GUI Statement - Mod warning #1

billy3sheets

hurikane wrote: »

Self policing is one thing and people should be, but committees enforcing the 5km law is another, and unrealistic.

Again, I don't think @carazy is advocating club committees policing the 5km rule but merely pointing out that committee members who help to police golf at their club are flaunting the 5km rule goodoo.

joebloggs32

RGS wrote: »

What amazes me is the number of people who are castigating people who may travel more than 5km to play golf and talking about the "honour of golfers". I presume all the complainers have complied with all rules and laws at all times;
Never broke a red light, never broke a speed limit, never drove a car without an upto date tax and nct certificate. Never drunk whilst over the drink drive limit.
It appears this 5km limit is the only rule that must never broken.

The biblical quote he who is without sin should caste the first stone springs to mind..

I once won a debate where the question posed was it ever OK to break the law at any stage.
I only used one line to win over about 90% of the attendees. I was on the side arguing that there was nothing wrong with breaking the law sometimes.

The one sentence was simple. If you like me ever had an after hours drink in a pub then you are automatically on my side.

The 5k rule is there to stop hoardes if people descending on scenic spots like glendalough again. The members only rule with timesheet restrictions ensures adequate social distancing. However the government didn't want to be seen to let people who ay an "elitist" sport got a concession as it wouldn't want the Paul Murphy brigade banging the drum about it.
If the government was really worried about golfers breaking the 5k rule I'm sure they would have made sure that the GUI was very explicit about it in its guidelines.

doublej

I’m responsible for my actions, whether they relate to golf, fidelity or the obedience to the laws of the land.

I’m not a saint but I’d like to think that the majority of my conscious actions and decisions do not impact negatively on my fellow citizens.

I know that the majority of golf clubs will next week have a significant number of members playing that will have come from a distance greater than a 5mile radius from their home.

I know that a number of members will be disappointed that the hierarchy within the Club have not made a greater effort to police and enforce the law.

What I genuinely don’t know is how such policing and enforcement would be carried out within the law and compatible to the Rules and Bye Laws of the Club.

For a number of years I have served on the Management Committee of our Club.
I know the calibre of our voluntary members and willingness to work for the betterment of the Club is incredibly varied.

I will not play for the next 3 weeks because I live 7k from my club. Both my wife and my 22 year old daughter have membership of the Club but did not even consider accessing the timesheet, despite the fact that a large number of their golfing buddies were going out, some from inside, others from outside the 5km radius.

I would never expect my club to police or attempt to enforce the law as I could see how time-consuming, confrontational and ultimately ruinous to the long term viability of the Club such actions would be.

Do we believe it to be within a Clubs legal duties to access the address of any member, guest or visitor to confirm that they can legally play on the course? Was it for this purpose that members provided their personal data to the Club when they joined and can every Club lay their hand on the consent sheet that was provided to the Club by the member allowing the data to be used for such a purpose?
Who is to carry out this function?
Is it a volunteer fellow member, or one of the paid administrative staff that will be tasked with trawling through the timesheets, paying attention to any changes to the timesheets that occur every day to capture the newcomers, access their personal details, confirm the address to be in or out and then what?
Remove their name without contacting them?
Contact them to get confirmation that their home address as per Club files is up to date and correct and then take “appropriate” action?
Perhaps it is envisaged that “someone” in the Club will be designated to be the “eligibility warden”, whose job is to turn people away from the Car Park or First Tee or from the course if they are provided with confirmation that the person has travelled more than the legally proscribed distance that day to play.

It is very easy to say “the Clubs should be doing more”, I’ll ask you, how often have you put your name forward to serve your fellow members for no other ulterior motive other than adhering to the principal of helping your Club.

An earlier post suggested that it wasn’t black or white; it actually is. Every member, on the course and off the course is fully responsible for their actions, and no amount of obfuscation, whataboutery or ducking, dodging and diving can remove the individual player/member from that fundamental principle of life.

Keep safe

GreeBo

Break80 wrote: »

My point is all through this and the last thread there was no leeway whatsoever for any differing opinion regarding the 5k restriction.
The same posters seem to be happy to play golf and support a club which will be faciillating the same people they were shouting down on these threads the past few weeks.

Leeway by and for whom? The gardai enforce laws, if you want leeway then you need to talk to them.
Supporting a club? Why wouldn't you support your club?

Unless you are playing in stackstown, enforcing laws h as nothing to do with your members.

You need to stop looking for permission to break the laws from people who don't enforce or define laws.

GreeBo

billy3sheets wrote: »

I think @carazy is pointing out how golfers religiously self-police the rules of golf yet are prepared to bend or break the Covid-19 regulations set out by the government. I can see the point being made.

But that's basically saying that golfers should also be preventing atrocities in the Middle East. You golfers are either policing all the rules or you are not!

Golfers police the rules of golf, that's it.

GreeBo

Just Saying wrote: »

That is a ridiculous argument.People who commit road traffic offences do so on public property.

Golfers who travel more than 5km to play golf are breaking the law on golf club property.

Well no, because they broke the law before they got to the golf club.

GreeBo

thewobbler wrote: »

Let’s work these scenarios.

1. The back edge of my garden is 4.98k as the crow flies from the outer edge of my club. But it requires a 6.1k spin in the car to reach the club.

2. My club has an extensive driveway, over 1k in length. My house is 4.9k from the gates, and 5.9k from the clubhouse.

3. My house actually backs onto the outer edge of my sprawling golf course. Some of the tee boxes and greens are within 5k, but the clubhouse isn’t, nor is the entrance.

4. Same as number 3, except the clubhouse is also within the 5k limit... but the club entrance is not.

5. I live 5.1k from my course.

6. Shortcuts and alleys mean I can walk less than 5k to my club. But driving makes it 5.4k.


———

And that’s before we bring in the over 70s.

———-

The law means well here but scenarios like those above does create some greyness, the type of which means Gardai will need to exercise common sense at checkpoints. I expect that unless you run into an “anti golf” Garda, there will be an innate tolerance for anyone within 10k; largely to prevent arguments over routes, flying crows, and golf course perimeters.

——-

This is not a black and white issue.

You are inventing grey areas.
If at any time you leave a 5km circle around your house then you can't play, black if you will.
If you remain within it, then you can play, aka white.

There is no grey area.

Carazy

I think the speeding and tax,nct analogy aren't really comparable as the club committees won't have known the offence occurred.

The point is that club committees have noted that their timesheets are full for the past number of days and know in advance that a large number of their members are prepared to break the restrictions brought in at this time of a global pandemic.
It must be noted that these rules are emergency rules for this period of time and comparing them to the speed,nct etc is not the same (in my view).

The fact remains that clubs have applauded frontline workers for weeks and now they know with little doubt that a lot of members are going to go against the emergency health laws from Monday onwards.

This advance notice of wholesale non compliance that clubs and committees are aware of and not in any way trying to rectify is disappointing and really lacks leadership.

almostover

GreeBo wrote: »

Well no, because they broke the law before they got to the golf club.

I've yet to be turned away from playing golf because I was speeding whilst driving there. Inside the gates of the club the GUI is responsible for setting the rules and the club committee for policing them. Outside the gates is the jurisdiction of An Garda Siochana.

Blud

Well here goes.

1. What do you do when a golfer inside 5k can't play because the sheet has a significant number outside 5k on it?

Strawman. Point me to one known example of someone who couldn't get on the timesheet next week because of people outside the 5km limit taking all the spots.

We are years listening to golf clubs struggling, membership declining etc. Now we have clubs that cant fit people in at a rate of 14 an hour across a whole week. Nonsense.

2. What do you do if some outside the 5k brings the virus to the club? It's unlikely, but what if?

What does this even mean, brings the virus to the club? I presume you mean someone asymptomatic infects others? Your question is directed at the club, why would the club get involved? Clubs dont get infected, people do. What does Lidl do in that circumstance?

3. What do you say to the family who has been stuck inside for 8 weeks, has had job loss, exam stress and maybe even the unfortunate loss of a loved one and no funeral to go to that they can't go 15k to the beach/hike but golfers can travel to play golf?

Another strawman. Firstly, golfers are not allowed to travel more than 5km for golf, I think that heads off the rest of the gulf.

But anyway, what does a golf club say to people not involved in golf? Nothing I'd imagine. Use your emotive language about loved ones and funerals all you like, we are talking about golf here.

4. Some clubs have restrictions on how many times golfers can play and are policing this, but you won't go a little extra to police where they are coming from? Do you really expect the guards to waste valuable resources to do it when you could take the burden from them?

Restrictions on how many times golfers can play might be introduced by golf clubs themselves, so within their remit to enforce. Legislative restrictions are not.

Do you really want unqualified citizens enforcing the law of the land? Think that through, it is mental, an objectively mad point of view. That's before you even think of liability issues.

5. You have been putting up social media posts about supporting frontline workers and the HSE but you're now allowing golfers to break the law and potentially increase the spread?

Golf clubs are not allowing golfers to break the law. The advice is clear. People break the law, they are not allowed to do so by anyone.

6. How can your committee members send out a communication to say to stay away but not stay away themselves?

Great question, individuals breaking the law in those positions should be accountable for same but only to the golf club and the position they hold in same.

7. Other organisations have told their clubs to turn people away from outside 5k and it's the clubs responsibility to do so, why didn't the GUI do the same?

The GUI guidance is clear, but they have not gone as far as other organisations. It is more of a question for other organisations I think in how they think they can enforce it and if the person enforcing is suitably qualified. That's a minefield, your average golf club would struggle.

Blud

Carazy wrote: »

I think the speeding and tax,nct analogy aren't really comparable as the club committees won't have known the offence occurred.

What about the lad that has 10 pints in the club after his round and then jumps in the car?

Carazy

Blud wrote: »

The GUI guidance is clear, but they have not gone as far as other organisations.

If their guidance was clear we wouldn't have this huge thread.......

hurikane

Carazy wrote: »

I think the speeding and tax,nct analogy aren't really comparable as the club committees won't have known the offence occurred.

The point is that club committees have noted that their timesheets are full for the past number of days and know in advance that a large number of their members are prepared to break the restrictions brought in at this time of a global pandemic.
It must be noted that these rules are emergency rules for this period of time and comparing them to the speed,nct etc is not the same (in my view).

The fact remains that clubs have applauded frontline workers for weeks and now they know with little doubt that a lot of members are going to go against the emergency health laws from Monday onwards.

This advance notice of wholesale non compliance that clubs and committees are aware of and not in any way trying to rectify is disappointing and really lacks leadership.

You’ve got yourself mixed up again, you speak about rules and laws. Rules are for committees, committees deal with aspects of the playing of the game of golf. Laws are for an Garda Síochána to to uphold and for members of society to abide by.

Blud

Carazy wrote: »

If their guidance was clear we wouldn't have this huge thread.......

It is clear, the huge thread is about lads complaining that they wanted more, and giving out about people breaking the law.

If I was a garda I'd be ringing clubs on monday morning and asking them to retain a list of who checked in to play. Quick look at names, a letter to each over 5km with a fine.

The gardai need to enforce the law, not the clubs.

Carazy

Clubs have their head in the sand with the spirit of this law at the time of a national health crisis.

It is very disappointing that only some clubs in Ireland have done the correct thing.

Blatant disregard for all the good work that has been done up and down the country.

The honorable committees have never needed strong leadership more so than now.

prawnsambo

thewobbler wrote: »

Let’s work these scenarios.

1. The back edge of my garden is 4.98k as the crow flies from the outer edge of my club. But it requires a 6.1k spin in the car to reach the club.

2. My club has an extensive driveway, over 1k in length. My house is 4.9k from the gates, and 5.9k from the clubhouse.

3. My house actually backs onto the outer edge of my sprawling golf course. Some of the tee boxes and greens are within 5k, but the clubhouse isn’t, nor is the entrance.

4. Same as number 3, except the clubhouse is also within the 5k limit... but the club entrance is not.

5. I live 5.1k from my course.

6. Shortcuts and alleys mean I can walk less than 5k to my club. But driving makes it 5.4k.


———

And that’s before we bring in the over 70s.

———-

The law means well here but scenarios like those above does create some greyness, the type of which means Gardai will need to exercise common sense at checkpoints. I expect that unless you run into an “anti golf” Garda, there will be an innate tolerance for anyone within 10k; largely to prevent arguments over routes, flying crows, and golf course perimeters.

——-

This is not a black and white issue.

Your grey areas are usually answered by testing the spirit of the law. That can be done by the Gardai or the courts. An example we are all familiar with is speeding. The letter of the law says that you must not exceed the speed limit. The spirit of the law means that you are unlikely to be prosecuted if you exceed the speed limit by roughly 10%.

The law on travelling outside the 5Km loosely refers to the destination, and not the route: "exercise, either alone or with other persons residing in the relevant residence, within a 2 kilometre radius of that residence," (2Km has since been amended to 5Km). By the letter of the law, any part of your golf course outside the 5Km radius from your residence is outside your zone for exercise. It's also possible that if your route to your golf club takes you outside the 5Km zone, you can't go either.

Basically all those 'grey areas' would be interpreted by either the Gardai or the courts with regard to the spirit of the law. Much like doing 54Km in a 50Kph zone would be interpreted.

Long story short: As long as you're not completely taking the p1ss, you should be ok. But every so often you're going to meet a pointy pencil who'll work to the letter of the law and you'll be turned back.

hurikane

Carazy wrote: »

Clubs have their head in the sand with the spirit of this law at the time of a national health crisis.

It is very disappointing that only some clubs in Ireland have done the correct thing.

Blatant disregard for all the good work that has been done up and down the country.

The honorable committees have never needed strong leadership more so than now.

This is hilarious.

I think you should blame filling stations, selling these golfers fuel enabling them to travel more than 5km. Or the electricity providers for allowing people to charge their cars and travel further than 5km. Or the car manufacturers for providing the transport.

Whatever you do, don’t put the responsibility on the individual that makes a conscious decision to break the law.

First Up

The 5k limit is based on the theory that the wider the area you cover, the greater the risk of contact/infection.
It is a crude instrument but in the circumstances an understandable one.

Driving 5.1 kilometres to play golf is no riskier than driving 4.9k to play golf. Driving 10k or 15k is no riskier either, if the whole journey is made inside a car. Similarly, someone carrying the virus is as big a risk to others no matter what distance they have traveled. The bit that matters is their behavior after they get out of their car at the club.

So that part of Shivas' argument is confused rubbish. People living more than 5k from their club can take a chance; if they hit a checkpoint they might be lucky enough to meet a Garda who waves them on, or they might be turned around. I won't be taking that risk and I'll wait until June 8th.

As for enforcement, I understand that one club (Druids Glen) has taken it upon themselves to police the timesheet and enforce the 5k limit. We'll see how members react to that; barring paid up members from exercising their right of access to the course could have some legal consequences. Its a potential minefield and I don't blame any club for not entering it.

Committees have zero jurisdiction in any of that. They can help remind people of the protocols while at the club but that's all.

Just Saying

GreeBo wrote: »

Well no, because they broke the law before they got to the golf club.

Their first point of breaking the law is when they first travel outside the 5km range.

They are continuing to do so(in 99% of cases) at the club property.

If you are caught doing 159km per hour it is not a defence to say you should have stopped me when I broke 120 km per hour 3km back the road.

the.red.baron

This is what you get when you cross computer nerds with golf nerds, the ultimate nerd

thewobbler

GreeBo wrote: »

You are inventing grey areas.
If at any time you leave a 5km circle around your house then you can't play, black if you will.
If you remain within it, then you can play, aka white.

There is no grey area.

If a Garda or a magistrate would pause to consider and evaluate what you’ve done, then of course there is a grey area.

It might not suit a black and white thinker to accept this. But even the most fastidious of those will from time to time take their own minor liberties with the law.

doublej

Blud wrote: »

What about the lad that has 10 pints in the club after his round and then jumps in the car?

There is a legal obligation upon all licensees to prevent such excessive consumption, therefore I would expect each golf club to obey and adhere to a law as it directs them to act in a particular fashion.

thewobbler

doublej wrote: »

There is a legal obligation upon all licensees to prevent such excessive consumption, therefore I would expect each golf club to obey and adhere to a law as it directs them to act in a particular fashion.

What about 6 pints then?

(Scratching my head at the nitpickery here)

hurikane

thewobbler wrote: »

What about 6 pints then?

(Scratching my head at the nitpickery here)

Six pints??? Are you mad, it’d be citizens arrest by the club president before they make it to the car park. Then the car would be towed and a €500 storage fee to be payed to the committee before it’s release.

CalamariFritti

the.red.baron wrote: »

This is what you get when you cross computer nerds with golf nerds, the ultimate nerd

Thanks for the compliment.

yawhat?

First Up wrote: »

The 5k limit is based on the theory that the wider the area you cover, the greater the risk of contact/infection.
It is a crude instrument but in the circumstances an understandable one.

Driving 5.1 kilometres to play golf is no riskier than driving 4.9k to play golf. Driving 10k or 15k is no riskier either, if the whole journey is made inside a car. Similarly, someone carrying the virus is as big a risk to others no matter what distance they have traveled. The bit that matters is their behavior after they get out of their car at the club.

So that part of Shivas' argument is confused rubbish. People living more than 5k from their club can take a chance; if they hit a checkpoint they might be lucky enough to meet a Garda who waves them on, or they might be turned around. I won't be taking that risk and I'll wait until June 8th.

As for enforcement, I understand that one club (Druids Glen) has taken it upon themselves to police the timesheet and enforce the 5k limit. We'll see how members react to that; barring paid up members from exercising their right of access to the course could have some legal consequences. Its a potential minefield and I don't blame any club for not entering it.

Committees have zero jurisdiction in any of that. They can help remind people of the protocols while at the club but that's all.

This is the problem. Telling somebody who is right that their argument is “confused rubbish”.

The risk for an individual of catching or spreading it may be tiny, but there is a risk. The risk inherent in travelling 10km versus 5km is smaller still, but it’s a still an increased risk. A tiny increase on an individual level.

Now apply the law of large numbers. Thousands of people doing it, the reality is it will increase the spread of the virus. By travelling over 5km for any non essential reason you are contributing to this.

Anybody contemplating giving over the 5km should think about it that way, and then try and justify it.

The GUI have been incredibly weak on this. While they are rightly not expected to enforce the 5km limit, they should have been clear from the outset that they didn’t condone the breaking of this rule. They weren’t, and a significant number of people took that to mean a blind eye would be turned to golfers breaking the 5km limit. They were forced to clarify their position on Friday, but this will have little impact. It certainly hasn’t resulted in anybody removing their name from the timesheet in my club.

CalamariFritti

So if we're setting aside the law and go by maths/risk then I think the following applies.

The increased risk of someone travelling 7.5 km to play golf over someone travelling 5km is virtually zero if not actually zero. A thousand times multiplied by zero is still zero.

Not advocating flouting the law but if we go down that argument then thats how I see it.

Rackstar

This thread can probably be summed up as:

Poster type 1. Lives within 5km of their club, couldn’t care less how far people are travelling as long as they keep their distance at the course.

Poster type 2. Lives outside the 5km, keeping their head down and will break the law.

Poster type 3. Lives outside the 5km, can’t bare to think that people will break the 5km and get a game of golf while they abide by the law. This outrage is driving them (nuts) to call for committees to uphold the law of the land and criticise the unions for not telling the committees to enforce laws.

I’m poster type 1, I can see my club from my kitchen.

billy3sheets

From the GUI statement :
Golf needs to demonstrate total compliance with the instructions laid out by the health authorities.
I presume that "golf" refers to players, clubs and governors.

kieran.

Rackstar wrote: »

This thread can probably be summed up as:

Poster type 1. Lives within 5km of their club, couldn’t care less how far people are travelling as long as they keep their distance at the course.

Poster type 2. Lives outside the 5km, keeping their head down and will break the law.

Poster type 3. Lives outside the 5km, can’t bare to think that people will break the 5km and get a game of golf while they abide by the law. This outrage is driving them (nuts) to call for committees to uphold the law of the land and criticise the unions for not telling the committees to enforce laws.

I’m poster type 1, I can see my club from my kitchen.

This is it in a nutshell.
I'm type 1 also.