GUI Statement - Mod warning #1

almostover

yawhat? wrote: »

25 lads rock up to golf club bar and say to the barman we’re all going to have six pints and drive home, throw us on the first pint there. The next day, the same thing happens. Do you think the golf club would permit this for 21 days In a row and do nothing?

If I choose to drink drive that was a failure of my own decision making and if I kill someone doing so I'd have nobody to blame only myself. The golf club would bear no responsibility. Sure I could drink 2 pints after a round and sit into the car, be over the limit and cause an accident. It's not their problem it's mine. Same with the 5km. If I drive from 6km radius from the course and pass COVID-19 to my playing partner it's my fault not the golf clubs. They put the measures in place to minimise the spread on the course. The government put the travel restrictions in place. We need to give up on the 5km argument and that golf clubs should be policing it, complete hogwash.

billybonkers

Any public courses in Dublin booking tee times? Silloge site not taking them yet. City council said it would be open to public from tomorrow

GreeBo

)

First Up wrote: »

Yes, but the logic of that extends to all travel, for any purpose. If the regulations allow for 5k or 20k, it doesn't matter if people are going to shop, play golf or anything else. In fact with time sheets, there is a better chance of tracking people at risk from a golf course than those shopping or walking around a busy park.

I am not objecting to any of the restrictions. I am pointing out that distance travelled for golf does not affect the risk of catching it. There is no more danger attached to playing tomorrow than on June 8th. And the guy who lives across the road from his club is no more immune than the guy who has driven 5 (or 20) kilometers.

Distance travelled (for golf) doesn't significantly increase chances of catching it or spreading it.
It significantly increases the distance it will spread.

Just Saying

GreeBo wrote: »

You can keep dancing around the point, but that doesn't change the facts.
Clubs have ZERO powers to enforce laws.

Incorrect.I know of at least 3 clubs who are enforcing them

GreeBo

Just Saying wrote: »

Incorrect.I know of at least 3 clubs who are enforcing them

It's not incorrect, it's a fact.
Under what powers are clubs enforcing a 5km limit?

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

)

Distance travelled (for golf) doesn't significantly increase chances of catching it or spreading it.
It significantly increases the distance it will spread.

Yes, but as I said above, that applies to all travel for any purpose.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

Yes, but as I said above, that applies to all travel for any purpose.

Indeed, which is why we have things like essential travel.

Non essential travel has various restrictions, golf amongst other sports has a 5KM limit imposed at the moment.

Raisins

GreeBo wrote: »

You can keep dancing around the point, but that doesn't change the facts.
Clubs have ZERO powers to enforce laws.

There’s no dancing you’re missing the point. It’s not about enforcing the law, it’s about taking actions in parallel with the law or that reflect the law.

The golf club has the power to pass its own regulations on all matters relevant to the club including access to the course. If the club decided it would not allow members to play for this 3 week period who were outside the 5km (because that happens to be against the law) the club could obviously do that. The clubs don’t want to do it for reasons that have been debated at length but let’s not pretend the clubs wouldn’t have the power to do it.

kieran.

Raisins wrote: »

There’s no dancing you’re missing the point. It’s not about enforcing the law, it’s about taking actions in parallel with the law or that reflect the law.

The golf club has the power to pass its own regulations on all matters relevant to the club including access to the course. If the club decided it would not allow members to play for this 3 week period who were outside the 5km (because that happens to be against the law) the club could obviously do that. The clubs don’t want to do it for reasons that have been debated at length but let’s not pretend the clubs wouldn’t have the power to do it.

The only way that my club could do that would be to create new catogries of membership (inside 5km & outside 5km). To do this they would have to amend the club constitution by holding an EGM and putting it to the membership.

Not as simple as you would think.

Just Saying

GreeBo wrote: »

It's not incorrect, it's a fact.
Under what powers are clubs enforcing a 5km limit?

You are the person stating it's a fact so I will let you come back to me next week to admit that it is actually not a fact.

One actually has been mentioned in public already.Both of the others are top 30 courses.

hurikane

Just Saying wrote: »

Incorrect.I know of at least 3 clubs who are enforcing them

Which 3 clubs? How are they enforcing?

Golfhead65

There is such a thing in law as a citizens arrest, you could arrest "The Lawbreakers and call call The Gardai to the course, sure that will go down like a lead ballon

Golfhead65

thewobbler wrote: »

Let’s work these scenarios.

1. The back edge of my garden is 4.98k as the crow flies from the outer edge of my club. But it requires a 6.1k spin in the car to reach the club.

2. My club has an extensive driveway, over 1k in length. My house is 4.9k from the gates, and 5.9k from the clubhouse.

3. My house actually backs onto the outer edge of my sprawling golf course. Some of the tee boxes and greens are within 5k, but the clubhouse isn’t, nor is the entrance.

4. Same as number 3, except the clubhouse is also within the 5k limit... but the club entrance is not.

5. I live 5.1k from my course.

6. Shortcuts and alleys mean I can walk less than 5k to my club. But driving makes it 5.4k.


———

And that’s before we bring in the over 70s.

———-

The law means well here but scenarios like those above does create some greyness, the type of which means Gardai will need to exercise common sense at checkpoints. I expect that unless you run into an “anti golf” Garda, there will be an innate tolerance for anyone within 10k; largely to prevent arguments over routes, flying crows, and golf course perimeters.

——-

This is not a black and white issue.

That's exactly predicament, by road and by crow flies, outside 5km by one and we'll inside by the other

First Up

GreeBo wrote:

Non essential travel has various restrictions, golf amongst other sports has a 5KM limit imposed at the moment.

The travel restrictions are for all non essential activity, sport and everything else. I doubt golf was on anyone's priority list when 5k was decided and the fact that it is one of the first activities to be allowed suggests it wasn't.

CalamariFritti

prawnsambo

Golfhead65 wrote: »

That's exactly predicament, by road and by crow flies, outside 5km by one and we'll inside by the other

Strictly interpreting the law, as long as you're inside the 5Km radius of your house on the drive to the golf club, you're not breaking the law, even if the drive is 10Km long.

Raisins

kieran. wrote: »

The only way that my club could do that would be to create new catogries of membership (inside 5km & outside 5km). To do this they would have to amend the club constitution by holding an EGM and putting it to the membership.

Not as simple as you would think.

I didn’t think you’d have to go that far in many clubs but I take your point I never said it would be a handy rule to bring in.

All I said is that it’s nonsense to argue clubs are powerless or that it’s about enforcing the law. It’s completely fair to argue the clubs and GUI did not show leadership.

Carazy

Good article below from Kevin Markham titled RESPECT.
https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-news/2020/05/16/r-e-s-p-e-c-t/

hurikane

Carazy wrote: »

Good article below from Kevin Markham titled RESPECT.
https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-news/2020/05/16/r-e-s-p-e-c-t/

Excellent nothing about clubs and committees becoming police forces.

prawnsambo

hurikane wrote: »

Excellent nothing about clubs and committees becoming police forces.

Well there is, but only in the negative: "Golf clubs aren't going to police the matter"

Stormyteacup

Carazy wrote: »

Good article below from Kevin Markham titled RESPECT.
https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-news/2020/05/16/r-e-s-p-e-c-t/

With respect, the first few paragraphs are reasonable, but it becomes incoherent under the points headings.

Point 1: 'Location of my Golf Course' - it was almost as though 8km ish was okay and 'no one is likely to get too tetchy about it and golf clubs aren’t going to police the matter', even though he doesn't advocate it of course, but travelling 20km was most definitely worse than 8km.

Point 2: No mention of the issue behind the whole 5km restriction to begin with - to avoid cross-community transmission, instead it's the fear of the media running with a story about a golfer being caught travelling further than 5km to their course.

Point 3: Over 70s - I thought it was clarified that the GUI was recommending over 70s don't play as it was not in accordance with government guidelines for over 70s (i.e. leave their house for exercise but avoid contact with other people).

prawnsambo

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Point 3: Over 70s - I thought it was clarified that the GUI was recommending over 70s don't play as it was not in accordance with government guidelines for over 70s (i.e. leave their house for exercise but avoid contact with other people).

He refers to a Q&A the GUI/ILGU did with Irish Golfer magazine and quotes from it. And before that, states that it's not entirely clear:


‘It is up to each individual to decide for themselves, based on their own circumstances, living arrangements and potential for contact with others at certain times, whether playing golf is compatible with the HSE’s advice on cocooning.’

First Up

Stormyteacup wrote: »

With respect, the first few paragraphs are reasonable, but it becomes incoherent under the points headings.



Point 3: Over 70s - I thought it was clarified that the GUI was recommending over 70s don't play as it was not in accordance with government guidelines for over 70s (i.e. leave their house for exercise but avoid contact with other people).

Here is the message from Golfnet about over 70s

https://www.golfnet.ie/news/golfnet/4670/clarification-on-travel-and-cocooning-in-relation-to-golf

It "does not recommend" over 70s playing golf (or tennis) but says it is not mandatory - it is advisory so individuals can make their own decisions.

kitkatman

i would be far more worried playing in the company of a health worker who has been dealing with the virus who may live inside the 5km limit than with a guy who lives 20km away and has been in lockdown for 2 months....you would have a better chance of contracting the virus from the former.


in fact if the goal is to prevent the spread perhaps a ban for the next 6 weeks of all involved with the health service from playing golf would be the way to advance, but of course common sense does not prevail.

the negative merchants commenting on the 5km limit would be better off worrying about themselves, other adults will make considered decisions themselves.

prawnsambo

kitkatman wrote: »

i would be far more worried playing in the company of a health worker who has been dealing with the virus who may live inside the 5km limit than with a guy who lives 20km away and has been in lockdown for 2 months....you would have a better chance of contracting the virus from the former.

in fact if the goal is to prevent the spread perhaps a ban for the next 6 weeks of all involved with the health service from playing golf would be the way to advance, but of course common sense does not prevail.

the negative merchants commenting on the 5km limit would be better off worrying about themselves, other adults will make considered decisions themselves.

The best advice I've heard was from an epidemiologist: "Don't behave as if you're afraid of catching the virus. Behave as if you have it and are afraid of passing it on".

Health workers are tested regularly and of all of us, would be the most likely to observe that advice. And of course many more of them proportionally have contracted the virus and have antibodies and are now (at least for the short term) immune.

RGS

prawnsambo wrote: »

The best advice I've heard was from an epidemiologist: "Don't behave as if you're afraid of catching the virus. Behave as if you have it and are afraid of passing it on".

Health workers are tested regularly and of all of us, would be the most likely to observe that advice. And of course many more of them proportionally have contracted the virus and have antibodies and are now (at least for the short term) immune.

Health workers are not tested regularly. My wife is a nurse and was tested once since covid was discovered in Ireland and this only after 6 patients on her so called clean ward were covid positive. Thankfully she was negative. She has not been tested since.

prawnsambo

RGS wrote: »

Health workers are not tested regularly. My wife is a nurse and was tested once since covid was discovered in Ireland and this only after 6 patients on her so called clean ward were covid positive. Thankfully she was negative. She has not been tested since.

And yet I know a few who say they've been tested at least four times (last time I spoke to them). One is a neighbour who said they were tested last week for the fifth time. It may be related to exposure or contact tracing

billy3sheets

kitkatman wrote: »

i would be far more worried playing in the company of a health worker who has been dealing with the virus who may live inside the 5km limit than with a guy who lives 20km away and has been in lockdown for 2 months....you would have a better chance of contracting the virus from the former.


in fact if the goal is to prevent the spread perhaps a ban for the next 6 weeks of all involved with the health service from playing golf would be the way to advance, but of course common sense does not prevail.

the negative merchants commenting on the 5km limit would be better off worrying about themselves, other adults will make considered decisions themselves.

"make considered decisions" is another way of saying "I will interpret the law to suit myself".
It's a 5km limit not a 5km limit but it's OK if you think the risk is low.

First Up

billy3sheets wrote:

"make considered decisions" is another way of saying "I will interpret the law to suit myself". It's a 5km limit not a 5km limit but it's OK if you think the risk is low.

The 5k limit is not open to interpretation. If you get stopped beyond 5k you will need a good explanation - and the evidence to support it.

The only element open to "consideration" that I've seen is over 70s deciding to play but only within the travel limit.

Roger_007

billy3sheets wrote: »

"make considered decisions" is another way of saying "I will interpret the law to suit myself".
It's a 5km limit not a 5km limit but it's OK if you think the risk is low.

Whether you drive 1km or 10km the risk is exactly the same if you don’t stop to do something else on the way.
If is deemed to be safe to play golf, then the risk, whatever it is, is the same for everyone who turns up to play. It doesn’t matter how far they have driven to get there.
This issue has absolutely nothing to do with the risk involved. It is purely a question of the technical adherence to a law, (or not).