Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

zerosugarbuzz

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm sorry but this just is not true at all and filled with hyperbole like the "war on coronavirus" and "no amount of jobs is worth a single death".

This will probably sound harsh but here's the reality as I see it.

I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who has died or lost loved ones as a result of the virus. Let's get that out there first and foremost...

But...

1. The vast majority of these people are those who had serious medical problems that were going only one way anyway. The virus accelerated the process but death was probably not far away in many cases regardless.
Also, as someone whose mother wasted away strapped to oxygen machines and nebulisers for the last 2 years of her life, I can tell you that it was no way to go and she herself wanted it to end. Quality of life is far more important than quantity.

For the overwhelming majority of people, coronavirus means taking some sensible precautions and improving their hygiene. If they do get it, it's unlikely they'll need hospitalisation and may not even realise they had it at all.


2. We aren't just talking about jobs and the economy but the very real pressures these will lead to on people. Hundreds of thousands out there are reading that independent article this morning and worrying about how they feed their family, themselves and pay for the roof over their heads if they cannot get back to work.
The social and personal cost will be enormous - predicted to be far worse than 2008 - 2013ish - and it will affect EVERYONE.

No money means services and supports are cut. Other vital medical treatments are delayed or cancelled, infrastructure suffers, mental stress, substance abuse and suicide increases.


3. Coronavirus is going nowhere for the foreseeable future no matter how long we try to hide from it in Ireland. All we are doing here at this point is unnecessarily exacerbating the problems and the length of time it'll take to recover and the pain that will be inflicted in the meantime.

We need to learn to live alongside it while still doing those things that are essential not just to an economy, but to LIVING.

Hallelujah, well said!

lord quackinton

average_runner wrote: »

But you got to compare like with like. Cant compare us to Sweden, but can compare Sweden to finland

Racist

average_runner

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm sorry but this just is not true at all and filled with hyperbole like the "war on coronavirus" and "no amount of jobs is worth a single death".

This will probably sound harsh but here's the reality as I see it.

I feel genuinely sorry for anyone who has died or lost loved ones as a result of the virus. Let's get that out there first and foremost...

But...

1. The vast majority of these people are those who had serious medical problems that were going only one way anyway. The virus accelerated the process but death was probably not far away in many cases regardless.
Also, as someone whose mother wasted away strapped to oxygen machines and nebulisers for the last 2 years of her life, I can tell you that it was no way to go and she herself wanted it to end. Quality of life is far more important than quantity.

For the overwhelming majority of people, coronavirus means taking some sensible precautions and improving their hygiene. If they do get it, it's unlikely they'll need hospitalisation and may not even realise they had it at all.


2. We aren't just talking about jobs and the economy but the very real pressures these will lead to on people. Hundreds of thousands out there are reading that independent article this morning and worrying about how they feed their family, themselves and pay for the roof over their heads if they cannot get back to work.
The social and personal cost will be enormous - predicted to be far worse than 2008 - 2013ish - and it will affect EVERYONE.

No money means services and supports are cut. Other vital medical treatments are delayed or cancelled, infrastructure suffers, mental stress, substance abuse and suicide increases.


3. Coronavirus is going nowhere for the foreseeable future no matter how long we try to hide from it in Ireland. All we are doing here at this point is unnecessarily exacerbating the problems and the length of time it'll take to recover and the pain that will be inflicted in the meantime.

We need to learn to live alongside it while still doing those things that are essential not just to an economy, but to LIVING.

We will learn to live with it, that's the next few months, social distancing is here to stay, where u can work from home is here to stay for a year or so. Where u can shoo online is more important now. Transport should change now, hopefully for the better.

As a result of working from home, shops will.close but it's a better quality of life for me going forward

growleaves

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm sorry but this just is not true at all and filled with hyperbole like the "war on coronavirus" and "no amount of jobs is worth a single death".

Paddygreen is a satiric parody account. Hence the hyperbole.

ChelseaRentBoy

Paddygreen wrote: »

Eamon Ryan and co will be pivotal in setting up the post lockdown economy. A Green New Deal will be what is needed.!

People aren't going to give a hoot about the environment for the next few years when they find it hard to put food on the table and roof over their head. The economy is in the sh1tter and Brexit hasn't even happened yet. The Green's shouldn't be let anywhere near government imo.

_Kaiser_

growleaves wrote: »

Paddygreen is a satiric parody account. Hence the hyperbole.

Yep but in fairness the post I responded to was a little better and reflective of many opinions expressed by others in this thread, so worth responding to

robbiezero

CruelSummer wrote: »

This main headline in the Independent says Ireland’s approach is conservative, is taking too long and will lose 200,000+ jobs.
How can the government stand over what they’re doing to the country?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/bank-bailout-risk-in-covid-threat-to-jobs-39211137.html

Dont mind that. Sher Kermit says the economy will be back to normal by end of summer.

Galwayguy35

average_runner wrote: »

We will learn to live with it, that's the next few months, social distancing is here to stay, where u can work from home is here to stay for a year or so. Where u can shoo online is more important now. Transport should change now, hopefully for the better.

As a result of working from home, shops will.close but it's a better quality of life for me going forward

And what about the people working in those shops that will close?

Does it not bother you that they will lose their jobs?

MrDavid1976

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

People aren't going to give a hoot about the environment for the next few years when they find it hard to put food on the table and roof over their head. The economy is in the sh1tter and Brexit hasn't even happened yet. The Green's shouldn't be let anywhere near government imo.

I think now is the time to try to readjust our economy and society. Not sure I want them near Government either but policies to decarbonise are not wrong.

FG in the next 3 months if they stay the course on the current reopening policy will do more damage to the economy than any other Government in the history of the State. Leo, Harris, Murphy, Humphreys are so far out of their depth it is incredible. Only four have any cop on - Donoghue, Doherty, Flanagan and Coveney.

Ginger n Lemon

How long before Leo & Co realise our coffers arent exactly full either?

"Italy is taking a "calculated risk" in easing its lockdown measures, PM Giuseppe Conte has admitted. He said "the contagion curve" could rise again, but the country could not afford to wait for a vaccine

Shops and restaurants are also due to reopen from 18 May providing social distancing is enforced.
Gyms, swimming pools and sports centres will reopen on 25 May, and cinemas and theatres on 15 June.

"We're facing a calculated risk in the knowledge that the contagion curve may rise again," Mr Conte said in a televised address late on Saturday.

"We have to accept it otherwise we will never be able to start up again."


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52687448

average_runner

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And what about the people working in those shops that will close?

Does it not bother you that they will lose their jobs?

But hasn't that happened over the last 30 years?
That will never change and was happening already. We are changing to a society that is moving from city centres etc.

_Kaiser_

average_runner wrote: »

Recession will be short lived. Alot of medical companies are booming right now. IT is still going strong.

Things will change but that be for the better. Less pubs for example. Hopefully we continue with new pace of life, seeing families in the park, neighbour's building a community instead of all rushing around

I disagree. Medical companies are booming but the profits won't be taxed (enough) here. If Trump gets his way many of these companies will move back to the States in the medium term. What that would do to somewhere like Cork is massive.

IT is a variable across every sector. In our place we've already seen pay cuts for all staff and people forced to take annual leave now rather than later in the summer.
Former colleagues in a big IT multinational have taken voluntary redundancy. Another in a different sector entirely has been laid off not so voluntarily this week (and these are people in mid-senior roles with decades of experience)

There's also a lot of sectors and businesses that have been badly hit and many won't recover in the short or medium term or at all.

As for the rest of your post, it's idealistic but not likely unfortunately. There will be no grand awakening of society to the ills of the rat race. Of course everyone would like to get out more and spend more time with family and friends, but that's not the society or economic model we have or will adopt in the aftermath. There's too much money and influence behind getting us back to "normal" as quickly as possible.

average_runner

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

How long before Leo & Co realise our coffers arent exactly full either?

"Italy is taking a "calculated risk" in easing its lockdown measures, PM Giuseppe Conte has admitted. He said "the contagion curve" could rise again, but the country could not afford to wait for a vaccine

Shops and restaurants are also due to reopen from 18 May providing social distancing is enforced.
Gyms, swimming pools and sports centres will reopen on 25 May, and cinemas and theatres on 15 June.

"We're facing a calculated risk in the knowledge that the contagion curve may rise again," Mr Conte said in a televised address late on Saturday.

"We have to accept it otherwise we will never be able to start up again."


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52687448

If that works there we will open quicker. We aren't the test sample and their lockdown was more severe.

Gael23

At all stages of the roadmap it states social distancing must be maintained. I don’t see anything about lifting that and going back to life as it was before March?

ek motor

Gael23 wrote: »

At all stages of the roadmap it states social distancing must be maintained. I don’t see anything about lifting that and going back to life as it was before March?

That won't be happening for a long time.

is_that_so

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

How long before Leo & Co realise our coffers arent exactly full either?

"Italy is taking a "calculated risk" in easing its lockdown measures, PM Giuseppe Conte has admitted. He said "the contagion curve" could rise again, but the country could not afford to wait for a vaccine

Shops and restaurants are also due to reopen from 18 May providing social distancing is enforced.
Gyms, swimming pools and sports centres will reopen on 25 May, and cinemas and theatres on 15 June.

"We're facing a calculated risk in the knowledge that the contagion curve may rise again," Mr Conte said in a televised address late on Saturday.

"We have to accept it otherwise we will never be able to start up again."


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52687448

We came into this in in a very good place financially. The surplus has been drained but really no challenge in terms of funding this with really cheap money. Bear in mind too that 200K or so will be going back to work over the next 3 weeks. In 12 weeks time or so, unemployment will be a small proportion of what it is at present.

average_runner

average_runner wrote: »

If vitamin d is so good, why are UAE, Qatar etc flying high in the numbers?

Fresh air theory? We have spent more time in fresh air over the last two months compare to normal, parks are full, people are exercising and relaxing . Numbers still went up.

Just two questions

Think LG the clothing even the men wear in UAE and Qatar and how that May recent vitamin d

Ginger n Lemon

Gael23 wrote: »

At all stages of the roadmap it states social distancing must be maintained. I don’t see anything about lifting that and going back to life as it was before March?

It's whatever you chose to do. I went to Aldi yesterday, substantially more people wearing masks based on Friday's advice (although Tony H said there is little science behind masks) albeit incorrectly and didnt even cover noses etc.

So I didnt wear one, I smiled to Aldi cashier and she smiled at me. And i bought my food and went home. I am still doing fine btw.

Reality is you could drive at 5km per hour and you are unlikely to ever get into a car crash, if you want to minimise risks do just that and wear astronaut suit to protect against covid.

fly_agaric

Gael23 wrote: »

At all stages of the roadmap it states social distancing must be maintained. I don’t see anything about lifting that and going back to life as it was before March?

Yes. Going to be weird for a while.
I only dip in and out but I remember this thread erupting in praise for Germany for restarting professional soccer + usual gnashing of teeth (to put it mildly) about tardiness here.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52691666

Teams arrived in several buses so players could socially distance on the journey to the game.

Players and staff had all been quarantining in team hotels all week and are being tested for coronavirus regularly.

As they left the buses they wore facemasks on their way into the ground.

Other people attending the games, including the media, had their temperatures checked.

Fans were banned from matches, with police patrolling to make sure no crowds gathered at the venues. Only 213 people were allowed into the ground - 98 on and around the pitch (like players, coaches and ball boys) and 115 in the stands (such as security, medics and media).

Another 109 people (including security and VAR operators) were allowed just outside the stadium.

Footballs were disinfected by ball boys before the game and again at half-time.

This isn't normality as I remember it!

Ginger n Lemon

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes. Going to be weird for a while.
I only dip in and out but I remember this thread erupting in praise for Germany for restarting professional soccer + usual gnashing of teeth (to put it mildly) about tardiness here.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52691666



This isn't normality as I remember it!

You are right. What happened with Germany's R number?? Google is pretty quiet on that, last google result goes back to 4 days ago.

And yes, return to football went as well as it couldve had. I heard a rumour that in the next season in Bundesliga they ll start filling stadiums with fans through mass temperature testing + social distancing (those stadiums are huge, 50% capacity would be like 25-30k people.

growleaves

ek motor wrote: »

That won't be happening for a long time.

Are you privy to an inside source of information or making a prediction?

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I disagree. Medical companies are booming but the profits won't be taxed (enough) here. If Trump gets his way many of these companies will move back to the States in the medium term. What that would do to somewhere like Cork is massive.

IT is a variable across every sector. In our place we've already seen pay cuts for all staff and people forced to take annual leave now rather than later in the summer.
Former colleagues in a big IT multinational have taken voluntary redundancy. Another in a different sector entirely has been laid off not so voluntarily this week (and these are people in mid-senior roles with decades of experience)

There's also a lot of sectors and businesses that have been badly hit and many won't recover in the short or medium term or at all.

As for the rest of your post, it's idealistic but not likely unfortunately. There will be no grand awakening of society to the ills of the rat race. Of course everyone would like to get out more and spend more time with family and friends, but that's not the society or economic model we have or will adopt in the aftermath. There's too much money and influence behind getting us back to "normal" as quickly as possible.

What trump wants and what trump gets are two different things. In the medical device sector for one, the proportion of revenue generated outside the US has in the past 10 years started to far outstrip that within the US, even though ASPs in the US are far higher. EMEA and APAC are becoming for more important regions than the US for these companies. And if the US becomes more protectionist, having a significant manufacturing base outside the US will become more important

average_runner

Italy is making an hail Mary pass, it's a massive risk but could pay off. Their economy was in tatters before this and have nothing to lose. If it fails they go back into lockdown.

Ireland is more conservative, so if Italy and other countries fail we will learn and adapt and hopefully avoid a lockdown. If Italy works we will have to adopt that approach

Worst scenario both fail and it gets out of control, hospitals numbers go over the benchmark and we lose.

Another way to put it we are the old arsenal under George graham, Italy are the Newcastle under kevin Keegan

Jim Root

Reading the Sunday papers, lots of sectors moaning/asking to be allowed reopen earlier

snotboogie

Gael23 wrote: »

At all stages of the roadmap it states social distancing must be maintained. I don’t see anything about lifting that and going back to life as it was before March?

It's the new normal! Social distancing is just like washing your hands!

snotboogie

average_runner wrote: »

But hasn't that happened over the last 30 years?
That will never change and was happening already. We are changing to a society that is moving from city centres etc.

No, the exact opposite of what you stated has been happening. Urbanisation has been the defining trend of humanity over the last 30 years

growleaves

average_runner wrote: »

Italy are the Newcastle under kevin Keegan

I would love it if we beat the coronavirus. I would love it.

growleaves

snotboogie wrote: »

It's the new normal! Social distancing is just like washing your hands!

It's abnormal and always will be. It's damaging to children. It makes human life impossible. It isn't backed by solid science like hand hygiene.

Lord Trollington

Jim Root wrote: »

Reading the Sunday papers, lots of sectors moaning/asking to be allowed reopen earlier

This is going on 2 months now.

There is hundreds of thousands at home getting handouts. Its been said 1 million times - it is simply not sustainable .

Put extreme protection measure in for the elderly . Protect the vulnerable and high risk. Everyone else get back to work, get back to life. Get back to living .

This absolute bullsh!t has gone on long enough.

gmisk

growleaves wrote: »

It's abnormal and always will be. It's damaging to children. It makes human life impossible. It isn't backed by solid science like hand hygiene.

I would have thought social distancing has plenty of solid science behind it....
If you cut down on the number of people who you spend time in close contact with there is less chance of you getting it...same with flu a cold etc.