Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

wakka12

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is also nonsense

Convincing counter arguments as ever

FintanMcluskey

wakka12 wrote: »

It's not. Read the study

Don't let facts get in front of your indifference towards the deaths of expendable elderly

No it was suggested in the post that if you make it to 70 you will make it to 90 only for an execption like Covid.

bb1234567

bb1234567 wrote: »

Few people are in fear, mostly just common decency and regard for the life of elderly people. 'Some people', yeah, just a few hundred thousand in Europe in 8 weeks, very considerate.

Life expectancy at age 80 for a westerner is much higher than most people think. For an American woman it is 9 years, for men it is 7 more years.
Irish victims in their late seventies and early 80's would have a lot of years left to live if not for covid.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7565998

It is different to the average age of death in Ireland which is 80 , a figure which is dragged down massively by people who die young of suicide, car crashes, child mortality, sudden adult deaths, accidents,murder, very unhealthy lifestyles, middle aged people getting cancer, whatever.

If you make it to your 70s or early 80s, you are more than likely going to make it to around 90 years old before you die, barring an exception such as this pandemic.

Most elderly people that died of Covid, were already dying of something else. Late stages of cancer, heart disease, advanced COPD.

Sadly, old people die.

But even the elderly are sick of lockdown. Why waste your remaining years in lockdown? Most elderly people spend a large part of life trying to find a better future for their children and grand children. Horrible to die knowing the place is burning to the ground.

growleaves

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I am not in anyway arguging against that idea but using language evoking imagery of slavery and oppression I feel isn't helpful and is massively hyperbolic and actually tends to undermine the sentiment because it sounds so ridiculous.

"Let my people go" - Exodus 7:16

Birdie Num Num

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Been on house arrest for 9 weeks is harder when you realise we are hiding in fear from a mild illness that kills some people over 80 with very serious underlying issues.

Over 1 million out of work when less than 100 under 65 have died. How do we justify that?

Screwing over the majority of the population for the minority. That’s not how a democracy should work.

Ah cone on. You’re not Nelson Mandela or living in Bergamo. You were advised to stay at home and had the liberty to travel to the shops. Walk, run, cycle, crawl or wheel yourself within 2k, now 5k, of your home.

You keep ramming this mild illness lark too. It is mild for many and deadly for many too but thankfully not as many. In my life time I have know of one person that died of influenza. In 3 months I know of several who have died of Covid 19 and two seriously ill. A range of ages from 40s to 80s.

FintanMcluskey

wakka12 wrote: »

Convincing counter arguments as ever

So every single citizen in the workforce has serious health issues??
I imagine that would be typical of a workforce involved in the clean up of Chernobyl.

wakka12

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most elderly people that died of Covid, were already dying of something else. Late stages of cancer, heart disease, advanced COPD.

Sadly, old people die.

But even the elderly are sick of lockdown. Why waste your remaining years in lockdown? Most elderly people spend a large part of life trying to find a better future for their children and grand children. Horrible to die knowing the place is burning to the ground.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-warning-as-major-study-finds-most-elderly-victims-would-not-have-died-otherwise-11980675
Wrong on that one mate.
Sorry that it doesn't fit the narrative of this thread that over one hundred thousand people in Europe with many years left of life have died in the space of two months

wakka12

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most elderly people that died of Covid, were already dying of something else. Late stages of cancer, heart disease, advanced COPD.

Sadly, old people die.

But even the elderly are sick of lockdown. Why waste your remaining years in lockdown? Most elderly people spend a large part of life trying to find a better future for their children and grand children. Horrible to die knowing the place is burning to the ground.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-warning-as-major-study-finds-most-elderly-victims-would-not-have-died-otherwise-11980675
Wrong on that one mate.
Sorry that it doesn't fit the narrative of this thread that over one hundred thousand people in Europe with many years left of life have died in the space of two months

bill murray

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is also nonsense

Is it really, which part,

Would you care to correct my post and where I am gone wrong doctor.... 🙄

FintanMcluskey

wakka12 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-warning-as-major-study-finds-most-elderly-victims-would-not-have-died-otherwise-11980675
Wrong on that one mate.
Sorry that it doesn't fit the narrative of this thread that over one hundred thousand people in Europe with many years left of life have died in the space of two months

Ok so reading that, what the "leading scientist" thinks is that those people "wouldnt of died".
I wonder is the leading scientist Neil Ferguson

FintanMcluskey

bill murray wrote: »

Is it really, which part,

Would you care to correct my post and where I am gone wrong doctor.... ��

That every single person in the workforce has a serious underlying condition.

wakka12

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No it was suggested in the post that if you make it to 70 you will make it to 90 only for an execption like Covid.

Do you have a study to counter the one posted ? The study in question clearly showed that most people who are 80 will make it to their late eighties or even 90. Your disagreeing with this published study based on what? Your personal belief?

SusieBlue

bill murray wrote: »

The vast majority of the workforce in this country have some form of underline condition, asthma, people with high blood pressure, kidney problems, cystic fibrous, recovered from cancer , diabetes, chrones disease lthe list goes on

If you took everyone out of the workforce that had the slightest underline condition there would be no work fource

So you think the alternative of keeping one million people out of work is preferable, just because some people with underlying conditions might be unable to to return to their employment?
And where did you pull that list from?
The ‘vast majority’ of the workforce do not suffer from cystic fibrosis, cancer and kidney problems among the other ailments on your list, and regardless that still does not justify not allowing everyone else return to their jobs.

Anyone who wants to cocoon can cocoon, it won’t be compulsory and regardless of age/health many won’t be bothered with it at all. I have asthma myself and no way would I let that stop me from living my life and being a contributing member of society.
I know plenty of elderly people and others with underlying conditions who fear the isolation and loneliness more than they fear the virus itself and are looking forward to restrictions being eased.

WhiteMemento9

MrDavid1976 wrote: »

The longer we keep this safety net beyond what is necessary, the less we have to provide and type safety net to those most in need when we emerge from this. The consequences are serious cuts to most in need which will be a higher proportion of society. The Govt. are all over the place on this and we will all suffer as a result.

We have not even got close to a time when they can be deemed unnecessary. Removal of those saftey nets before significant portions of society have the ability and opportunity to return to work is not going to happen. I am always more concerned with measures that protect the overall majority of people than fringes cases that exploit the situation or a minioity or people who will be disincentivised to return to work at this time.

Austerity and future cuts aren't even a conversation worth considering at this point as we have no real indication of the long term impact Globally or locally within the economic landscape in the longterm. We are borrowing at extremely low interest rate and the impact won't be massively noticeable in the longterm if things recover in a meaningful way. If things turn out badly then taking about removing the saftey net to save money now that helps in the future is like saying you can plug holes in a dam with a few plasters.

Ginger n Lemon

wakka12 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-warning-as-major-study-finds-most-elderly-victims-would-not-have-died-otherwise-11980675
Wrong on that one mate.
Sorry that it doesn't fit the narrative of this thread that over one hundred thousand people in Europe with many years left of life have died in the space of two months

Your professor says covid is as dangerous as ebola. Ebola mortality rate is 50%.

Credability is all lost instantly. Fintan was right, nonsense

bill murray

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

That every single person in the workforce has a serious underlying condition.

Do I have to repeat the conditions again? A vast portion of the work force come under the bracket of underlying condition or have some form of underlying condition

So if you leave everyone at home that fall into the bracket it seriously hampers any workforce

Ginger n Lemon

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

We have not even got close to a time when they can be deemed unnecessary. Removal of those saftey nets before significant portions of society have the ability and opportunity to return to work is not going to happen. I am always more concerned with measures that protect the overall majority of people than fringes cases that exploit the situation or a minioity or people who will be disincentivised to return to work at this time.

Austerity and future cuts aren't even a conversation worth considering at this point as we have no real indication of the long term impact Globally or locally within the economic landscape in the longterm. We are borrowing at extremely low interest rate and the impact won't be massively noticeable in the longterm if things recover in a meaningful way. If things turn out badly then taking about removing the saftey net to save money now that helps in the future is like saying you can plug holes in a dam with a few plasters.

But the overall majority of population will have no symptoms to mild symptoms from covid. Why are you still concerned?

PS you cant borrow your way out of trouble. Thats rule number 1 of finance

MadYaker

growleaves wrote: »

'Many years of lockdown'? What dream world are you living in? European societies could collapse unless they come out of lockdown.

I never they said there should years of lockdown. I said you’d have to sustain lockdown for years to kill as many as Covid has already.

bill murray

SusieBlue wrote: »

So you think the alternative of keeping one million people out of work is preferable, just because some people with underlying conditions might be unable to to return to their employment?
And where did you pull that list from?
The ‘vast majority’ of the workforce do not suffer from cystic fibrosis, cancer and kidney problems among the other ailments on your list, and regardless that still does not justify not allowing everyone else return to their jobs.

Anyone who wants to cocoon can cocoon, it won’t be compulsory and regardless of age/health many won’t be bothered with it at all. I have asthma myself and no way would I let that stop me from living my life and being a contributing member of society.
I know plenty of elderly people and others with underlying conditions who fear the isolation and loneliness more than they fear the virus itself and are looking forward to restrictions being eased.

You should become a fiction writer.... This stuff is pure gold!!

MadYaker

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Its a very small shift in the economic fortunes of a country that will cost more life than Covid. This is primarily killing end of life and terminally ill.

How do you calculate this? We know roughly how many have died from Covid. How many has the lockdown killed?

bill murray

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

But the overall majority of population will have no symptoms to mild symptoms from covid. Why are you still concerned?

PS you cant borrow your way out of trouble. Thats rule number 1 of finance

And you think that we would avoid rescission if we came out of full lock down while the likes of the USA and the UK were still in lockdown

MrDavid1976

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

We have not even got close to a time when they can be deemed unnecessary. Removal of those saftey nets before significant portions of society have the ability and opportunity to return to work is not going to happen. I am always more concerned with measures that protect the overall majority of people than fringes cases that exploit the situation or a minioity or people who will be disincentivised to return to work at this time.

Austerity and future cuts aren't even a conversation worth considering at this point as we have no real indication of the long term impact Globally or locally within the economic landscape in the longterm. We are borrowing at extremely low interest rate and the impact won't be massively noticeable in the longterm if things recover in a meaningful way. If things turn out badly then taking about removing the saftey net to save money now that helps in the future is like saying you can plug holes in a dam with a few plasters.

You miss the point. I agree with the current safety net but you cannot close things down beyond where they should be. This cash is for workers and is plugging the hole but only partly. Resources will be spent which will ultimately be dead money. I know of two businesses which are gone as of today - one of which May have survived if the plan had been implemented as planned - the Covid payments only partially helped.

Bottom line is that we have gone beyond what we can afford if we are keeping business shut down beyond what is necessary.

Ginger n Lemon

bill murray wrote: »

And you think that we would avoid rescission if we came out of full lock down while the likes of the USA and the UK were still in lockdown

More than half of US states are opened already. Arizona got rid of their "covid response" medical team altogether.

BoJo told UK to get back to work, public transport packed since Monday.

What lockdown?

SusieBlue

bill murray wrote: »

You should become a fiction writer.... This stuff is pure gold!!

Citation please for your claim that the majority of the Irish workforce suffer from conditions such as cystic fibrosis, cancer, kidney failure etc. cause I’ve searched online and have found absolutely nothing to back that up.
You’re the only bluffer here my friend.

I will repeat it again as you didn’t seem to comprehend it the previous two times I said it, cocooning will never be compulsory. Let those who want to do it, do it, and let everyone else go back to work with an accelerated gradual reopening of the various industries.
It’s really not that difficult a concept.

Colibri

It's been said here already but no with link

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/CUH-disbands-COVID-ward-but-consultant-cautions-we-need-to-hold-firm-a853caf0-f59c-4729-baed-fe8aca82a442-ds


CUH COVID ward disbanded due to too few patients.

Last night just three people with confirmed Covid-19 were being treated at the hospital.

Dr Sadlier said it was possible to provide care for such patients in isolation rooms.

bill murray

SusieBlue wrote: »

Citation please for your claim that the majority of the Irish workforce suffer from conditions such as cystic fibrosis, cancer, kidney failure etc. cause I’ve searched online and have found absolutely nothing to back that up.
You’re the only bluffer here my friend.

I will repeat it again as you didn’t seem to comprehend it the previous two times I said it, cocooning will never be compulsory. Let those who want to do it, do it, and let everyone else go back to work with an accelerated gradual reopening of the various industries.
It’s really not that difficult a concept.

You said you knew people that would prefer to die alone painfully gasping for air slowly then sit at home and watch telly

bill murray

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

More than half of US states are opened already. Arizona got rid of their "covid response" medical team altogether.

BoJo told UK to get back to work, public transport packed since Monday.

What lockdown?

Probably the reason they had to throw so many bodies into mass graves so....

fryup

my gut feeling about all this - is that a month to six weeks down the line we'll be back to square one again and back indoors, lockdown part deux

Ginger n Lemon

bill murray wrote: »

Probably the reason they had to throw so many bodies into mass graves so....

Mass graves?

No1 has said this before in this thread, congrats. Any links to US or UK "mass graves"?

SusieBlue

bill murray wrote: »

You said you knew people that would prefer to die alone painfully gasping for air slowly then sit at home and watch telly

Yeah I never said that either, or even indirectly implied it, so you’re making yourself look quite stupid now.
Still waiting for evidence that the majority of the Irish workforce suffer from that long list of life threatening ailments.