Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

growleaves

Snugglebunnies wrote: »

Does anyone know if any of the countries now easing restrictions have a roadmap to end social distancing between friends, families and partners? I know there is no light at the end of the tunnel in that regard for us.

Yes. The Netherlands are recommending single people pick one monogamous partner to be with. Reminds me of the AIDS crisis.

FintanMcluskey

ek motor wrote: »

It is true - 'The median age of confirmed cases is 48 years, while 3,062 cases (13%) have been hospitalised'

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0515/1138712-covid-update-ireland/

Please try putting forward your argument without posting blatant falsehoods.

No you have a serious misunderstanding of what asymptomatic means.
No one can accurately calculate the asymptomatic cases without testing the population every 2 weeks

iamwhoiam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

the 5km bit is the hardest thing right now (I think).

Next time there's clapping I'm not clapping for health care workers.

I'm clapping for the parents of all those young kids at home since 12th March, parents who are also working full time from home and dealing with phone calls from clients and their manager, at the same time as schooling their kids, parents of children with physical and mental disabilities and no respite, people just over cancer surgery with no follow up supports, people waiting for diagnosis of a lump. I'm clapping for people who have lost a loved one anytime in the last 5 years and are still so recently bereaved. Their sadness and loneliness must be crippling.
I'm clapping for anyone who opened a small business in the last year, spent so much money just to get a place open, decked the premises out, bought all their stock, many of these will never recover. We are all stuck at home. We are meant to be all in this together. We're not.

I really don't think Tony Holohan thinks of anything but Covid and his reputation. I am hugely disappointed in Leo Varadkar as he is the one who is meant to be able to see the overall picture, not just the health concerns, but the economic and overall well being of the Irish citizens. I can't believe how one dimensional this crisis has become!

Where are the other ministers at the moment, where is Simon Coveney? He is usually a rock of sense. Leo is a "yes" man. Simon Coveney is a negotiator and has a brain. Its like everyone apart from Leo, Simon Harris and Tony Holohan have gone into a Covid coma like the rest of us! Why is nobody asking questions?

Tony and NPHET have been working together non stop dealing with deaths , PPE , care homes , stats , etc etc
They have lost sight of the real human element , lost sight of reality , lost sight of normal life and people struggling . They are obsessed with figures , graphics, curves , tests , and have lost grip on how people are feeling .
They are in a bubble together and probably all think as one and living in fear of numbers on their graphs rising .
Meantime the public are in a very different place and so done with this restrictive slow moving road map

Leo Varadkar is a doctor, his partner Matthew Barrett is a doctor, Tony Holohan is a doctor.............

This means that the only lens Leo Varadkar is looking through at the moment is medical. There is no balance, no pendulum. He is getting this morning, noon, night and even the pillow talk must be Covid 19 and hospital numbers of the day!

Is it any wonder he is steering the country over a financial cliff ? You know that saying " you cant see the woods for the trees"?? He is too involved medically to get a balanced perspective.

Does anyone honestly think Enda Kenny or Haughey would have meekly followed these restrictions with no questions to the CMO as long as this ?? I doubt it.

SusieBlue

Goldengirl wrote: »

In answer to your remarks to me earlier.
Calling my post infantile is beyond idiotic and a cheap shot ..not nice when you hear that back , is it?

You can't see anything except your own POV.

Yes elective surgery and routine screening is cancelled . Nothing that might put hospital staff or patients at risk is going ahead at present , and that risk is being weighed up by someone above our pay grade , all the time.

Cancer treatment eg chemotherapy for some patients ongoing. As for transplants , it would be extremely foolhardy to further weaken an already immunocompromised patient to do surgery at this time.
Elective Surgery is cancelled as asymptomatic patients have been shown to have very poor outcomes if they are exposed to Covid either during or post OP, and no rational surgeon wants to risk that .
That is why some illnesses are treated while others are being left to wait. In an IDEAL world this would not be the case and no healthcare professional wants to hear that people are not getting their long awaited surgery, but there is no choice at present .

This disease is not wreaking havoc or killing excessive numbers of younger people because it is being suppressed . That is why the restrictions will not be lifted to allow routine procedures and outpatients appointments to go ahead.

I don't say that hospitals are mad busy but that the workload is very onerous in the present situation.
And nobody has any idea how long this will go on for or when things will return to normal.
Staff are having to take leave so that everyone isn't wrecked , and to mind children . They are also restricted in rotating staff so each area can work without needing relief or agency .
I never said that this has not had an effect on other illnesses , but in the circumstances , which are unlike anything experienced in living memory , I think the vast majority of people are understanding .
So when do you think it would be a good time to lift all the restrictions in hospitals so that very I'll and vulnerable people can be treated ? You say it would be nice to know that this is being planned for ...wow, why didn't we think of doing that? Must send a mail straight to Tony to tell him to do that :0

Call your GP about your test , please . Maybe he will explain it to you if you don't take my word for it. If you are symptomatic or urgent it will be done .

I have no intention of getting into a back and forth of semantics to you, what was necessary on March 15th is no longer necessary, that’s the bottom line.
That’s the issue here no matter how hard you try to justify current conditions. It simply isn’t acceptable any more.

Hospitals are running at significantly reduced capacity while the covid-19 wards lay empty. Community transmission is at almost zero.
The curve was completely flattened, the daily cases are consistently dropping, and the only place the infection isn’t under control is care settings & nursing homes, neither of which the public are responsible for.

We are 9 weeks into lockdown, and we have 12 more weeks of restrictions to look forward to before we have any kind of normality. That means some people are going to be out of work for almost 6 months, and that’s if they even have jobs to go back to.

92 new cases today, the lowest it’s been since the very early days in March and some people still can’t see the wood from the trees. It’s unbelievable.

coastwatch

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No you have a serious misunderstanding of what asymptomatic means.
No one can accurately calculate the asymptomatic cases without testing the population every 2 weeks

Who is going to tell the italians and new yorkers to stop complaining, "it's no worse than any seasonal respiratory illness"

Stark

Well there's some positive news. Just spotted that "to escape domestic violence" is now added to the list of valid reasons to leave your home from Monday. https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cf9b0d-new-public-health-measures-effective-now-to-prevent-further-spread-o/#the-only-reasons-you-can-leave-your-home

Just hope no-one finds themselves in trouble between now and then.

Goldengirl

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Dont worry Pal, I was working all day yesterday, and today Im not making unnecessary journeys as directed by the government, so I have loads of time for arguing.

I think its only fair to call out your hysteric ramblings for the balance of argument on the thread. Your starting to beat a lonely drum here, however, and suggesting this is lethal to all will get called out.

You weren't working very hard " pal" , unless you are a mod on boards?
And a lot more rational people here now as well with reasoned debate putting you in your place.
Let's see who is hysterical..the one who spends all day on two or three threads spouting the same bs , or someone who tries to get through this as best possible and occasionally adds a few comments. Grow up !

podgeandrodge

A TOP Swedish doctor was warned that Ireland's lockdown is "destroying" our country's society and economy and is only pushing more serious Covid-19 cases into the future.

Professor Johan Giesecke, a former state epidemiologist for Sweden and current advisor to the country's government, reckons lockdowns are not a good solution to the Covid crisis.

Professor Johan Giesecke doesn't think lockdown is a good solution to the crisis
Ireland is set to enter phase one of lifting lockdown from Monday

European countries have taken different approaches to lockdownCredit: PA:Press Association
Speaking on Newstalk Breakfast, Giesecke said: "I don't think that serial lock-up is a very good solution.

"You are destroying the fabric of your society and your economy and you're pushing the serious cases into the future."

To make his argument, he compared the death toll rates in the UK to Sweden, the latter currently only under a "soft lockdown" with less severe restrictions including no crowds of more than 50 people.

The professor said: "One example is your neighbour - the United Kingdom. They have more deaths per million inhabitants than Sweden has and they've had a rather severe lockdown.

"The other is that what you do is you push your cases into the future.

"Many people will get infected once you open the lockdown."

When asked if trying to resist the coronavirus is futile, the professor replied: "Yes, I guess so. That's true for all respiratory tract infections like influenza, measles.

"You can't get rid of them without a vaccine. If a good vaccine comes along, then I'm wrong.

"But if not, everyone will get it in the end."

Giesecke also said he was unsure if people should be optimistic about a coronavirus vaccine.

He said that because it is still unclear the type of immunity people get after becoming infected, it is hard to tell how effective a vaccine could be.

The professor said: "If the natural disease doesn't give good immunity then there's small chance a vaccine will be able to do that."

Giesecke did also outline the positive effects of a lockdown, however.

He said: "That's a reason to have a lockdown - that you flatten the curve a bit. That's done by the lockdown.

"They are not completely unnecessary but they will not prevent people from becoming infected in the future."

prunudo

Snugglebunnies wrote: »

Does anyone know if any of the countries now easing restrictions have a roadmap to end social distancing between friends, families and partners? I know there is no light at the end of the tunnel in that regard for us.

My boyfriend visited my house earlier and had a very socially distant chat in the garden with myself and my daughter. I think it actually made me feel worse to be honest. I get the reason for social distancing but it feels like we're living in some sort of dystopia at this point.

Do as your user name suggests, give the man a hug. We have to learn to live with this virus. What you described is no way to live.

the kelt

It’s bizarre though that there’s posters on here who are practically praying for a second wave of this to hit just so they can come on here and say “I told you so” even though the second wave brings obvious hardship and deaths to those who can be affected by this.

Yet suggest an earlier easing of restrictions and they accuse others of thinking of themselves and bringing about obvious hardships and deaths.

Now that’s messed up, bring on deaths as long as I can say I told you so!

Bonkers

Goldengirl

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No you have a serious misunderstanding of what asymptomatic means.
No one can accurately calculate the asymptomatic cases without testing the population every 2 weeks

Of course, so they can't account for those numbers except by using a universally approved added estimate, which is ?

angela1711

How the hell am I suppose to go back to work on Monday if all childcare facilities are shut and you are not allowed to hire a babysitter either ? It looks like one of my co-workers with school-aged kids won’t be able to go back to work until September ?! What are people with children suppose to do ?

MrDavid1976

podgeandrodge wrote: »

A TOP Swedish doctor was warned that Ireland's lockdown is "destroying" our country's society and economy and is only pushing more serious Covid-19 cases into the future.

Professor Johan Giesecke, a former state epidemiologist for Sweden and current advisor to the country's government, reckons lockdowns are not a good solution to the Covid crisis.

Professor Johan Giesecke doesn't think lockdown is a good solution to the crisis
Ireland is set to enter phase one of lifting lockdown from Monday

European countries have taken different approaches to lockdownCredit: PA:Press Association
Speaking on Newstalk Breakfast, Giesecke said: "I don't think that serial lock-up is a very good solution.

"You are destroying the fabric of your society and your economy and you're pushing the serious cases into the future."

To make his argument, he compared the death toll rates in the UK to Sweden, the latter currently only under a "soft lockdown" with less severe restrictions including no crowds of more than 50 people.

The professor said: "One example is your neighbour - the United Kingdom. They have more deaths per million inhabitants than Sweden has and they've had a rather severe lockdown.

"The other is that what you do is you push your cases into the future.

"Many people will get infected once you open the lockdown."

When asked if trying to resist the coronavirus is futile, the professor replied: "Yes, I guess so. That's true for all respiratory tract infections like influenza, measles.

"You can't get rid of them without a vaccine. If a good vaccine comes along, then I'm wrong.

"But if not, everyone will get it in the end."

Giesecke also said he was unsure if people should be optimistic about a coronavirus vaccine.

He said that because it is still unclear the type of immunity people get after becoming infected, it is hard to tell how effective a vaccine could be.

The professor said: "If the natural disease doesn't give good immunity then there's small chance a vaccine will be able to do that."

Giesecke did also outline the positive effects of a lockdown, however.

He said: "That's a reason to have a lockdown - that you flatten the curve a bit. That's done by the lockdown.

"They are not completely unnecessary but they will not prevent people from becoming infected in the future."

Our strange exit from this is certainly raising eyebrows. And will certainly cause more financial hardship.

ZX7R

Anybody have an idea when government offices will open i.e passport office

Flimsy_Boat

Deleted User wrote: »

Leo Varadkar is a doctor, his partner Matthew Barrett is a doctor, Tony Holohan is a doctor.............

This means that the only lens Leo Varadkar is looking through at the moment is medical. There is no balance, no pendulum. He is getting this morning, noon, night and even the pillow talk must be Covid 19 and hospital numbers of the day!

Is it any wonder he is steering the country over a financial cliff ? You know that saying " you cant see the woods for the trees"?? He is too involved medically to get a balanced perspective.

Does anyone honestly think Enda Kenny or Haughey would have meekly followed these restrictions with no questions to the CMO as long as this ?? I doubt it.

I'm currently studying medicine and see things through a medical lens, and think Leo is the bee's knees, but I think you make a very valid point. Medical advice is often very conservative and can ignore practical issues. An example is a GP recommending an expensive course of treatment and insisting on it. Yes, it may be the best way to defeat the illness but the patients' financial or social limitations or preferences ought to be considered as well. It's just a function of our training. It would be good if more consideration could be given to the economy before it falls of the cliff.

MrDavid1976

SusieBlue wrote: »

I have no intention of getting into a back and forth of semantics to you, what was necessary on March 15th is no longer necessary, that’s the bottom line.
That’s the issue here no matter how hard you try to justify current conditions. It simply isn’t acceptable any more.

Hospitals are running at significantly reduced capacity while the covid-19 wards lay empty. Community transmission is at almost zero.
The curve was completely flattened, the daily cases are consistently dropping, and the only place the infection isn’t under control is care settings & nursing homes, neither of which the public are responsible for.

We are 9 weeks into lockdown, and we have 12 more weeks of restrictions to look forward to before we have any kind of normality. That means some people are going to be out of work for almost 6 months, and that’s if they even have jobs to go back to.

92 new cases today, the lowest it’s been since the very early days in March and some people still can’t see the wood from the trees. It’s unbelievable.

Laying this out there should mean a massive acceleration of the easing....but no.

VillageIdiot71

ZX7R wrote: »

Anybody have an idea when government offices will open i.e passport office

You should be able to get a passport online even now.

If you've a genuine urgent reason - not just "I booked me holibops, and I leave next week" they should have an emergency contact process as well.

ceadaoin.

ZX7R wrote: »

Anybody have an idea when government offices will open i.e passport office

I was wondering about that. I got my daughter a new passport in February and still didn't get the original documents back that I had to send. Thought they were just delayed but they actually aren't working at all? So no point even emailing them to ask about it?

KrustyUCC

92 cases today

I know that it's the weekend and reporting is usually quieter, but under 100 cases is brilliant to see

ZX7R

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

You should be able to get a passport online even now.

If you've a genuine urgent reason - not just "I booked me holibops, and I leave next week" they should have an emergency contact process as well.

They have and have been in touch ,they informed me to forward consent forms
But still showing up on tracking that the forms have not been received,I'll make contact again Monday thanks

Goldengirl

SusieBlue wrote: »

I have no intention of getting into a back and forth of semantics to you, what was necessary on March 15th is no longer necessary, that’s the bottom line.
That’s the issue here no matter how hard you try to justify current conditions. It simply isn’t acceptable any more.

Hospitals are running at significantly reduced capacity while the covid-19 wards lay empty. Community transmission is at almost zero.
The curve was completely flattened, the daily cases are consistently dropping, and the only place the infection isn’t under control is care settings & nursing homes, neither of which the public are responsible for.

We are 9 weeks into lockdown, and we have 12 more weeks of restrictions to look forward to before we have any kind of normality. That means some people are going to be out of work for almost 6 months, and that’s if they even have jobs to go back to.

92 new cases today, the lowest it’s been since the very early days in March and some people still can’t see the wood from the trees. It’s unbelievable.

I don't disagree with you, but am disappointed you don't understand my point of view.
I think that areas are being cordoned off toget back to routine non Covid work , but it will be slow and careful. Higher risk patients will be the slowest to be sorted which means transplants and cancer patients unfortunately, unless they can be treated in separate high tech hospitals altogether, with their own dedicated staff.
I would like to see restrictions lifted, especially schools and childcare, but because of my work, am mindful that every point of increase ithe infection rate can mean hundreds more cases follow.
My husbands job is at risk along with other family members too.

Nermal

Goldengirl wrote: »

Of course, so they can't account for those numbers except by using a universally approved added estimate, which is ?

We don't need estimates, we have serology studies. Middle column.

https://twitter.com/RF_HFC/status/1252210492531183622

Bear in mind this is 'attended the hospital'.

Not 'would have died if didn't attend hospital'.

Repeating any statistic where the denominator is confirmed cases is fearmongering.

FintanMcluskey

Nermal wrote: »

We don't need estimates, we have serology studies. Middle column.

https://twitter.com/RF_HFC/status/1252210492531183622

Bear in mind this is 'attended the hospital'.

Not 'would have died if didn't attend hospital'.

Repeating any statistic where the denominator is confirmed cases is fearmongering.

That poster, like Tony Holohan is still approaching this as if the fatality rate was still 6%, as initially thought at the time of implementing the restrictions in Ireland.

JPCN1

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I'm under no illusion that there is going to be quite some amount of arse covering in the decision making process.

And probably also some kicking the can syndrome which I see in corporate decision making processes too these days. As in avoid a decision until it can no longer be avoided and then make it unanimous so in case we got it wrong its no one's fault (it was the consensus at the time, what else could we do?).

But do really think they gamble the fate of the country on popularity percentages and party squabbles? I for one will give them the benefit of the doubt and rule that out for now.

I think all politicians count votes. Always have always will and I think Leo is worse than most. Will the talks with the Greens work and even if they do a coalition between FF, FG and the Greens will be a shaky as a drunk on an ice rink.

Simon Coveney had the support of two thirds of the party members and Leo had most of the TD's who presumably he'd done deals with. With the second or third best performing economy in Europe he managed to lose a third of his parties seats. He refused to make a decision on Bailey and let the members do that for him...Suddenly the members need to be listened to...

We'll come out of this only because the numbers in other countries will dictate that we do imo.

Kermit.de.frog

We don't listen to media, scientists, experts, precedent....we have our feelings sums up some posters in this thread.

Very aligned to these people...very aligned

https://twitter.com/KevinVesey/status/1261001977598808065

It's uncanny :eek:

Stormyteacup

Goldengirl wrote: »

They do and they explain them for all to hear , on every daily briefing , repeatedly, again and again , over and over, like a boards.ie poster, lol.

Okay well I had been listening carefully, I thought.

The only target I heard from our CMO was ‘as low as possible’.

I will admit to be banging my drum a little bit, but would genuinely appreciate if you can tell me what the criteria are for moving to phase 2?

FintanMcluskey

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We don't listen to media, scientists, experts, precedent....we have our feelings sums up some posters in this thread.

Very aligned to these people...very aligned

https://twitter.com/KevinVesey/status/1261001977598808065

It's uncanny :eek:

Seen a placard in that video

"Coronavirus is not going away, but small businesses are"

There was more common sense on that placard than some of the posts here.

Colibri

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We don't listen to media, scientists, experts, precedent....we have our feelings sums up some posters in this thread.

Very aligned to these people...very aligned

https://twitter.com/KevinVesey/status/1261001977598808065

It's uncanny :eek:

That's a cheap shot.

Ginger n Lemon

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We don't listen to media, scientists, experts, precedent....we have our feelings sums up some posters in this thread.

Very aligned to these people...very aligned

https://twitter.com/KevinVesey/status/1261001977598808065

It's uncanny :eek:

You dont see the bigger picture. The very fact so many people protest and ignore coronaflu, defeats the purpose of any lockdown.

Arizona have sacked their whole "covid medical response team". More than 30 US states are already opened.

Unless Ireland will cocoon itself until a vaccine is found and close its borders, what we are doing till 10th of Aug is pointless.