Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

deisedevil

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Inactivity is dangerous

I'm very fit and active. No danger there.

deisedevil

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My point was that the recession will kill more people in Ireland than Covid has. Covid has currently killed 1500 in Ireland. A recession will very easily surpass that.

The studies that you are referring to are comparing a country in good times and a country in bad times. (Not just focusing on any 1 illness)

Of course it’s possible that less people would die during a recession as a result of less people working. That leads to less road deaths, less workplace accidents etc. Also, population tends to increase in countries in good time’s. A higher population will naturally mean more deaths. People leave countries during recession, which leads to less deaths. It’s extremely flawed logic to try take anything away from that.

Overall, richer countries have higher life expectancy. So it’s better to avoid recession.

Either way, none of it is relevant to my point. The recession will easily kill more than 1500 in Ireland.

Was there a greater spike in deaths during the last recession than in these these times with Covid? That would be interesting.

wakka12

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My point was that the recession will kill more people in Ireland than Covid has. Covid has currently killed 1500 in Ireland. A recession will very easily surpass that.

The studies that you are referring to are comparing a country in good times and a country in bad times. (Not just focusing on any 1 illness)

Of course it’s possible that less people would die during a recession as a result of less people working. That leads to less road deaths, less workplace accidents etc. Also, population tends to increase in countries in good time’s. A higher population will naturally mean more deaths. People leave countries during recession, which leads to less deaths. It’s extremely flawed logic to try take anything away from that.

Overall, richer countries have higher life expectancy. So it’s better to avoid recession.

Either way, none of it is relevant to my point. The recession will easily kill more than 1500 in Ireland.

Good god , covid has caused increased excess mortality. Recessions cause a reduction in excess mortality. How they die or what causes it is irrelevant as your point is that a recession will lead to more deaths than covid will, which is not true

Iamabeliever

deisedevil wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?

Construction is non essential. It can involve lads travelling from all parts of the country to site and then travelling back home. A person may travel from Cavan/Monaghan to Dublin and back etc.

So if you have a problem with non essential retail, you really should have a problem with non essential construction.

deisedevil

Iamabeliever wrote: »

Construction is non essential. It can involve lads travelling from all parts of the country to site and then travelling back home. A person may travel from Cavan/Monaghan to Dublin and back etc.

So if you have a problem with non essential retail, you really should have a problem with non essential construction.

I do.

Iamabeliever

deisedevil wrote: »

I do.

Alrighty then

2smiggy

Iamabeliever wrote: »

Construction is non essential. It can involve lads travelling from all parts of the country to site and then travelling back home. A person may travel from Cavan/Monaghan to Dublin and back etc.

So if you have a problem with non essential retail, you really should have a problem with non essential construction.

Your dead right, open up the curtain shops first. People need their curtains

Tell me how

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

There is no science behind lockdowns, wearing masks outside of hospitals or making airplanes fly with empty middle seats.

Theres a lot of science behind washing your hands.

We are the country who are experimenting with our kids mental health and social abilities, and educational prospects too. We are damaging our kids. Unfortunately. And as Leo said, it will look pretty bad if we are the last country to get our kids back to school.

We need to change and fix things much faster than 21st of July or 10th of August.

Apart form the 30 or 40 scientifically qualified members of NPHET.

Iamabeliever

2smiggy wrote: »

Your dead right, open up the curtain shops first. People need their curtains

I'm not a fan of curtains personally but I won't judge anyone who is.

Quantum Erasure

2smiggy wrote: »

Your dead right, open up the curtain shops first. People need their curtains

*twitch*

Goldengirl

SusieBlue wrote: »

If this is directed at me I never said that chemotherapy was cancelled, I said testing and screenings for various different cancers was cancelled.
Which it is and has been for the last 2 months.

I understand why transplants aren’t going ahead but I would have thought it was reasonable to assume some sort of plan could have been put in place over the last 2 months to find a solution to performing transplants going forward.
This isn’t forthcoming. Covid-19 isn’t going anywhere but neither is the need for this surgery.

Many people, not just here, are reporting difficulties scheduling appointments & surgeries because they are deemed not to be urgent enough.
You can keep insisting that it’s going ahead as normal but that isn’t reflective of what’s being posted here and elsewhere online.
This can’t be ignored and really isn’t acceptable going forward.

If you are going to accuse people of not sticking to the facts you should hold yourself to the same standard and stick to them too.

I’m going to ignore the Trump remark because it was beyond idiotic and a cheap shot.

In answer to your remarks to me earlier.
Calling my post infantile is beyond idiotic and a cheap shot ..not nice when you hear that back , is it?

You can't see anything except your own POV.

Yes elective surgery and routine screening is cancelled . Nothing that might put hospital staff or patients at risk is going ahead at present , and that risk is being weighed up by someone above our pay grade , all the time.

Cancer treatment eg chemotherapy for some patients ongoing. As for transplants , it would be extremely foolhardy to further weaken an already immunocompromised patient to do surgery at this time.
Elective Surgery is cancelled as asymptomatic patients have been shown to have very poor outcomes if they are exposed to Covid either during or post OP, and no rational surgeon wants to risk that .
That is why some illnesses are treated while others are being left to wait. In an IDEAL world this would not be the case and no healthcare professional wants to hear that people are not getting their long awaited surgery, but there is no choice at present .

This disease is not wreaking havoc or killing excessive numbers of younger people because it is being suppressed . That is why the restrictions will not be lifted to allow routine procedures and outpatients appointments to go ahead.

I don't say that hospitals are mad busy but that the workload is very onerous in the present situation.
And nobody has any idea how long this will go on for or when things will return to normal.
Staff are having to take leave so that everyone isn't wrecked , and to mind children . They are also restricted in rotating staff so each area can work without needing relief or agency .
I never said that this has not had an effect on other illnesses , but in the circumstances , which are unlike anything experienced in living memory , I think the vast majority of people are understanding .
So when do you think it would be a good time to lift all the restrictions in hospitals so that very I'll and vulnerable people can be treated ? You say it would be nice to know that this is being planned for ...wow, why didn't we think of doing that? Must send a mail straight to Tony to tell him to do that :0

Call your GP about your test , please . Maybe he will explain it to you if you don't take my word for it. If you are symptomatic or urgent it will be done .

Goldengirl

MadYaker wrote: »

Do all these idiots not realise that the lockdown is the reason we didn't see scenes like Italy and Spain? Has everyone just forgot what happened there?

This !

MadYaker

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Sweden havent seen 200k dead.

It was predictions like so that caused restrictions to be implemented in Ireland. That was the justification

Exactly. The modelling predicted a worse case scenario which we then avoided with the lockdown measures we took. Just because the worst case scenario didn’t happen doesn’t mean the modelling was wrong. Those predictions were based on what would happen if we made no attempts to curtail the virus.

Why do you think case numbers in Italy and Spain dropped drastically? What actions did they take that made the numbers drop? It wasn’t olive oil and sunshine.

Our “lockdown” was nothing compared to theirs. In Madrid and Paris for almost 2 months people were allowed to leave their houses once a week to go shopping and that was it. No kids allowed out, outdoor exercise banned, police and army on the streets stopping everyone 24/7. A lot of people in this thread need to grow up.

pjohnson

MadYaker wrote: »

Exactly. The modelling predicted a worse case scenario which we then avoided with the lockdown measures we took. Just because the worst case scenario didn’t happen doesn’t mean the modelling was wrong. Those predictions were based on what would happen if we made no attempts to curtail the virus.

Why do you think case numbers in Italy and Spain dropped drastically? What actions did they take that made the numbers drop? It wasn’t olive oil and sunshine.

Our “lockdown” was nothing compared to theirs. In Madrid and Paris for almost 2 months people were allowed to leave their houses once a week to go shopping and that was it. No kids allowed out, outdoor exercise banned, police and army on the streets stopping everyone 24/7. A lot of people in this thread need to grow up.

Sure they bleat about how Ireland had "the most restrictive lockdown in th world". The regulars in this thread have whipped themselves into a frenzy detached from any reality!

uli84

Sure not a big deal, Covid-19 crisis sees day case waiting list grow by 19,000, probably will add just 2 years to the usual waiting times but hey I am ever so grateful I could walk for 2 km during the lockdown while in Madrid they had to stay home for 2 months

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/covid-19-crisis-sees-day-case-waiting-list-grow-by-19000-999902.html

Heckler

I travel 15 km to and from work as I am considered an essential worker. Social distancing has become very very lax where i am.

My mother is 87. Staying with my sister. I called over and had a coffee over a kitchen table. Irresponsible to many maybe. I'm not going to go 10 weeks without seeing my loved ones. And before you start Kermit piss off.

wakka12

wakka12 wrote: »

Good god , covid has caused increased excess mortality. Recessions cause a reduction in excess mortality. How they die or what causes it is irrelevant as your point is that a recession will lead to more deaths than covid will, which is not true

I think you’re getting a bit confused. I never once said the overall morality rate of the entire country would increase. I said the recession would kill more people than Covid did. Covid has currently killed just over 1500 in Ireland.

Also, we don’t have any long term data to suggest Covid is causing excess morality. Less people are dying on the roads and in work accidents right now. You’d have to do a study over a couple of months to see whether those 1500 deaths had much impact at all on the morality rate.

Just as an aside, I work with figures all day. If my company loses our top 2 customers, there are actually a bunch of metrics and KPIs that would improve as a result. Of course, we’d have lost our 2 highest income streams. I take it you get the point.

lord quackinton

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0516/1138761-coronavirus-children-warning/

Nobody puts Tony in a corner
He ain’t going away you know

I can’t believe we actually still have people on this thread trying to justify keeping restrictions in place for another 3 months if not more.

We were told the reinfection rate should be less than one. It’s currently between 0.4 and 0.6. Hospitals are lying empty as we speak!!!

ICU is below 20% of the capacity we have. Countries all over Europe are getting back to normality.

There is no vaccine for the foreseeable future. What’s the plan here? Even if we get the numbers down to 0 and ban all air travel, somebody can still come down from the north and spread it.

We need to learn how to live with the virus, but our leaders are terrified. They heard some rumours that there would be queues at IKEA so they forced all homeware stores to remain closed.

I’m genuinely concerned about what criteria needs to be met to move into each phase. Even more concerned about how we’re going to pay back the 30 billion

Podge201

Get the 30 billion from China.

daithi7

SusieBlue wrote: »

The coronavirus ward in CUH is now closed.
3 patients were discharged today and 1 patient was transferred to another hospital in another county.
No new covid-19 admissions and no new cases confirmed in the hospital in the last 24 hours.

That’s not to say there won’t be more admissions next week etc (before anyone goes off on me), but as of now the ward is empty. No patients for the first time since March. How much lower do the numbers need to go?

I remember thinking a few weeks ago that it was starting to feel like we were sacrificing one section of society for another, and how it should be a bit more equal.
That we were all important.
Now it feels like we’re sacrificing the lives and futures of 99% of the population, for a very small minority & subsection of society.
The vast majority many for the very few. And no end whatsoever in sight.

Thanks for this info Susie,

This is the elephant in the room if you ask me. Because of the threat of covid 19 Ireland are now effectively ignoring the health needs of the general population & this will cost lives (&quality of lives).

With so few cases this is obviously dumb.

P.s. not to mind continuing with thr drastic economy wrecking, job losing, GDP lowering, business banishing, welfare affecting lockdown measures, that Nphet have got so attached to and like mandating for us....

Nickindublin

Deleted User wrote: »

I can’t believe we actually still have people on this thread trying to justify keeping restrictions in place for another 3 months if not more.

We were told the reinfection rate should be less than one. It’s currently between 0.4 and 0.6. Hospitals are lying empty as we speak!!!

ICU is below 20% of the capacity we have. Countries all over Europe are getting back to normality.

There is no vaccine for the foreseeable future. What’s the plan here? Even if we get the numbers down to 0 and ban all air travel, somebody can still come down from the north and spread it.

We need to learn how to live with the virus, but our leaders are terrified. They heard some rumours that there would be queues at IKEA so they forced all homeware stores to remain closed.

I’m genuinely concerned about what criteria needs to be met to move into each phase. Even more concerned about how we’re going to pay back the 30 billion

The goal posts are being changed all the time.

We need to be moving from lock down faster. Should be out of it fully by June 29. Italy travel restrictions gone on June 3rd. We will still be restricted upto August/Sept.

It seems this is going to now have to be paid for. Paschal started out we can do this for 18 months etc. Money is no problem etc. Not saying that now. Looks like a 30billion or more hole this year.

All I am hearing is of business not re opening. Restaurants Pubs Coffee Shops Hairdressers etc.

Met a friend yesterday who works in finance for a social distance coffee. He frightened me. He said whats coming we have not seen yet and its not good. He can see it in his position. Basically was saying people still have money. But business are running out of it and once the gov cant pay the extra money people will start running out. Said the amount of restructuring of mortgages/loans is massive. People he is talking to in the industry cant believe whats going on re the economy. Its like the government thinks this is going to bounce back. There are some saying we could end up with 800000 on social at end of year and that this will make the last crash a blip.

rob316

I'm heartbroken for my son he's 10, has autism and an ID, school is everything to him. Meets his sensory needs, provides him with structure to his day/week. It will be almost 6 months without school by the time September comes around. Its a disgrace and there is no sense why his school and schools like his can't open. 6 kids in a class and 3 adult teachers/assistants, social distancing isnt a problem.
All his excellent progress throughout the year is gone and he's beginning to regress 😩

MrDavid1976

daithi7 wrote: »

Thanks for this info Susie,

This is the elephant in the room if you ask me. Because of the threat of covid 19 Ireland are now effectively ignoring the health needs of the general population & this will cost lives (&quality of lives).

With so few cases this is obviously dumb.

P.s. not to mind continuing with thr drastic economy wrecking, job losing, GDP lowering, business banishing, welfare affecting lockdown measures, that Nphet have got so attached to and like mandating for us....

The HSE letter on Governance was quite telling. Nphet have given themselves powers they do not have. Alan Kelly was right when he highlighted that Tony Holohan undermining the Taoiseach was not good for the body politic. The Taoiseach yesterday was talking about powers for enforced quarantine which he knows are impossible legally especially from EU countries - and indeed worryingly he was still obsessed with the CTA.

But rather than us just moaning about our issues here we are probably better off writing to our local TDs. The propaganda campaign around project fear has become so great that the politicians yesterday were jubilant - meanwhile Italy is talking about opening up from abroad from 4 June. France will open its restaurants then also.

The sensible countries know that the worst is over and if there is a second wave in the autumn we just need to be prepared for it and to take the proportionate measures to address it.

Nickindublin

rob316 wrote: »

I'm heartbroken for my son he's 10, has autism and an ID, school is everything to him. Meets his sensory needs, provides him with structure to his day/week. It will be almost 6 months without school by the time September comes around. Its a disgrace and there is no sense why his school and schools like his can't open. 6 kids in a class and 3 adult teachers/assistants, social distancing isnt a problem.
All his excellent progress throughout the year is gone and he's beginning to regress ��

Rob that's awful. I feel for you. There are many stories like you. But we are not allowed to say. You cant criticise NPHET Government etc.

Voltex

Thank god there's some rational adults getting airtime in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSSNkUBf1g0

We need to start having these conversations here too!

MrDavid1976

Nickindublin wrote: »

The goal posts are being changed all the time.

We need to be moving from lock down faster. Should be out of it fully by June 29. Italy travel restrictions gone on June 3rd. We will still be restricted upto August/Sept.

It seems this is going to now have to be paid for. Paschal started out we can do this for 18 months etc. Money is no problem etc. Not saying that now. Looks like a 30billion or more hole this year.

All I am hearing is of business not re opening. Restaurants Pubs Coffee Shops Hairdressers etc.

Met a friend yesterday who works in finance for a social distance coffee. He frightened me. He said whats coming we have not seen yet and its not good. He can see it in his position. Basically was saying people still have money. But business are running out of it and once the gov cant pay the extra money people will start running out. Said the amount of restructuring of mortgages/loans is massive. People he is talking to in the industry cant believe whats going on re the economy. Its like the government thinks this is going to bounce back. There are some saying we could end up with 800000 on social at end of year and that this will make the last crash a blip.

This is very important.

The representative bodies need to start putting the gun to the Govt’s head. Local businesses need to be getting into the heads of TDs. They are in group think and just cannot see what is happening in the real world. The Govt formation talks are a distraction at this stage.

The HorsesMouth

rob316 wrote: »

I'm heartbroken for my son he's 10, has autism and an ID, school is everything to him. Meets his sensory needs, provides him with structure to his day/week. It will be almost 6 months without school by the time September comes around. Its a disgrace and there is no sense why his school and schools like his can't open. 6 kids in a class and 3 adult teachers/assistants, social distancing isnt a problem.
All his excellent progress throughout the year is gone and he's beginning to regress ��

I completely emphasise with your situaion, it is so tough on kids with special needs and their families. However just putting it into the bigger picture. If his school opens because there aren't as many children in the class then what do the children of those SNAs or teachers if their schools/crèches aren't open?

Also I have worked in a special school and a unit and social distancing is 100% impossible. There are toileting needs, behaviour problems etc.
Just to add though I would fully support your sons school reopening but along with every other creche/school and not under the ridiculous guise of social distancing.

rob316

Nickindublin wrote: »

Rob that's awful. I feel for you. There are many stories like you. But we are not allowed to say. You cant criticise NPHET Government etc.

A few TDs called for it but Tony but them down. We home school best we can, but its hopeless we can't provide what the school does. I'm up at night rattled wondering how we will manage the next 4 months from now. Summers are generally tough but you can go to Spain for a couple weeks and a few weekends away but your confined to your town now with nothing open.

the kelt

deisedevil wrote: »

Your going to die without homewares and the like are you? Do you understand what the word need really means? We need air, we need water, we need food. We don't need Tupperware boxes and pillow covers.

Sure if we look at what should be opened only on the basis of what we need then we might as well just stay in lock down and not bother opening up.

We don’t need a return to sports, travel abroad, restaurants etc etc, we don’t actually need a hair cut just a scissors.

However the point is the government released a road map to opening up business in the country. When businesses asked for clarity on that road map they were again referred to the road map and told to use common sense. So when the nature of your business is there in black and white on the road map common sense tells you...

So these businesses have spent the last 2 weeks getting ready to open, have spent money getting their business ready to open, have staff lined up to return to work and the knock on effect of all that only to be told 3 days before they’re due to open oops sorry my bad, bit of a typo there, yeah another 3 weeks for ye but thanks for everything your doing!

But apparently it’s all good because there would be too many people turning up in these places so we will push it back, push it back from the phase with a 5k restriction the the phase with a 20k restriction cos that will mean less people.

So to you it’s stuff that you don’t really need but to these people it’s their livelihoods and jobs.

And it will be better again with the vagueness in phase 2 (if we manage to get there) when small retail units can reopen. So once again look at the road map and use common sense, so basically up to you to decide if your business is small or not.