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GUI Statement - Mod warning #1

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    #242
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Why would said body reiterate the social distancing requirements imposed by the government, the hygiene requirements and suggest protocols for implementing them and not mention the thing that not only could further the spread of the virus, but also get their members into trouble with the law? It's inconsistent and (as said above) quite possibly deliberately ambiguous.

    And as I've said before, sports bodies generally and golf in particular regularly update members on other areas of law where they intersect with their sports.

    They linked to the government regulations, I quoted it directly in my previous post?
    The gave guidance about how to social distance, wash hands etc in the context of playing golf.
    There is no concept of "travelling 5km" in the context of golf. 5KM is 5KM, why would they need to explain that to you?

    Its interesting (to me) that no one is up in arms that Tennis Ireland has told the over 70s that they cannot play, despite there being no such law in Ireland.

    Which leads back to my previous question, if the GUI said that only players with 2KM could play, what would your response be?


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    #243
    Carazy
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭Carazy


    GreeBo wrote: »
    And I'll repeat my questions once again.
    What is ambiguous?
    If the GUI recommended no more than 2km travel would you obey it?
    If the GUI recommended more than 5km travel would you follow it?

    There were basically 5 options for the GUI:
    - Word for word quote the 5km restrictions
    - Dont mention them
    - Recommend a smaller restriction
    - Recommend a bigger restriction
    - Reference links to the current laws


    The GUI took the 5th option
    "Golfers are expected to observe
    the underlying public health guidance set out at: www.hse.ie/coronavirus/ and www.gov.ie"

    But in any case, *irrespective* of what option they took, the laws of Ireland take precedence and I've yet to see a single, coherent argument on here as to what would be any different if the GUI took a different option.


    What is ambiguous?

    Because it doesn't state the km requirements in their phase diagram. If you look through this thread and the previous thread the foremost question was does this apply to golf. I know it does, you know it does but that doesn't mean it should have been omitted in the protocol and I feel it was intentionally left out. Look at Twitter, Facebook, Boards etc. This question is the top of the list.

    Again, do you think it was accidentally left out?

    If the GUI recommended no more than 2km travel would you obey it?

    If a governing body of a sport had any clout I guess I would.
    If the GUI are seriously seen as the body to represent golf on this island then it needs it's members to follow their guidelines and it,the GUI, needs to clearly outline those guidelines which as you know I don't feel they did in this instance.

    If the GUI recommended more than 5km travel would you follow it?
    Same as above.


    Again, do you think it was accidentally left out?
    Yes/No


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    #244
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Carazy wrote: »
    Because it doesn't state the km requirements in their phase diagram. If you look through this thread and the previous thread the foremost question was does this apply to golf. I know it does, you know it does but that doesn't mean it should have been omitted in the protocol and I feel it was intentionally left out. Look at Twitter, Facebook, Boards etc. This question is the top of the list.
    But they GUI cant overrule and laws of Ireland, so of course the 5KM restrictions applies to Golf.
    Carazy wrote: »

    If the GUI recommended no more than 2km travel would you obey it?

    If a governing body of a sport had any clout I guess I would.
    If the GUI are seriously seen as the body to represent golf on this island then it needs it's members to follow their guidelines and it,the GUI, needs to clearly outline those guidelines which as you know I don't feel they did in this instance.
    They wouldnt be clarifying, the would be repeating verbatim, as they have no mandate to do anything else.
    Carazy wrote: »
    Again, do you think it was accidentally left out?
    Yes/No
    For me it wasnt left out, they clearly told people to obey the restrictions set out by the government and HSE within Ireland.


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    #245
    Rackstar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭Rackstar


    Carazy wrote: »
    What is ambiguous?

    Because it doesn't state the km requirements in their phase diagram. If you look through this thread and the previous thread the foremost question was does this apply to golf. I know it does, you know it does but that doesn't mean it should have been omitted in the protocol and I feel it was intentionally left out. Look at Twitter, Facebook, Boards etc. This question is the top of the list.

    Again, do you think it was accidentally left out?

    If the GUI recommended no more than 2km travel would you obey it?

    If a governing body of a sport had any clout I guess I would.
    If the GUI are seriously seen as the body to represent golf on this island then it needs it's members to follow their guidelines and it,the GUI, needs to clearly outline those guidelines which as you know I don't feel they did in this instance.

    If the GUI recommended more than 5km travel would you follow it?
    Same as above.


    Again, do you think it was accidentally left out?
    Yes/No

    The distance is subject to change and the GUI/ILGU have no control over it.

    Why include something that is set by law?

    They don’t tell you not to speed on the way to the club.


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    #246
    moycullen14
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    Are clubs charging a fee for timesheet bookings? I think ours is and reckon it's a bit cheeky.


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    #247
    blackbox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,293 ✭✭✭blackbox


    I actually think the GUI was dead right NOT to say anything about travel restrictions.

    This means that if the Government makes a change to the restrictions, tht GUI does not have to issue a revised document.

    The GUI has no control over what the Government decides to do.


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    #248
    Euphoriasean
    Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭Euphoriasean


    GreeBo wrote: »
    They linked to the government regulations, I quoted it directly in my previous post?
    The gave guidance about how to social distance, wash hands etc in the context of playing golf.
    There is no concept of "travelling 5km" in the context of golf. 5KM is 5KM, why would they need to explain that to you?

    Its interesting (to me) that no one is up in arms that Tennis Ireland has told the over 70s that they cannot play, despite there being no such law in Ireland.

    Which leads back to my previous question, if the GUI said that only players with 2KM could play, what would your response be?

    I genuinely think that if that less people would break the travel restrictions if the GUI called them out in a similar fashion to the 2 other bodies who published their protocols. They shouldn't have to but unfortunately it seems people need to be spoon fed this info again.

    Agree with you on the over 70's, don't know how they includes this given it's not law.


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    #249
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    They linked to the government regulations, I quoted it directly in my previous post?
    The gave guidance about how to social distance, wash hands etc in the context of playing golf.
    There is no concept of "travelling 5km" in the context of golf. 5KM is 5KM, why would they need to explain that to you?
    They seem to think that it's worth telling members and clubs that bars and restaurants are to remain closed. There is no concept of bars and restaurants being closed in the context of golf. Bars and restaurants are bars and restaurants. Why would they need to explain that to us?
    GreeBo wrote: »
    Its interesting (to me) that no one is up in arms that Tennis Ireland has told the over 70s that they cannot play, despite there being no such law in Ireland.
    I would suspect that it's guidance in relation to tennis only. For reasons solely to do with the environment in which tennis is played. Tennis Ireland have opted to take a leadership role here and applied government advice to over 70s to their sport. Why would people on the golf forum be up in arms about this?
    GreeBo wrote: »
    Which leads back to my previous question, if the GUI said that only players with 2KM could play, what would your response be?
    Because it's a straw man. You're just making up an arbitrary rule and expecting me to argue with it when it has no bearing whatsoever on the topic under discussion.


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    #250
    BigChap1759
    Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭BigChap1759


    blackbox wrote: »
    I actually think the GUI was dead right NOT to say anything about travel restrictions.

    This means that if the Government makes a change to the restrictions, tht GUI does not have to issue a revised document.

    The GUI has no control over what the Government decides to do.


    This actually makes a lot of sense given that the distancing and other guidelines/laws are subject to change


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    #251
    Carazy
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭Carazy


    BigChap1759 wrote: »
    This actually makes a lot of sense given that the distancing and other guidelines/laws are subject to change

    It's such a short protocol document it wouldn't have taken long to reissue I'd imagine since their template is already complete.


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    #252
    Glebee
    Registered Users Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭Glebee


    moycullen14 wrote: »
    Are clubs charging a fee for timesheet bookings? I think ours is and reckon it's a bit cheeky.

    That seems a bit much... How much are they looking for?


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    #253
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Rackstar wrote: »
    The distance is subject to change and the GUI/ILGU have no control over it.

    Why include something that is set by law?

    They don’t tell you not to speed on the way to the club.
    All aspects of the government plan are subject to change. In fact change is built into the plan and the gap between phases is one of those changes that the government has stated is open to review. Strangely enough, the GUI have put the dates of the commencement of each phase in their document despite those being the most likely to be changed.


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    #254
    moycullen14
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    Glebee wrote: »
    That seems a bit much... How much are they looking for?

    €5 I think


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    #255
    thecomedian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭thecomedian


    moycullen14 wrote: »
    Are clubs charging a fee for timesheet bookings? I think ours is and reckon it's a bit cheeky.

    I think that’s wrong. Are they in serious trouble with money?


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    #256
    rickis tache
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭rickis tache


    Actually it might be good. There could be lads booking slot with no intention of going but want to stop others (if Reading here says anything about some people) . If caught they'd say it was a last minute cancellation.


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    #257
    pinkdoubleeagle
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭pinkdoubleeagle


    They shouldn't be charging. It's casual golf and is covered in your subscription


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    #258
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Because it's a straw man. You're just making up an arbitrary rule and expecting me to argue with it when it has no bearing whatsoever on the topic under discussion.
    I'm not though.
    I'm pointing out that nothing the GUI saw is law, it doesnt even need to be adhered to by golf clubs, nevermind them restriction what members of the public can do.
    Hence there is zero need for them to repeat to you what the government has already told you. i.e. Dont travel more than 5KM.
    You seem to take issue with the GUI not repeating the law, so I'm simply asking what difference it would make? The GUI cant alter the law, so why would/should they repeat it other than to link to it?


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    #259
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I'm not though.
    I'm pointing out that nothing the GUI saw is law, it doesnt even need to be adhered to by golf clubs, nevermind them restriction what members of the public can do.
    Hence there is zero need for them to repeat to you what the government has already told you. i.e. Dont travel more than 5KM.
    You seem to take issue with the GUI not repeating the law, so I'm simply asking what difference it would make? The GUI cant alter the law, so why would/should they repeat it other than to link to it?
    You seem to have ignored the part of my post where the GUI did, in fact, repeat the law. More than once I should add, since the timing of the phases are also (or will be) enshrined in law.


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    #260
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Euphoriasean wrote: »
    I genuinely think that if that less people would break the travel restrictions if the GUI called them out in a similar fashion to the 2 other bodies who published their protocols. They shouldn't have to but unfortunately it seems people need to be spoon fed this info again.

    Agree with you on the over 70's, don't know how they includes this given it's not law.

    Its just people looking for stupid loopholes that dont and cannot exist.
    There would be uproar on here if the GUI had been more strict that the current 5km law and no one would be obeying it. Yet for some reason the GUI linking to the gov.ie website is also cause for uproar.

    I get that people want to play, but until the 5KM restriction is increase, you cannot legally play if you live more than 5KM from your club.

    You can jump through all the mental gymnastics you want but the bottom line is you are breaking the law and looking for an excuse and some sort of GUI dispensation to do it. Just accept what you are doing and quit the nonsense arguing about it. You are all just *asking* for the 5KM to be reduced back to 2KM and for golf to be bundled back in with everything else.:mad:


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    #261
    Rackstar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭Rackstar


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    All aspects of the government plan are subject to change.

    Exactly, so the GUI/ILGU should be dealing with the golf. The government, the exit plan.


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    #262
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    You seem to have ignored the part of my post where the GUI did, in fact, repeat the law. More than once I should add, since the timing of the phases are also (or will be) enshrined in law.

    Ok, you all know the law.
    If you want to nit pick around some non existent technicality to make yourselves feel better for breaking the law, go right ahead. But man up and admit what you are doing and dont try to hide behind a document from a golfing body.

    There still hasnt been a single, coherent explanation as to what difference it would make if the GUI explicitly wrote "5KM" in their document, but you can all keep on shouting at those clouds if it makes you feel better.


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    #263
    Keano
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Let's remember to civil, few posts are bordering on just shouting at each other. Stop it, thanks.


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    #264
    RGS
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭RGS


    The 5Km limit is a radius so throws up some interesting anomalies:

    For example: Donabate/The island/Corballis/Balcarrick are all within 5km of malahide, but its a 13/14km drive due to the estuary.

    My understanding is that malahide residents are entitled to travel to these golf clubs as they are within the 5km radius. I may be open to correction but that's my understanding.


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    #265
    HighLine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭HighLine


    moycullen14 wrote: »
    Are clubs charging a fee for timesheet bookings? I think ours is and reckon it's a bit cheeky.

    Are you sure it is not just a voluntary contribution? The members of my club are generally great and try and get behind and support their club.

    There have been a few messages asking for us to put a donation box near the 1st tee for casual golf. Great to see the membership looking for ways to help out.

    If it was a mandatory fee however, that is bad form IMO.


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    #266
    moycullen14
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    HighLine wrote: »
    Are you sure it is not just a voluntary contribution? The members of my club are generally great and try and get behind and support their club.

    There have been a few messages asking for us to put a donation box near the 1st tee for casual golf. Great to see the membership looking for ways to help out.

    If it was a mandatory fee however, that is bad form IMO.

    Thanks, that's what I think too. Don't want to be a miserable sod.


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    #267
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Ok, you all know the law.
    If you want to nit pick around some non existent technicality to make yourselves feel better for breaking the law, go right ahead. But man up and admit what you are doing and dont try to hide behind a document from a golfing body.

    There still hasnt been a single, coherent explanation as to what difference it would make if the GUI explicitly wrote "5KM" in their document, but you can all keep on shouting at those clouds if it makes you feel better.
    I think I've said this before, but obviously it bears repeating. I have no intention (and no need) to break the law. I live well within 5Km of my golf club, but unfortunately will probably not be able to play due to injury.

    Why I am bringing this issue up is that without leadership from the GUI, clubs are left to decide for themselves what to do. Which will mean inconsistency as some will mention the law, others will not and more will turn a blind eye. And perhaps (if I'm honest) I fear that when I can actually play, the whole mess will possibly (likely?) bring about a tightening of restrictions again. I get the impression from how the GUI are dealing with this is via the 'blind eye' route. Hoping that since it's only three weeks, nothing will go tits up and the next phase makes it pretty much all go away.


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    #268
    Kiith
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 23,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kiith


    I'd be pretty pissed if they start to charge me for casual golf. I kept my sub going though this downtime, so it'd be pretty rich of them to start charging for it now.

    I don't think it'll happen here, at least from what i can see anyway.


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    #269
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Why I am bringing this issue up is that without leadership from the GUI, clubs are left to decide for themselves what to do.
    But they simply arent. They Gardai look after enforcing the laws of Ireland. What do you think clubs are left to decide?
    RGS wrote: »
    The 5Km limit is a radius so throws up some interesting anomalies:

    For example: Donabate/The island/Corballis/Balcarrick are all within 5km of malahide, but its a 13/14km drive due to the estuary.

    My understanding is that malahide residents are entitled to travel to these golf clubs as they are within the 5km radius. I may be open to correction but that's my understanding.
    If it any point on your journey you are more than 5KM from your house then you cant play.


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    #270
    Rackstar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭Rackstar


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I think I've said this before, but obviously it bears repeating. I have no intention (and no need) to break the law. I live well within 5Km of my golf club, but unfortunately will probably not be able to play due to injury.

    Why I am bringing this issue up is that without leadership from the GUI, clubs are left to decide for themselves what to do. Which will mean inconsistency as some will mention the law, others will not and more will turn a blind eye. And perhaps (if I'm honest) I fear that when I can actually play, the whole mess will possibly (likely?) bring about a tightening of restrictions again. I get the impression from how the GUI are dealing with this is via the 'blind eye' route. Hoping that since it's only three weeks, nothing will go tits up and the next phase makes it pretty much all go away.

    Ok so we have the areas of responsibility.

    GUI / ILGU - Golf
    Government & NPHET - Legislation / Plan easing restrictions
    An Garda Siochana - upholding and promoting the rule of law
    Clubs - Follow the guidelines/ no policing, leave that to law enforcement


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    #271
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    But they simply arent. They Gardai look after enforcing the laws of Ireland. What do you think clubs are left to decide?
    We're going around in circles here. Do I have to remind you (again) that the GUI have seen fit to refer to other things that are in the domain of the law/Gardai?
    GreeBo wrote: »
    If it any point on your journey you are more than 5KM from your house then you cant play.
    Now you're making things up. I presume you'll be able to point to the actual law that states this? And for the record, I don't.


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