The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

all about the mane

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No other country made people better off on welfare than when they had been working. 500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working. It's going to be enormously difficult to get these people back into the workforce now. Any politician trying to reduce the payment to incentivise work will be branded a right wing thatcherite by the usual suspects.



Who's going to go back to a minimum wage job 20 hours a week when they can earn nearly double that from the taxpayer while not having to work? This will starve businesses of much needed workers just when they need to get back going.



The costs to the exchequer are enormous. We could build a new hospital every month with the amount of money this is costing the state. Did anyone think of this? We have Regina Doherty, mother goose of the nation herself, to thank for this mess.


The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

I am not in receipt of the payment, and no one related to me is either. I think it’s a great idea. We need to keep the economy firing and I’d rather see these people have it than to give it to the banks etc so we can plat that trickle down charade.
And yes, I will be home be of the ones paying for it. But that’s fine. I’m lucky enough to still have a decent job. Glad to see others getting a leg up.

Gavlor

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany along with the other northern creditor countries will never agree to that (ever).

That's like Italy saying "we want to borrow money on your credit card and when we screw it up we'll split the bill 50/50!"

That's what that is.

Germany and the other major creditors within the euro zone have a vested interest here. They know that long dated low rate Finance is the only way out of this and in effect the only way for the eurozone to survive long term. Survival of the eu & eurozone is far more important to Germany than their debt ceiling.

Sam Quentin

Why in God's name would anyone publicly say/admit that they want people to suffer financial ruin because our country was locked down by a World wide pandemic,.and we now have no income. Like why would you wish that on anyone!?
If it must be paid back,then so be it. I think most are so appreciative of it and could not fault the Government for making such a move. One person I know has told me they would gladly pay 50€ a month when he's up and working again. He doesn't know anything about it being repaid and it was just an of the cuff remark.

satguy

Some say that,, this will all need to be paid back after this pandemic is over.

But I think we should make the banks pay back what they got in 08 first,, some of them are still tax free even today.
Maybe if the banks pay us back,, the Irish people might not have to pay higher tax.

Why should we pay extra tax when even the Former Fine Gael Head Strategist was having his pay paid into a bank offshore,, must be great to live in Ireland Tax Free..

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/frank-flannery-unable-to-explain-documents-on-250-000-deposit-1.2597000

Happy Days.. (for some)

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany along with the other northern creditor countries will never agree to that (ever).

That's like Italy saying "we want to borrow money on your credit card and when we screw it up we'll split the bill 50/50!"

That's what that is.

Tbf the way the EU and ecb left italy high and dry,when they needed help most


I couldnt fault italians for wanting out,whats point of an union,if it cant help its weakest members

kippy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany along with the other northern creditor countries will never agree to that (ever).

That's like Italy saying "we want to borrow money on your credit card and when we screw it up we'll split the bill 50/50!"

That's what that is.

Germany really wont have a choice if they want to see the Euro and Eurozone survive.
Large scale debt restructuring and/or writeoffs are the only way to save the Euro and most likely the European project.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Tbf the way the EU and ecb left italy high and dry,when they needed help most


I couldnt fault italians for wanting out,whats point of an union,if it cant help its weakest members

The sight of Russian/Cuban/Chinese planes on Italian runways spurred the EU to find some forgotten Solidarity.

alta stare

I am one of those receiving the 350 and i for one am very grateful for it. Does it mean i want to stay out of work hell no. The boredom alone is killing me and iv been doing my best to keep busy.

If the payment to people was any less there would be way more people in serious trouble. At least the 350 helped that little bit more so id applaud the government on that one. Now they really need to kick start our economy again and get people off the 350 and while they are it they need to go after the long time dolers money too.

Im sure when us that choose to do a days work go back to paying our taxes we will get hit with even more tax after this years budget so why cant those in powers cut the money of those who choose to sit on their holes all the time.

castle2012

I work as a regional manager for a large retail wholesale group. We had 0 Jobs advertised 4 weeks ago, today we have 78 jobs advertised. We have had no applications. Furthermore all this week I'm dealing with stores with staffing problems, Every case the part time staff are refusing to come back and are asking to be let go, as the with the social covid payment there better off.
Note the part time staff only did 10-15 hours a week prior to covid-19. But are now on €350 per week.

FVP3

GazzaL wrote: »

I doubt the increasing numbers of people that won't have jobs to go back when the country reopens will share that sentiment.

She didnt express any sentiment?

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

They won't have to refuse. A good few cafes and restaurants will not reopen after this debacle anyway.

I think they will survive alright, people will probably spend more on a night out in smaller groups.

FVP3

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Germany along with the other northern creditor countries will never agree to that (ever).

That's like Italy saying "we want to borrow money on your credit card and when we screw it up we'll split the bill 50/50!"

That's what that is.

Its precisely what a damn financial union should be, and should always have been.

alta stare

castle2012 wrote: »

I work as a regional manager for a large retail wholesale group. We had 0 Jobs advertised 4 weeks ago, today we have 78 jobs advertised. We have had no applications. Furthermore all this week I'm dealing with stores with staffing problems, Every case the part time staff are refusing to come back and are asking to be let go, as the with the social covid payment there better off.
Note the part time staff only did 10-15 hours a week prior to covid-19. But are now on €350 per week.

A chap i know was telling me one of his relatives worked a handful of hours a week and usually comes out with no more than 80 euro a week and she was let go because of covid19, now she gets the 350. What truth is in that i dont know but i wouldn't be surprised if it is true.

mea_k

Ha ha ha, I personally know someone who worked one day a week.
Now receiving 350 e....living at home no bills to pay.

RandomViewer

sydthebeat wrote: »

The premise of the thread is obvious.

Its a shinners reaction to the kicking Mary lou got yesterday in the Dail.

I don't think you'll find any SF people calling for the Covid payment to be cut and it was Varadker who ended up with egg on his face whe dopey Owen did what Leo accused SF of doing, he's still confusing Stormont with Westminster too, Be funny when he asks Sammy Wilson about the weather in Brighton

RandomViewer

mea_k wrote: »

Ha ha ha, I personally know someone who worked one day a week.
Now receiving 350 e....living at home no bills to pay.

Doubt it, if they were signing on for the other days there'll be no Covid payment. Funny how some people seem to be privy to private data.?

RandomViewer

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Whatever Fred is, he ain't a Shinner. Fred was appalled the commemoration for the RIC/ Black&Tans was cancelled.

My notion is that Fred is a lackey in the frap room, rather dull guy ,bit of a nerd, poor personal hygiene but can work a keyboard okay, needs attention, not an alpha male, Be half way through the Greek alphabet till we reach what he is, anyway Fred is getting nervous, defence of the party is getting stale, people are bored with the 2 V's ,Varadker and the Virus so sad under pressure Fred decides to attack the people whose jobs have been lost to the lockdown, no fault of theirs but Fred know the more right wing wanxxx the more likely of the frap room bonus, twit probably not on much more than minimum wage himself

splinter65

RandomViewer wrote: »

Doubt it, if they were signing on for the other days there'll be no Covid payment. Funny how some people seem to be privy to private data.?

If you were/are a student and working 1/2 days a week then you couldn’t sign for the other days because your a full time student.
If you lost your job because of covid then you are entitled to the payment.

Wanderer78

Fred Cryton wrote:

The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

Fcuked up! This could be seen as a kind of helicopter money trial, I. E. Putting money directly into people's hands, rather than the usual methods, so that they spend it into the economy in order to stimulate it. This potentially could be one of the most economically radical things an Irish conservative government has ever done, even bloody trump is doing this now!

893bet

alta stare wrote: »

A chap i know was telling me one of his relatives worked a handful of hours a week and usually comes out with no more than 80 euro a week and she was let go because of covid19, now she gets the 350. What truth is in that i dont know but i wouldn't be surprised if it is true.

It is true.

The scheme was rushed in. The man power and it would have taken to try and not make it a flat rate payment was too great and the need at the time for action was too urgent.

Ideally the payment would have been calculated over a reference period (say the 4 weeks prior to the lockdown) and you get 80% of salary up to a max of 350.

That would have lead to weeks and weeks of waiting lists etc.

Government can’t win! That’s a fact!

aido79

BoatMad wrote: »

Masters are just a little up from undergraduate , they know very little

As the saying goes.."Never confuse education with intelligence "

Jucifer

893bet wrote: »

It is true.

The scheme was rushed in. The man power and it would have taken to try and not make it a flat rate payment was too great and the need at the time for action was too urgent.

Ideally the payment would have been calculated over a reference period (say the 4 weeks prior to the lockdown) and you get 80% of salary up to a max of 350.

That would have lead to weeks and weeks of waiting lists etc.

Government can’t win! That’s a fact!

I think this is a very good point. If everyone was a PAYE worker in a single job, being paid weekly/monthly on a regular basis it would have been easier to implement a relative income support measure.

However, employment is a lot more complex and people would have been waiting a lot longer to have applications processed. It also may have been impossible for many to get the necessary proof of income due to businesses being shut and services curtailed.

I just hope there is some sort of stimulus when thing everything reopens otherwise it could be quite a sluggish recovery if income support is rolled back before the economy recovers.

satguy

satguy wrote: »

Some say that,, this will all need to be paid back after this pandemic is over.

But I think we should make the banks pay back what they got in 08 first,, some of them are still tax free even today.
Maybe if the banks pay us back,, the Irish people might not have to pay higher tax.

Why should we pay extra tax when even the Former Fine Gael Head Strategist was having his pay paid into a bank offshore,, must be great to live in Ireland Tax Free..

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/frank-flannery-unable-to-explain-documents-on-250-000-deposit-1.2597000

Happy Days.. (for some)

08 is the past. It’s gone. Forget it and move on. This pandemic is the current reality. Emergency measures were needed.
Try walking facing forward. You’ll make your way easier than constantly looking over your shoulder.

boring accountant

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I would say the complete opposite . This temporary payment will reduce people getting into debt during this time . This increased payment is mostly for people who were legally working and are now unemployed through no fault of their own.

By giving this payment now we are placing people in a good position to spend when the economy reopens . They will spend in restaurants bars and hotels all of which are labour intensive industries which will boost employment fast.

Educate yourself on economics , listen to some podcasts such as David McWilliams .

While I tend to agree with this view it’s enormously condescending to imply the OP doesn’t understand economics.

He/she very rightly pointed out the fact that people will be unwilling to go back to work in low wage jobs and give up their 350 a week and there will be a lack of political will to pull the rug out from under these people. This is a major welfare trap and it will take a politician with balls of steel to get this right. Do you know anyone like this?

is_that_so

boring accountant wrote: »

While I tend to agree with this view it’s enormously condescending to imply the OP doesn’t understand economics.

He/she very rightly pointed out the fact that people will be unwilling to go back to work in low wage jobs and give up their 350 a week and there will be a lack of political will to pull the rug out from under these people. This is a major welfare trap and it will take a politician with balls of steel to get this right. Do you know anyone like this?

This payment was always going to be time-limited, but costly. It's still the right call IMO. It has already been suggested that anyone who "refuses" to go back to work will be knocked off it. You'd still expect a whole lot of people will remain on JSB/JSA after all of this.

Akrasia

Fred Cryton wrote: »

This is number of part time workers in the economy who earned less than 350 a week pre-crisis. Publicly available information, you shouldn't have to ask. You should have looked it up yourself.

Do you use your masters in economics to work for loan sharks or vulture funds?

Have you ever heard of Keynes or did you waste your degree only reading nonsense like Hayek and Milton Friedman

The absolutely worst thing we could do now is to restrict the money supply and force people to borrow for day to day expenses. The 2008 crash was a liquidity crisis, we need the ECB and Irish Central Bank to flood the place with money to counteract the deflation we are facing, and I think it’s 1000 times better to bail out the ordinary workers than to do what the Yanks have gone and give trillions to the big corporations so they can buy their own shares back off the billionaires and hedge funds

Giving poor people an extra few hundred euros for a few weeks won’t break the economy. Deflation will.

In the global perspective, we also need to consider the impact this crisis will have on developing countries, they could be absolutely wiped out with debt after this, we need to very seriously look at a debt jubilee in the next few years

Of course you might disagree if you think the purpose of economic activity is to facilitate a tiny percentage of the population getting ludicrously wealthy at the expense of everyone else...

salmocab

[Deleted User] wrote: »

08 is the past. It’s gone. Forget it and move on. This pandemic is the current reality. Emergency measures were needed.
Try walking facing forward. You’ll make your way easier than constantly looking over your shoulder.

To be fair we need to look at the past to not make the same mistakes. Only an idiot would forget the past when planning for the future. Your right about the current situation the measures were needed and to be fair were rolled out quickly.

mea_k

RandomViewer wrote: »

Doubt it, if they were signing on for the other days there'll be no Covid payment. Funny how some people seem to be privy to private data.?

They are not signing on as in full time education.

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

To be fair we need to look at the past to not make the same mistakes. Only an idiot would forget the past when planning for the future. Your right about the current situation the measures were needed and to be fair were rolled out quickly.

True. But constantly trying to reinvent the wheel while blaming one group for a decision taken, rightly or wrongly, isn’t very healthy. By all means learn from the past, but move forward and embrace the future.

nigeldaniel

As an FG supporter people might be surprised to hear me say that the day of a universal wage for all is encroaching. It may take another 10+ years or so but it's becoming an issue that will not go away. The main reason being, soon there will not be enough work-related jobs for the numbers living here and unless the world goes into a vast population decline everyone else will have the same issue. It is also a point to note that welfare-related money is mostly spent in the local economy, to my mind anyway, this, in turn means a fair amount goes back to the government in a number of ways. Think of Credit Unions and you are not too far away for my point.

ednwireland

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

just as bad as McWilliams then .