm, but each employee gets to their pre coved net pay quicker because of this 350, so the employees gross pay is dropped accordingly.
It costs less per week to employ the person and at the end of the year when the 350 becomes taxable income, it's the employees issue.

When the Covid19 scheme ends, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of P45s as employers will be so used to the lower wage bill, going back to Feb levels will be too steep a climb regardless of profitability.

Meeoow

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Like you he is wrong. The first €35,300 of earnings is taxed at 20% people may have temporarily lost their jobs but not their tax allowances or credits.
So much ignorance on this thread.

Someone made a comment that a worker on 1000 a week is less deserving of 350 than someone on a low wage.
There'll be plenty of workers who will still earn above the 35300 threshold, even being off during the pandemic. A lot of workers were only laid off for a few weeks, so their gross, even not working for a month or 2 will still be above.
Plenty of begrudgers here hate to see people doing well for themselves and working hard.
I am lucky enough not to have been laid off temporarily, but I would have still been over the 20% tax band, for repaying the payment.

addaword

A few months ago, the government told many people in the private sector they could not work and gave them 350 a week instead.

The government told many people in the public sector to go home too and they had no work for them. Should not those of the 17000 Special Needs Assistants , the Failte Ireland staff who had to tourists to assist etc not have been put on 350 a week too?

Pat Kenny made that excellent point.
Would have saved the taxpayer, those who support the government, a fortune.

GSBellew

GSBellew wrote: »

Well the person who was earning less than €200 most likely has bills that are in line with their income, lets say they earned €180 per week average, over the past 12 weeks they've received €2,040 more than they are used to.

Contrast to someone with average net pay of €1,000, they are likely to have a mortgage to pay, bills in line with their usual income, over the past 12 weeks they've received €7,800 less than they are used to.

The person on €180 normally is still going to get €23 a week more than usual.

The person on €1,000 normally is still going to get €650 less than usual.

Mortgage payments were put on hold. Car insurance companies have been giving refunds, plus reduced travel expenses, etc....

addaword

addaword wrote: »

A few months ago, the government told many people in the private sector they could not work and gave them 350 a week instead.

The government told many people in the public sector to go home too and they had no work for them. Should not those of the 17000 Special Needs Assistants , the Failte Ireland staff who had to tourists to assist etc not have been put on 350 a week too?

Pat Kenny made that excellent point.
Would have saved the taxpayer, those who support the government, a fortune.

Hindsight is great. I personally think that the €350 was too high, but something had to be done to keep people from starving. That’s not overstating it, as many families live week to week and wouldn’t have the savings to cover a possible indefinite period of unemployment.

Salty

Deleted User wrote: »

Mortgage payments were put on hold. Car insurance companies have been giving refunds, plus reduced travel expenses, etc....

Mortgage payments still have to paid afterwards with interest, and any car insurance companies who gave refunds only gave circa €30 from what I read. My own car insurance company has given no refund at all. Doubt I'll see a drop in my premium either at renewal.

Whether people like it or not, it is true that people with higher salaries have higher expenses. The €350 has been a significant reduction for those people but also a lifeline. It's not forever and the number of people claiming will reduce as more workplaces open. At this stage we just need to go with it.

Conall Cernach

GSBellew wrote: »

Well the person who was earning less than €200 most likely has bills that are in line with their income, lets say they earned €180 per week average, over the past 12 weeks they've received €2,040 more than they are used to.

Contrast to someone with average net pay of €1,000, they are likely to have a mortgage to pay, bills in line with their usual income, over the past 12 weeks they've received €7,800 less than they are used to.

The person on €180 normally is still going to get €23 a week more than usual.

The person on €1,000 normally is still going to get €650 less than usual.

You may be forgetting that people who are working part time can claim a job seekers payment to help supplement their income. So someone getting 180 in wages could be getting another 120 from SW for a total weekly income of 300. When they applied for the covid payment their income went up 50 per week but they had to stop their jobseekers claim. Now they will be getting 203 total from the covid payment they will be down about 100 per week which is a massive difference.

RandomViewer

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

40% PAYE and 4.5% USC to be paid on it, he's not too far wrong.

First 15k has no Paye ,15500 to 35500 is 20%, so that's roughly 4k, USC say 350 and PRSI be generous and say a grand, so how is he right ?