GUI Statement - Mod warning #1

Glebee

moycullen14 wrote: »

Are clubs charging a fee for timesheet bookings? I think ours is and reckon it's a bit cheeky.

That seems a bit much... How much are they looking for?

prawnsambo

Rackstar wrote: »

The distance is subject to change and the GUI/ILGU have no control over it.

Why include something that is set by law?

They don’t tell you not to speed on the way to the club.

All aspects of the government plan are subject to change. In fact change is built into the plan and the gap between phases is one of those changes that the government has stated is open to review. Strangely enough, the GUI have put the dates of the commencement of each phase in their document despite those being the most likely to be changed.

moycullen14

Glebee wrote: »

That seems a bit much... How much are they looking for?

€5 I think

thecomedian

moycullen14 wrote: »

Are clubs charging a fee for timesheet bookings? I think ours is and reckon it's a bit cheeky.

I think that’s wrong. Are they in serious trouble with money?

rickis tache

Actually it might be good. There could be lads booking slot with no intention of going but want to stop others (if Reading here says anything about some people) . If caught they'd say it was a last minute cancellation.

pinkdoubleeagle

They shouldn't be charging. It's casual golf and is covered in your subscription

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Because it's a straw man. You're just making up an arbitrary rule and expecting me to argue with it when it has no bearing whatsoever on the topic under discussion.

I'm not though.
I'm pointing out that nothing the GUI saw is law, it doesnt even need to be adhered to by golf clubs, nevermind them restriction what members of the public can do.
Hence there is zero need for them to repeat to you what the government has already told you. i.e. Dont travel more than 5KM.
You seem to take issue with the GUI not repeating the law, so I'm simply asking what difference it would make? The GUI cant alter the law, so why would/should they repeat it other than to link to it?

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm not though.
I'm pointing out that nothing the GUI saw is law, it doesnt even need to be adhered to by golf clubs, nevermind them restriction what members of the public can do.
Hence there is zero need for them to repeat to you what the government has already told you. i.e. Dont travel more than 5KM.
You seem to take issue with the GUI not repeating the law, so I'm simply asking what difference it would make? The GUI cant alter the law, so why would/should they repeat it other than to link to it?

You seem to have ignored the part of my post where the GUI did, in fact, repeat the law. More than once I should add, since the timing of the phases are also (or will be) enshrined in law.

GreeBo

Euphoriasean wrote: »

I genuinely think that if that less people would break the travel restrictions if the GUI called them out in a similar fashion to the 2 other bodies who published their protocols. They shouldn't have to but unfortunately it seems people need to be spoon fed this info again.

Agree with you on the over 70's, don't know how they includes this given it's not law.

Its just people looking for stupid loopholes that dont and cannot exist.
There would be uproar on here if the GUI had been more strict that the current 5km law and no one would be obeying it. Yet for some reason the GUI linking to the gov.ie website is also cause for uproar.

I get that people want to play, but until the 5KM restriction is increase, you cannot legally play if you live more than 5KM from your club.

You can jump through all the mental gymnastics you want but the bottom line is you are breaking the law and looking for an excuse and some sort of GUI dispensation to do it. Just accept what you are doing and quit the nonsense arguing about it. You are all just *asking* for the 5KM to be reduced back to 2KM and for golf to be bundled back in with everything else.:mad:

Rackstar

prawnsambo wrote: »

All aspects of the government plan are subject to change.

Exactly, so the GUI/ILGU should be dealing with the golf. The government, the exit plan.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

You seem to have ignored the part of my post where the GUI did, in fact, repeat the law. More than once I should add, since the timing of the phases are also (or will be) enshrined in law.

Ok, you all know the law.
If you want to nit pick around some non existent technicality to make yourselves feel better for breaking the law, go right ahead. But man up and admit what you are doing and dont try to hide behind a document from a golfing body.

There still hasnt been a single, coherent explanation as to what difference it would make if the GUI explicitly wrote "5KM" in their document, but you can all keep on shouting at those clouds if it makes you feel better.

Keano

Let's remember to civil, few posts are bordering on just shouting at each other. Stop it, thanks.

RGS

The 5Km limit is a radius so throws up some interesting anomalies:

For example: Donabate/The island/Corballis/Balcarrick are all within 5km of malahide, but its a 13/14km drive due to the estuary.

My understanding is that malahide residents are entitled to travel to these golf clubs as they are within the 5km radius. I may be open to correction but that's my understanding.

HighLine

moycullen14 wrote: »

Are clubs charging a fee for timesheet bookings? I think ours is and reckon it's a bit cheeky.

Are you sure it is not just a voluntary contribution? The members of my club are generally great and try and get behind and support their club.

There have been a few messages asking for us to put a donation box near the 1st tee for casual golf. Great to see the membership looking for ways to help out.

If it was a mandatory fee however, that is bad form IMO.

moycullen14

HighLine wrote: »

Are you sure it is not just a voluntary contribution? The members of my club are generally great and try and get behind and support their club.

There have been a few messages asking for us to put a donation box near the 1st tee for casual golf. Great to see the membership looking for ways to help out.

If it was a mandatory fee however, that is bad form IMO.

Thanks, that's what I think too. Don't want to be a miserable sod.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok, you all know the law.
If you want to nit pick around some non existent technicality to make yourselves feel better for breaking the law, go right ahead. But man up and admit what you are doing and dont try to hide behind a document from a golfing body.

There still hasnt been a single, coherent explanation as to what difference it would make if the GUI explicitly wrote "5KM" in their document, but you can all keep on shouting at those clouds if it makes you feel better.

I think I've said this before, but obviously it bears repeating. I have no intention (and no need) to break the law. I live well within 5Km of my golf club, but unfortunately will probably not be able to play due to injury.

Why I am bringing this issue up is that without leadership from the GUI, clubs are left to decide for themselves what to do. Which will mean inconsistency as some will mention the law, others will not and more will turn a blind eye. And perhaps (if I'm honest) I fear that when I can actually play, the whole mess will possibly (likely?) bring about a tightening of restrictions again. I get the impression from how the GUI are dealing with this is via the 'blind eye' route. Hoping that since it's only three weeks, nothing will go tits up and the next phase makes it pretty much all go away.

Kiith

I'd be pretty pissed if they start to charge me for casual golf. I kept my sub going though this downtime, so it'd be pretty rich of them to start charging for it now.

I don't think it'll happen here, at least from what i can see anyway.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Why I am bringing this issue up is that without leadership from the GUI, clubs are left to decide for themselves what to do.

But they simply arent. They Gardai look after enforcing the laws of Ireland. What do you think clubs are left to decide?

RGS wrote: »

The 5Km limit is a radius so throws up some interesting anomalies:

For example: Donabate/The island/Corballis/Balcarrick are all within 5km of malahide, but its a 13/14km drive due to the estuary.

My understanding is that malahide residents are entitled to travel to these golf clubs as they are within the 5km radius. I may be open to correction but that's my understanding.

If it any point on your journey you are more than 5KM from your house then you cant play.

Rackstar

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think I've said this before, but obviously it bears repeating. I have no intention (and no need) to break the law. I live well within 5Km of my golf club, but unfortunately will probably not be able to play due to injury.

Why I am bringing this issue up is that without leadership from the GUI, clubs are left to decide for themselves what to do. Which will mean inconsistency as some will mention the law, others will not and more will turn a blind eye. And perhaps (if I'm honest) I fear that when I can actually play, the whole mess will possibly (likely?) bring about a tightening of restrictions again. I get the impression from how the GUI are dealing with this is via the 'blind eye' route. Hoping that since it's only three weeks, nothing will go tits up and the next phase makes it pretty much all go away.

Ok so we have the areas of responsibility.

GUI / ILGU - Golf
Government & NPHET - Legislation / Plan easing restrictions
An Garda Siochana - upholding and promoting the rule of law
Clubs - Follow the guidelines/ no policing, leave that to law enforcement

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

But they simply arent. They Gardai look after enforcing the laws of Ireland. What do you think clubs are left to decide?

We're going around in circles here. Do I have to remind you (again) that the GUI have seen fit to refer to other things that are in the domain of the law/Gardai?

GreeBo wrote: »

If it any point on your journey you are more than 5KM from your house then you cant play.

Now you're making things up. I presume you'll be able to point to the actual law that states this? And for the record, I don't.

BraveDonut

My club guidelines simply added this:

"Members should not visit the Club if doing so puts them in contravention of government restrictions."

Covers it for me....

ShivasIrons

What do you think would happen if someone travels outside the 5k restriction and they are asymptomatic with the virus and spread it to a couple of other golfers?

Would the club be liable for not enforcing the travel restriction policy?

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

We're going around in circles here. Do I have to remind you (again) that the GUI have seen fit to refer to other things that are in the domain of the law/Gardai?

So now your argument is that they mentioned too much?

Now you're making things up. I presume you'll be able to point to the actual law that states this? And for the record, I don't.

Can you point to anything that would say you can travel further from 5KM from your house?

CalamariFritti

GreeBo wrote: »

So now your argument is that they mentioned too much?
Can you point to anything that would say you can travel further from 5KM from your house?

Neither you nor him know this for a fact. The phrase is "people can travel up to 5 kilometres from their home to exercise".

The way its phrased it may be your interpretation it may be his or it may be something else.

Just going by the actual wording I would read it like this.

You can travel any distance provided your destination is not further than 5km from your house.

But it could also mean that my journey (on the odometer) must not exceed 5km. Its not 100% unambiguous.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

So now your argument is that they mentioned too much?

You're tying yourself in knots here.

My point (consistently made) is that they have been inconsistent.

GreeBo wrote: »

Can you point to anything that would say you can travel further from 5KM from your house?

So now I have to prove a negative? Assuming that golf comes under the exercise exception (and there's yet another reason for clarity), here's the actual law (SI No. 121 of 2020 - as empowered by Section 31A of the Health Act 1947):

4. (1) An applicable person shall not leave his or her place of residence without reasonable excuse.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of what constitutes a reasonable excuse for the purposes of paragraph (1), such reasonable excuse includes an applicable person leaving his or her place of residence (in this paragraph referred to as the “relevant residence”) to -

(i) exercise, either alone or with other persons residing in the relevant residence, within a 2 kilometre radius of that residence,

Nothing in there (or anywhere else in the legislation) about the route you take to get to that place of exercise.

But it's interesting that for somebody who keeps saying that the law is clear and easily found, can't actually find the relevant legislation and is making bits of it up in the absence of being able to find it. And there are 14 other exceptions to the prohibition on leaving your place of residence. And 13 other subsectioned exceptions. Not counting all the places and services that are excluded from the distance limit.

londonred

RGS wrote: »

The 5Km limit is a radius so throws up some interesting anomalies:

For example: Donabate/The island/Corballis/Balcarrick are all within 5km of malahide, but its a 13/14km drive due to the estuary.

My understanding is that malahide residents are entitled to travel to these golf clubs as they are within the 5km radius. I may be open to correction but that's my understanding.

Yes its fine as long as you don't leave your 5k circle to get there

https://2kmfromhome.com/5km/

GreeBo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Neither you nor him know this for a fact. The phrase is "people can travel up to 5 kilometres from their home to exercise".

The way its phrased it may be your interpretation it may be his or it may be something else.

Just going by the actual wording I would read it like this.

You can travel any distance provided your destination is not further than 5km from your house.

But it could also mean that my journey (on the odometer) must not exceed 5km. Its not 100% unambiguous.

It means you can never be more than 5km distance from your house, I dont know why people are trying to overcomplicate it, or again, find some crazy loopholes.
Perhaps if you travel via the sewer system or via horseback you can go further?:rolleyes:

from gov.ie

In the meantime, as of today, it is possible to travel within 5 kilometres of your home for the purposes of exercise, accompanied only by members of your own household and observing social distancing at all times.

Seems pretty clear cut to me, sure otherwise I could go anywhere I wanted in Ireland as long as I ended up 5KM from my house...how do you reckon that would go down with the Guards?

There is nothing I have seen that would exclude golf from that restriction, but I'm sure some will find it ambiguous, of course in their favour.:cool:

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

You're tying yourself in knots here.

My point (consistently made) is that they have been inconsistent.

So now I have to prove a negative? Assuming that golf comes under the exercise exception (and there's yet another reason for clarity), here's the actual law (SI No. 121 of 2020 - as empowered by Section 31A of the Health Act 1947):



Nothing in there (or anywhere else in the legislation) about the route you take to get to that place of exercise.

But it's interesting that for somebody who keeps saying that the law is clear and easily found, can't actually find the relevant legislation and is making bits of it up in the absence of being able to find it. And there are 14 other exceptions to the prohibition on leaving your place of residence. And 13 other subsectioned exceptions. Not counting all the places and services that are excluded from the distance limit.

Do you honestly, honestly now, believe that the 5km restriction is purely about where you end up, and not how far you travel to get there?

Think about it logically for a minute, why would we have checkpoints if you can travel as far as you want as long as you end up no more than 5km from home?
Sure then I can jog 10KM away from my house and 10KM back and I havent broken any of your interpretion of the law becuase I didnt stop anywhere.:rolleyes:


This is crazy talk lads, pure nonsense.

pinkdoubleeagle

has become another farce of a thread

GreeBo

pinkdoubleeagle wrote: »

has become another farce of a thread

It's hard not to see it as trolling at this stage.

Its like watching people try to avoid the draft.

Carazy

I think a FAQ supplement to the protocol from the GUI would answer a lot of questions and we wouldn't have two huge threads on the subject as well as Facebook and Twitter threads being inundated with similar queries.

pinkdoubleeagle

Our timesheets are going live tonight covering Monday 18th to Sunday 24th

Will be interesting to see how quickly they fill up and how many living outside the 5k restrictions and over 70's will put their names down

eoghan104

Greebo having led in the early going with a few 10-8 rounds is now struggling as prawn comes back off the ropes with a couple of rounds of his own.

No KO yet for either fighter but wide open heading into the championship rounds. Fascinating finish ahead.

I miss live sport.

GreeBo

Carazy wrote: »

I think a FAQ supplement to the protocol from the GUI would answer a lot of questions and we wouldn't have two huge threads on the subject as well as Facebook and Twitter threads being inundated with similar queries.

I can give you one right now, based on their twitter replies and common sense.

FAQ:

Q) Can I play golf?
A) Do the government restrictions currently allow you to play golf?


Their twitter and facebook feeds are full of
"Government policy in relation to travel applies at all times."

Break80

I was in 2 minds about breaking what i always considered a wrong law by travelling 15kms to my club.
Google Traveller Funeral Cork Today lads.
That should make up your mind.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you honestly, honestly now, believe that the 5km restriction is purely about where you end up, and not how far you travel to get there?

Think about it logically for a minute, why would we have checkpoints if you can travel as far as you want as long as you end up no more than 5km from home?
Sure then I can jog 10KM away from my house and 10KM back and I havent broken any of your interpretion of the law becuase I didnt stop anywhere.:rolleyes:

This is crazy talk lads, pure nonsense.

Crazy talk . Reductio ad absurdum mean anything to you?


If you're jogging 10Km from your home, then you're clearly exercising outside the radius prescribed by law. Is this what passes for serious argument in your mind? Good luck with that.

Mac_Lad71

My members owned club charging 5 euro for casual golf to offset against lost income.

fred funk }{

Mac_Lad71 wrote: »

My members owned club charging 5 euro for casual golf to offset against lost income.

I actually don't think it's a bad idea. Maybe not every day but maybe only the weeknd which would be more palatable to members.

Keano

Greebo and prawnsambo you both are as guilty as each other. Stop now with the petty stuff or it’s a week off.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Crazy talk . Reductio ad absurdum mean anything to you?


If you're jogging 10Km from your home, then you're clearly exercising outside the radius prescribed by law. Is this what passes for serious argument in your mind? Good luck with that.

Do you honestly think the restrictions are about how far away you end up or how far you away you have to travel to get there.

Why do we have checkpoints if the distance travelled is irrelevant?

First Up

A 5k radius means that is how far you can be from home. The ultimate destination is irrelevant.

That said, I'd hope some discretion and common sense will apply in situations like going from Malahide to The Island GC and similar.

But the 5k limit rules most of us out of going to our clubs. June 8 and 20k is when it starts for me

mike12

First Up wrote: »

A 5k radius means that is how far you can be from home. The ultimate destination is irrelevant.

That said, I'd hope some discretion and common sense will apply in situations like going from Malahide to The Island GC and similar.

But the 5k limit rules most of us out of going to our clubs. June 8 and 20k is when it starts for me

Reckon someone will have the boat service running from malahide across the estuary as it used to in the old days.

ChippingSodbury

Sorry, this post doesn't mention travel restrictions! Just a nice photo...

CalamariFritti

eoghan104 wrote: »

Greebo having led in the early going with a few 10-8 rounds is now struggling as prawn comes back off the ropes with a couple of rounds of his own.

No KO yet for either fighter but wide open heading into the championship rounds. Fascinating finish ahead.

I miss live sport.

Well starting Saturday the Bundesliga will be back. And with everything thats going on all matches will be on free tv for the remainder of the season.

I know its not what the majority are waiting for but its something. Better than the Belarus league anyway.

And Saturday starts with the classic that is Dortmund Schalke. Will be weird with no spectators but it will be proper footie. Frankfurt Gladbach will be interesting too. Gladach well in the mix for CL spots and even with an outside chance for the title still.

ChippingSodbury

And one more.

GreeBo

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

Sorry, this post doesn't mention travel restrictions! Just a nice photo...

Those people look closer than 2m to me....

fred funk }{

GreeBo wrote: »

Those people look closer than 2m to me....

Perspective, near and far

Rackstar

GreeBo wrote: »

Those people look closer than 2m to me....

They’ve probably only read the guidelines from the GUI/ILGU and are completely oblivious to the pandemic, bless them

ChippingSodbury

GreeBo wrote: »

Those people look closer than 2m to me....

They live together!

Down9194

Mac_Lad71 wrote: »

My members owned club charging 5 euro for casual golf to offset against lost income.

Makes sense. I suggested on that on the Coronavirus Club thread last week. Golf Clubs could do with the income in lieu of comp fees