GUI Statement - Mod warning #1

thewobbler

Break80 wrote: »

I think this will fracture the club atmosphere
for years to come reading the posts on this and another thread.
I have stated my views that this restriction was flawed but i received emails from my club to respect the law which I will do. I don't care what other members will do.
My problem is myself and other posters were told in black and white terms why our views were wrong and thats that.
I hope those same black and white opinions will be expressed to committees Monday morning if it's seen thier clubs are facilitating law breakers by allowing them to play.

Fractures are prone to happen when people try to force a very grey subject into black and white boxes.

If you’re one of those people, you are one of the causes of fracture.

Carazy

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The reasons golfers are giving for breaking the law are very weak, eg I have to travel this far for the shop anyway - food is essential, golf isn't, and everyone else is doing it, so I will too and the Irish attitude of 'these laws don't apply to me, just every one else'.
.........
My second issue is golf and the attitude it portrays that we are the honest sport and we call penalties on ourselves, we don't tolerate cheating and we look down on soccer players diving etc. The reality is that golfers are cheats too, not a big number but more then enough, we all know the cheats, the handicap cheats and the clubs that tolerate the handicap cheats.

Here was an opportunity to show the honesty, to implement a law of the land but the GUI, and the vast majority of clubs have run a mile from it, saying we trust golfers and it's not up to us to police it. It's pretty clear that many golfers couldn't be trusted to keep the law.

Here are the questions that clubs have to answer.

1. What do you do when a golfer inside 5k can't play because the sheet has a significant number outside 5k on it?
2. What do you do if some outside the 5k brings the virus to the club? It's unlikely, but what if?
3. What do you say to the family who has been stuck inside for 8 weeks, has had job loss, exam stress and maybe even the unfortunate loss of a loved one and no funeral to go to that they can't go 15k to the beach/hike but golfers can travel to play golf?
4. Some clubs have restrictions on how many times golfers can play and are policing this, but you won't go a little extra to police where they are coming from? Do you really expect the guards to waste valuable resources to do it when you could take the burden from them?
5. You have been putting up social media posts about supporting frontline workers and the HSE but you're now allowing golfers to break the law and potentially increase the spread?
6. How can your committee members send out a communication to say to stay away but not stay away themselves?
7. Other organisations have told their clubs to turn people away from outside 5k and it's the clubs responsibility to do so, why didn't the GUI do the same?

Shiv, that was a brilliant post. It really highlights the issue at hand and why it has spilled over two threads.

I agree wholeheartedly with you and it is so disappointing that the GUI, some clubs and lots of players are going against the laws next week.

It's going to be a real kick in the face to the frontline workers from some golf clubs and players outside their 5km

Just Saying

thewobbler wrote: »

Fractures are prone to happen when people try to force a very grey subject into black and white boxes.

If you’re one of those people, you are one of the causes of fracture.

What's grey about it?

GreeBo

Carazy wrote: »

Shiv, that was a brilliant post. It really highlights the issue at hand and why it has spilled over two threads.

I agree wholeheartedly with you and it is so disappointing that the GUI, some clubs and lots of players are going against the laws next week.

It's going to be a real kick in the face to the frontline workers from some golf clubs and players outside their 5km

The GUI went against the law?

GreeBo

Our members were asked not to play more than 3 times per week after 70+ people were down 4+ times in a 5 day period.

Lots of over 70s down to play, not sure on 5km+ but there are definitely some.

Rackstar

I can just imagine the golf club car parks on Monday morning.

Inside 5km v outside 5km

CalamariFritti

A bit of a stretch to say GUI and clubs are going against the law. Not just a bit of a stretch but really way off the mark.

The GUI put together a 'protocol' that is the most overzealous piece of self policing I ever saw. Half the stuff they're doing there, the law didn't even ask them to go this far.
As for clubs? Does your club ask if you broke the speed limit on your way there?

I know all our nerves are a bit stretched these days but lets not get carried away

idle

Fair play to all those golfers living >5km from their club who’ve decided to play golf next week. They should be congratulated for deciding to go enjoy a round of golf and refusing to remain locked in their homes like a lot of the sheep on here who’d feel much more at home in North Korea

Carazy

https://mobile.twitter.com/Garymurphy62/status/1261700837556064259

Carazy

idle wrote: »

Fair play to all those golfers living >5km from their club who’ve decided to play golf next week. They should be congratulated for deciding to go enjoy a round of golf and refusing to remain locked in their homes like a lot of the sheep on here who’d feel much more at home in North Korea

Self-entitlement is what it is.

Break80

GreeBo wrote: »

Our members were asked not to play more than 3 times per week after 70+ people were down 4+ times in a 5 day period.

Lots of over 70s down to play, not sure on 5km+ but there are definitely some.

Will you be expressing your opinion to all concerned knowing there will be lawbreakers [Your Words] on the course?

morrga

The reason why this is creating civil war is the govt failed to recognise that opening golf clubs is the same as opening building sites. Golfers and builders are the first steps towards getting the economy going again. This is more than just an exercise debate. It’s about economics and ensuring golf clubs remain viable

Yes people are dying but we were always going to face the difficult decision of crossing economic and health policies.

We have to learn to live with the disease otherwise economic and mental health will become a far bigger virus than we are currently dealing with.

It’s an impossible topic to generate agreement on and I just hope it doesnt split clubs down the middle next week.

mjsc1970

CalamariFritti wrote: »

A bit of a stretch to say GUI and clubs are going against the law. Not just a bit of a stretch but really way off the mark.

The GUI put together a 'protocol' that is the most overzealous piece of self policing I ever saw. Half the stuff they're doing there, the law didn't even ask them to go this far.
As for clubs? Does your club ask if you broke the speed limit on your way there?

I know all our nerves are a bit stretched these days but lets not get carried away

Have to agree with you there. Let's not get carried away.

3ball every 14 mins and full day timesheets. People distancing in car parks and limited amount of people on the course at any one time, albeit all day. Loads of space as long as no one acts the maggot.

And it'll calm down in a while after all the excitement is over. Yes there will be over 70s and I guess some will breach the 5km. Be grand.

I'll have the evenings to meself from June 8th, I'll wait till then.

almostover

Carazy wrote: »

Shiv, that was a brilliant post. It really highlights the issue at hand and why it has spilled over two threads.

I agree wholeheartedly with you and it is so disappointing that the GUI, some clubs and lots of players are going against the laws next week.

It's going to be a real kick in the face to the frontline workers from some golf clubs and players outside their 5km

What a load of rubbish. It's the responsibility of the GUI that once on the course that golf is conducted in the safest manner possible. It's the responsibility of each and every citizen to comply with the 5km restriction and it is the sole responsibility of the Gardai to police the restriction. Hardware stores are hardly going to ask people where they travelled from come Monday? It's not their business. They are responsibly to provide a safe shopping environment and that's it. The curtain twitching going on is farcical.

Break80

CalamariFritti wrote: »

A bit of a stretch to say GUI and clubs are going against the law. Not just a bit of a stretch but really way off the mark.

The GUI put together a 'protocol' that is the most overzealous piece of self policing I ever saw. Half the stuff they're doing there, the law didn't even ask them to go this far.
As for clubs? Does your club ask if you broke the speed limit on your way there?

I know all our nerves are a bit stretched these days but lets not get carried away

My point is all through this and the last thread there was no leeway whatsoever for any differing opinion regarding the 5k restriction.
The same posters seem to be happy to play golf and support a club which will be faciillating the same people they were shouting down on these threads the past few weeks.

almostover

RGS wrote: »

It's not a club committees job to police the laws of the land. That's the sole responsibility of an garda siochana.
Going forward should the secretary inform members to pay their motor tax, ensure their car is ncted.
Advise them to obey the speed limits, drink driving laws etc.
That would only open a whole can of worms.

Well said, the committee is there to police the rules of golf and nothing more.

h2005

Should supermarkets be policing how far people have come from and what other supermarkets may have been nearer? It’s an absolute nonsense to suggest golf clubs should be policing the 5K. For those suggesting it how would they police this?

Carazy

Golf, the sport that is self policed by the player yet the timesheets for next week show golfers (and club committees) ignorance to the government's guidelines for the unprecedented health pandemic that has greeted us.

CalamariFritti

Break80 wrote: »

My point is all through this and the last thread there was no leeway whatsoever for any differing opinion regarding the 5k restriction.
The same posters seem to be happy to play golf and support a club which will be faciillating the same people they were shouting down on these threads the past few weeks.

Sorry I don't fully understand your post.

Me personally I live under 2km from my club but tbh I am looking forward to play with my friends again including the ones that live outside 5km. I dare say the risk of them playing is virtually zero.

And tbh is has been all along. Outdoor activity with distancing and not touching anything. Come on.
We got ourselves into this frenzy where a lot of us don't see the woods from trees anymore. And I cant blame them. Its been nothing but fear fear fear from government and media. Jesus I get scared just from looking at your man George Lee.

hurikane

Carazy wrote: »

Golf, the sport that is self policed by the player yet the timesheets for next week show golfers (and club committees) ignorance to the government's guidelines for the unprecedented health pandemic that has greeted us.

Your post makes no sense. You talk about self policing and then club committees ignorance.

billy3sheets

hurikane wrote: »

Your post makes no sense. You talk about self policing and then club committees ignorance.

I think @carazy is pointing out how golfers religiously self-police the rules of golf yet are prepared to bend or break the Covid-19 regulations set out by the government. I can see the point being made.

RGS

What amazes me is the number of people who are castigating people who may travel more than 5km to play golf and talking about the "honour of golfers". I presume all the complainers have complied with all rules and laws at all times;
Never broke a red light, never broke a speed limit, never drove a car without an upto date tax and nct certificate. Never drunk whilst over the drink drive limit.
It appears this 5km limit is the only rule that must never broken.

The biblical quote he who is without sin should caste the first stone springs to mind..

hurikane

billy3sheets wrote: »

I think @carazy is pointing out how golfers religiously self-police the rules of golf yet are prepared to bend or break the Covid-19 regulations set out by the government. I can see the point being made.

Self policing is one thing and people should be, but committees enforcing the 5km law is another, and unrealistic.

Just Saying

RGS wrote: »

It's not a club committees job to police the laws of the land. That's the sole responsibility of an garda siochana.
Going forward should the secretary inform members to pay their motor tax, ensure their car is ncted.
Advise them to obey the speed limits, drink driving laws etc.
That would only open a whole can of worms.

That is a ridiculous argument.People who commit road traffic offences do so on public property.

Golfers who travel more than 5km to play golf are breaking the law on golf club property.

Just Saying

hurikane wrote: »

Self policing is one thing and people should be, but committees enforcing the 5km law is another, and unrealistic.

There are clubs who are policing it which means it is absolutely realistic.You dont need to be Einstein to figure out how to do it.

hurikane

Just Saying wrote: »

That is a ridiculous argument.People who commit road traffic offences do so on public property.

Golfers who travel more than 5km to play golf are breaking the law on golf club property.

Well technically they’d be breaking it before they get to the club. So at that point, who’s responsibility is it to uphold the law?

RGS

Just Saying wrote: »

That is a ridiculous argument.People who commit road traffic offences do so on public property.

Golfers who travel more than 5km to play golf are breaking the law on golf club property.

Thats a ridiculous retort.
They are travelling on the public road not on private property. A golf club cannot stop any member of the public driving to their club be they travelling 10 or 4km.
This 5km limit is a rule of law not a gui rule therefore the state ie the garda are responsible.

hurikane

Just Saying wrote: »

There are clubs who are policing it which means it is absolutely realistic.You dont need to be Einstein to figure out how to do it.

Well I suppose you’d have to be Einstein to realise that clubs have no law enforcement responsibility.

thewobbler

Just Saying wrote: »

What's grey about it?

Let’s work these scenarios.

1. The back edge of my garden is 4.98k as the crow flies from the outer edge of my club. But it requires a 6.1k spin in the car to reach the club.

2. My club has an extensive driveway, over 1k in length. My house is 4.9k from the gates, and 5.9k from the clubhouse.

3. My house actually backs onto the outer edge of my sprawling golf course. Some of the tee boxes and greens are within 5k, but the clubhouse isn’t, nor is the entrance.

4. Same as number 3, except the clubhouse is also within the 5k limit... but the club entrance is not.

5. I live 5.1k from my course.

6. Shortcuts and alleys mean I can walk less than 5k to my club. But driving makes it 5.4k.


———

And that’s before we bring in the over 70s.

———-

The law means well here but scenarios like those above does create some greyness, the type of which means Gardai will need to exercise common sense at checkpoints. I expect that unless you run into an “anti golf” Garda, there will be an innate tolerance for anyone within 10k; largely to prevent arguments over routes, flying crows, and golf course perimeters.

——-

This is not a black and white issue.

billy3sheets

RGS wrote: »

What amazes me is the number of people who are castigating people who may travel more than 5km to play golf and talking about the "honour of golfers". I presume all the complainers have complied with all rules and laws at all times;
Never broke a red light, never broke a speed limit, never drove a car without an upto date tax and nct certificate. Never drunk whilst over the drink drive limit.
It appears this 5km limit is the only rule that must never broken.

The biblical quote he who is without sin should caste the first stone springs to mind..

Not buying it. This debate is very focused on next week and breaching the 5k limit. If you break any of the laws you mention above, then you accept that if you get caught then you accept the penalty that comes with it. The difference now is that some golfers see the 5km rule as one they expect the guards to turn a blind eye to. And I'm not talking about the edge cases. There are lots of golfers much further than 5km away who are going to play, including some of my best friends. And I'm not judging them morally because I'm undecided myself. But I would be very upset if I caught them breaking the rules of golf deliberately.