GUI Statement - Mod warning #1

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

There is no way to prove that you are the one who signed your card today either, so I dont see the difference tbh.

Well your partner can verify that you signed it. I know they can lie, but that's the least of our problems on the golf course if that's the case.

GreeBo wrote: »

If each player is linked to a unique device (such as via AIB banking app) then the only person who can sign for me is using my device. Someone else using my device is no different than someone else using my signature, other than its far more secure as there is only 1 device compared to anyone with a pen signing my signature.

We could all have unique signatures (username and password) that would be required for both marker and player to verify on any device. So the method of implementation isn't a problem. It's just that currently there is no such approved method. And right now, there's no method that does that *and* complies with covid-19 precautions either.

Mushy

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes, but (a) there isn't a rule of golf that allows you do that and (b) there isn't a system (that I know of) that does that currently. Take the HadicapMaster system for example. I can log in as my partner and enter his scores on my phone and vice versa. But there's no way of knowing if he's 'signed' for the score if I save it. Or even if he taps on my phone to save it (not currently a good idea wrt covid-19). So rule 3.3(b) has not been verified as having been observed.

But if you fill in the score, then do a send to partner and then they review and submit. If they dont submit, it's just an NR.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well your partner can verify that you signed it. I know they can lie, but that's the least of our problems on the golf course if that's the case.

Cant they also verify that you were holding your phone at the time they asked you to sign for it?
Similar to when you sign for a package, but you use your own devices and a shared app.

prawnsambo wrote: »

We could all have unique signatures (username and password) that would be required for both marker and player to verify on any device. So the method of implementation isn't a problem. It's just that currently there is no such approved method. And right now, there's no method that does that *and* complies with covid-19 precautions either.

Which part of 3.3(b) do you see as not having been observed (numbers added for reference)

Scoring in Stroke Play
The player’s score is kept on his or her scorecard by the marker, who is either identified by the Committee or chosen by the player in a way approved by the Committee.

The player must use the same marker for the entire round, unless the Committee approves a change either before or after it happens.

(1) Marker’s Responsibility: Entering and Certifying Hole Scores on Scorecard. After each hole during the round, the marker should confirm with the player the number of strokes on that hole (including strokes made and penalty strokes) and enter that gross score on the scorecard.

When the round has ended:

The marker must certify the hole scores on the scorecard.
If the player had more than one marker, each marker must certify the scores for those holes where he or she was the marker.

b
Scoring in Stroke Play
The player’s score is kept on his or her scorecard by the marker, who is either identified by the Committee or chosen by the player in a way approved by the Committee.

The player must use the same marker for the entire round, unless the Committee approves a change either before or after it happens.

(1) Marker’s Responsibility: Entering and Certifying Hole Scores on Scorecard. After each hole during the round, the marker should confirm with the player the number of strokes on that hole (including strokes made and penalty strokes) and enter that gross score on the scorecard.

When the round has ended:

1. The marker must certify the hole scores on the scorecard.
2. If the player had more than one marker, each marker must certify the scores for those holes where he or she was the marker.

(2) Player’s Responsibility: Certifying Hole Scores and Returning Scorecard. During the round, the player should keep track of his or her scores for each hole.

When the round has ended, the player:

1. Should carefully check the hole scores entered by the marker and raise any issues with the Committee,
2. Must make sure that the marker certifies the hole scores on the scorecard,
3. Must not change a hole score entered by the marker except with the marker's agreement or the Committee's approval, and
4. Must certify the hole scores on the scorecard and promptly return it to the Committee, after which the player must not change the scorecard.

prawnsambo

Mushy wrote: »

But if you fill in the score, then do a send to partner and then they review and submit. If they dont submit, it's just an NR.

I don't see how that's verified?. And no system I know of allows you to send to your partner. Basically, you log in, enter your score and save it. Also a partner not verifying your score is a NR? Under the rules, a marker may refuse to sign because of a disagreement, but the score is not NR as a result.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Cant they also verify that you were holding your phone at the time they asked you to sign for it?
Similar to when you sign for a package, but you use your own devices and a shared app.

Yes. But how is that confirmed? And my question refers to currently available (specific to golf) and in use technology btw, not some future implementation.

GreeBo wrote: »

Which part of 3.3(b) do you see as not having been observed (numbers added for reference)

That the player has certified their score and confirmed that the marker has also certified it. (2) 2 and 4.

Mushy

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't see how that's verified?. And no system I know of allows you to send to your partner. Basically, you log in, enter your score and save it. Also a partner not verifying your score is a NR? Under the rules, a marker may refuse to sign because of a disagreement, but the score is not NR as a result.

Essentially systems would need to be improved. I think the system should be tied in to your booking though. So something like this:

1: Player A books time (nothing new there)
2: Check in is done (this could be taken away from the pro and done on booking system/app).
3: Partner of Player A is sent scorecard at random
4: Partner puts in score on their app instead of scorecard
5: end of round, partner sends completed card to Player A (button on app to do this)
6: player A ensures score is correct and submits score to the system (on their app)

All can be done on own device, no need for logging in to somebody elses account. I'd imagine some work would be needed on the backend for this to be done.

The NR would come in where marker has sent Player A the score, and Player A hasnt submitted the score themselves.

Hope that makes sense

prawnsambo

Mushy wrote: »

Essentially systems would need to be improved. I think the system should be tied in to your booking though. So something like this:

1: Player A books time (nothing new there)
2: Check in is done (this could be taken away from the pro and done on booking system/app).
3: Partner of Player A is sent scorecard at random
4: Partner puts in score on their app instead of scorecard
5: end of round, partner sends completed card to Player A (button on app to do this)
6: player A ensures score is correct and submits score to the system (on their app)

All can be done on own device, no need for logging in to somebody elses account. I'd imagine some work would be needed on the backend for this to be done.

The NR would come in where marker has sent Player A the score, and Player A hasnt submitted the score themselves.

Hope that makes sense

It does thanks. Afaik, currently available systems can do everything up to 4 above. 5 and 6 are problematic.

If we could get that implemented it would be a really great help in the current situation

Mushy

prawnsambo wrote: »

It does thanks. Afaik, currently available systems can do everything up to 4 above. 5 and 6 are problematic.

If we could get that implemented it would be a really great help in the current situation

Yeah would definitely take some work, but should be easily manageable too. Not in time for comps next month, but over time. Somebody techy would have to do it, id be useless at that part

pinkdoubleeagle

pakman wrote: »

If anyone is in doubt as to whether there are people who will act badly, leading to us all getting no golf, then here is your example.

Not being satisfied with just one course and willing to break the rules because "its been too long" or "not swung a club since March" as though that's somehow a unique circumstance.

He is trolling

prawnsambo

Mushy wrote: »

Yeah would definitely take some work, but should be easily manageable too. Not in time for comps next month, but over time. Somebody techy would have to do it, id be useless at that part

It needs a few things to be fair. The rules would need to change to allow for this and (probably) existing providers would need to implement it. As it is, the implementations have only gone as far as they have due to the providers adding them as a feature rather than a requirement. Probably a separate rule set for electronic systems that exist in parallel with paper systems.

Kingswood Rover

Russell D. Woodcock wrote: »

There's not a bloody chance in hell I'll be sticking to the 5km.


Haven't swung a club on a course since early March. I'm a member of three clubs, all of which are well outside the 5km and I hope to have a round on each one before the end of the month. The furthest away is 60km each way and wild horses couldn't stop me going for a round.



Looking forward to it. It's been far too ruddy long.

"I've reached the twilight of my years, and I've found myself becoming somewhat introspective, ruminating over my own life and the choices I've made. I've committed some downright roguish acts over the years and while I don't regret a single one of them, it did make me wonder if a predisposition for dishonorable behaviour was somewhat ingrained in my human spirit?" One of your previous posts says it all

Stacksey

HighLine wrote: »

I seen these in action this morning whilst being tested at my club. I know they have been posted previously but they work very well. A clever, simple solution.

https://twitter.com/WicklowGolfClub/status/1261256373607727104?s=20

i think its important clubs become a little innovative in this regard as when green fee's are allowed for the public they will want to play somewhere here as opposed to a club where your trying to hit a bit of plastic around the rim

pakman

pinkdoubleeagle wrote: »

He is trolling

Yeah there were few comments saying as much but got deleted maybe. I fed the trolls

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes. But how is that confirmed? And my question refers to currently available (specific to golf) and in use technology btw, not some future implementation.

Well I don't know every current implementation, but there is no current tech limitation here.
Marker submits score to player (equivalent of them signing)
Player confirms their score and submits it back. (their signing)

What confirmation is missing that exists today?

That the player has certified their score and confirmed that the marker has also certified it. (2) 2 and 4.

as above

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Well I don't know every current implementation, but there is no current tech limitation here.
Marker submits score to player (equivalent of them signing)
Player confirms their score and submits it back. (their signing)

What confirmation is missing that exists today?

as above

Well yeah, Mushy outlined that sort of system above. Just not implemented right now and the rule book doesn't currently allow for it.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well yeah, Mushy outlined that sort of system above. Just not implemented right now and the rule book doesn't currently allow for it.

I still don't see how the rule book doesn't allow it?

Which of the rules do you not think is met? You said "confirmed" earlier, but that can be confirmed just as much as the current system...

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

I still don't see how the rule book doesn't allow it?

Which of the rules do you not think is met? You said "confirmed" earlier, but that can be confirmed just as much as the current system...

For a start, there's no mention of electronic methods, just the 'scorecard'. The electronic alternative needs to be defined. Acceptable methods of 'certifying' a score need to be defined. How to deal with failures on submission or authentication need to be outlined. Whether the actual scorecard is required or not as a backup. And that's just off the top of my head. I've been around this barbecue before in another sport.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

For a start, there's no mention of electronic methods, just the 'scorecard'. The electronic alternative needs to be defined. Acceptable methods of 'certifying' a score need to be defined. How to deal with failures on submission or authentication need to be outlined. Whether the actual scorecard is required or not as a backup. And that's just off the top of my head. I've been around this barbecue before in another sport.

I think "scorecard" covers electronic scorecard until decided otherwise, you could also have them printed in the clubhouse if you need a paper copy.

There is no definition of "certifying" today, so I don't see how you can say that doing it electronically is somehow invalid?

blue note

A very minor annoyance I'll have with the electronic scorecard is that it'll mean everyone will have their phones out during the rounds now. And there's no way that people won't suddenly start checking that whatsapp video that came through, sending a quick reply to whatever message, etc when they notice the notifications. I like at the moment that my phone goes into the bag before I tee off and comes out before I get back into my car.

The idea of a live leaderboard is fun though. I could see that lads crumbling when they realise that they've 36 points on the 18th tee and a two pointer could be a winning score!

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

A very minor annoyance I'll have with the electronic scorecard is that it'll mean everyone will have their phones out during the rounds now. And there's no way that people won't suddenly start checking that whatsapp video that came through, sending a quick reply to whatever message, etc when they notice the notifications. I like at the moment that my phone goes into the bag before I tee off and comes out before I get back into my car.

The idea of a live leaderboard is fun though. I could see that lads crumbling when they realise that they've 36 points on the 18th tee and a two pointer could be a winning score!

Visible leaderboard would give the late starters a big advantage...

ridonkulous

GreeBo wrote: »

Visible leaderboard would give the late starters a big advantage...

It'd be great craic though and as an early starter I would have no issue with it.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

Visible leaderboard would give the late starters a big advantage...

I don't think for us amateurs it would. I know Jack nicklaus used to have a number in his head going out that he felt he'd need to shoot to win, but for the majority of us while we might think the same way we don't have it in us to shoot a comfortable 36 points going out.

It would be a bit of an advantage for someone in one of the last few groups of they're able to see they can two putt the last for a win, but even if someone could see that they just need three bogeys to win - what effect would that have? Without the knowledge they'd probability get that score anyway. With the knowledge there's every chance they'll play for bogeys and end up making a double.

I think on average people would be better off not knowing where they stand and just playing their normal game.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

I don't think for us amateurs it would. I know Jack nicklaus used to have a number in his head going out that he felt he'd need to shoot to win, but for the majority of us while we might think the same way we don't have it in us to shoot a comfortable 36 points going out.

It would be a bit of an advantage for someone in one of the last few groups of they're able to see they can two putt the last for a win, but even if someone could see that they just need three bogeys to win - what effect would that have? Without the knowledge they'd probability get that score anyway. With the knowledge there's every chance they'll play for bogeys and end up making a double.

I think on average people would be better off not knowing where they stand and just playing their normal game.

I'd disagree on that, I'd always want to know where I am in a comp if possible, would change attitude on any risk/reward holes or shots, especially near the end of the round

(Not to say that it wouldnt lead me to bottle it mind you)

Golfgraffix

GreeBo wrote: »

Does the app allow you to see your own score all the time? (the one that your marker is entering)
Or does it allow you to see all "current" scores...which would be good and bad!

No, it’s not a live card. You put your score in after your round. We found doing it live added 12 minutes per round, also lots of course have connection issues.

Once the round is complete it’s sent straight to handicapmaster or can be exported as csv for import


https://vimeo.com/408818646

Golfgraffix

prawnsambo wrote: »

The problem with electronic scorecards is that there's still no way to sign them. I've yet to see an implementation that does this definitively.

In other news, it seems that there will be no last minute change to the relaxation on Monday.

Our one can’t be submitted with out a players name a the scorer. This has to be typed not selected from a list of names. Only once it signed can it be sent to handicapmaster. r&a happy with a verbal communication agreement to the scores being signed for

Golfgraffix

Mushy wrote: »

Essentially systems would need to be improved. I think the system should be tied in to your booking though. So something like this:

1: Player A books time (nothing new there)
2: Check in is done (this could be taken away from the pro and done on booking system/app).
3: Partner of Player A is sent scorecard at random
4: Partner puts in score on their app instead of scorecard
5: end of round, partner sends completed card to Player A (button on app to do this)
6: player A ensures score is correct and submits score to the system (on their app)

All can be done on own device, no need for logging in to somebody elses account. I'd imagine some work would be needed on the backend for this to be done.

The NR would come in where marker has sent Player A the score, and Player A hasnt submitted the score themselves.

Hope that makes sense

Good idea but the only real way to that is on a native app and only 75% of golfers will use a native app. Believe me I know

Golfgraffix

happy to get a test to antobe who wants it

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

I think "scorecard" covers electronic scorecard until decided otherwise, you could also have them printed in the clubhouse if you need a paper copy.

There is no definition of "certifying" today, so I don't see how you can say that doing it electronically is somehow invalid?

You quoted the rule above. You certify by signing it. You're just arguing for the sake of it.

prawnsambo

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Good idea but the only real way to that is on a native app and only 75% of golfers will use a native app. Believe me I know

Yeah. Parallel running with scorecards is the only method of catching all golfers. Or a rule change that changes how scores are certified. Can't see that happening unless it's forced.

johntommy

Just got email from my club. The captain and lady captain both wishing members well for next week and to adhere to travel restrictions. Neither will be playing as they both outside 5km restrictions.