Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Ginger n Lemon

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The figures in the North are nowhere near as bad as other countries, while the amount of travel may be higher, but if we approach this from an island point of view we need to do something about travel originating outside the island.

The problem with implementing travel bans hasn’t really been teased out, or given a massive amount of consideration by the looks of it, and it needs to be.

But travel bans condemn 265,000 people in this country who work in tourism industry to long term unemployment. If not all 265k then 150k for sure as we eradicate any supply of tourism by locking up.

What needs to happen is Ireland needs to advertise tourism ASAP based on condition of person undergoing 30 minute covid test upon arrival. if clear - let them in to spend some money. Tourism is as good of industry as any to kickstart economy, looking at social department running out of money by end of next month we dont have much choice.

"Rapid Covid-19 test by Irish group HiberGene gets EU approval
Accurate, low-cost test can deliver results for patients with coronavirus within 30 minutes"

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/rapid-covid-19-test-by-irish-group-hibergene-gets-eu-approval-1.4257587?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fhealth-pharma%2Frapid-covid-19-test-by-irish-group-hibergene-gets-eu-approval-1.4257587

lawrencesummers

KrustyUCC wrote: »

All the more reason to give early guideance so people know what they can or can't do

That’s the problem, they can’t give guidance when specifics are required.

lawrencesummers

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

But travel bans condemn 265,000 people in this country who work in tourism industry to long term unemployment. If not all 265k then 150k for sure as we eradicate any supply of tourism by locking up.

What needs to happen is Ireland needs to advertise tourism ASAP based on condition of person undergoing 30 minute covid test upon arrival. if clear - let them in to spend some money. Tourism is as good of industry as any to kickstart economy, looking at social department running out of money by end of next month we dont have much choice.

"Rapid Covid-19 test by Irish group HiberGene gets EU approval
Accurate, low-cost test can deliver results for patients with coronavirus within 30 minutes"

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/rapid-covid-19-test-by-irish-group-hibergene-gets-eu-approval-1.4257587?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fhealth-pharma%2Frapid-covid-19-test-by-irish-group-hibergene-gets-eu-approval-1.4257587

A second wave and second lockdown condemns everyone to the same outcome. Tests are limited in effectiveness and allowing infected people board planes to here is where the disease should be stopped.

As some countries have not got any handle on their spread they shouldn’t be allowed to travel. A ban on those countries will give confidence to the people from safe countries to travel here allowing tourism to Return to some degree.

KrustyUCC

lawrencesummers wrote: »

That’s the problem, they can’t give guidance when specifics are required.

You won't get specifics unless they know the guidelines either

Vicious circle

RugbyLad11

SusieBlue wrote: »

We’re turning into a nation of curtain twitchers, what a complete waste of Garda resources :rolleyes:

How dare the commoners enter howth

RugbyLad11

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Changes in restrictions in Northern Ireland mean that groups of up to 6 people can go hiking in the mountains from today. They dont have the idiotic 5km restriction up there or in the UK! I hike with a Northern Ireland club but even when restrictions HERE ease up to 20km on 8th June I STILL wont be able to get out hiking with any of them.
What I am missing most now is human company. I live alone and have been alone since the beginning of this. To say lately my mental health is suffering is an understatement.


I visited my sister in Kildare on Sunday for a few hours , I was out at a garden centre yesterday, I walk and cycle everyday but despite the slight easing of restrictions I feel worse as this is going on. This 5km rule is a completely over the top and hugely repressive restriction at this stage!

Has anyone actually challenged the 5km limit in court? Surely a good lawyer could get it removed. It must surely be breaking EU movement laws

Ginger n Lemon

lawrencesummers wrote: »

A second wave and second lockdown condemns everyone to the same outcome. Tests are limited in effectiveness and allowing infected people board planes to here is where the disease should be stopped.

As some countries have not got any handle on their spread they shouldn’t be allowed to travel. A ban on those countries will give confidence to the people from safe countries to travel here allowing tourism to Return to some degree.

30 minute tests are 97.8% accurate, as good accuracy as laboratories.

In any case, we wont have much choice what we do and who do we travel ban and who we dont. End of June social payments run out, unless we borrow to survive we ll upset over 1m people who are on the dole currently.

seamus

KrustyUCC wrote: »

IKEA and homeware stores was a major panic from the government

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it wasn't well-founded.

Phases 1, 2 & 3 of the roadmap are still part of the emergency phase of this crisis.

Proving that we can begin to reopen while keeping a tight reign on numbers. This is why all 3 phases continue to state that "unnecessary" travel must be avoided.

The goal is that by the time we have gotten to phase 4, most of the economy has been reopened, the novelty of shops being opened has worn off and people are going about their normal lives while following social distancing rules. Phase 4 is the official end of "lockdown", unlimited travel will be permitted, the main restrictions will be on the size of gatherings.

The discussion about IKEA all last week indicated that there was an expectation of a rush on IKEA (and other homeware shops) this week.

So pushing it back by 3 (or 6) weeks seems prudent. Allow more important services to become available first. Give retailers and the Gardai the chance to put more robust preparations in place for business where high volumes of traffic may be expected.

Allinall

RugbyLad11 wrote: »

Has anyone actually challenged the 5km limit in court? Surely a good lawyer could get it removed. It must surely be breaking EU movement laws

Gemma O'Doherty and John Waters tried, and were told to fark off.

seamus

RugbyLad11 wrote: »

Has anyone actually challenged the 5km limit in court? Surely a good lawyer could get it removed. It must surely be breaking EU movement laws

Someone here you could talk to:
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0513/1138081-gemma-odoherty-john-waters-covid19-coronavirus/

RugbyLad11

Allinall wrote: »

Gemma O'Doherty and John Waters tried, and were told to fark off.

I mean a good lawyer..Gemma O'Doherty and John Waters represented themselves

RugbyLad11

seamus wrote: »

Someone here you could talk to:
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0513/1138081-gemma-odoherty-john-waters-covid19-coronavirus/

Read my post again...I said a good lawer so that excludes Gemma O'Doherty and John Waters

seamus

RugbyLad11 wrote: »

Read my post again...I said a good lawer so that excludes Gemma O'Doherty and John Waters

If any semi-competent legal professional saw that the 5km limit could easily be defeated in court, they'd have done it by now.

Our constitution and the treaties underpinning the EU contain clauses that allow for many powers to be shelved during an emergency.

It's a risky game, but it's a necessary one. Emergency powers are the door through which most despots take control. But at the same time we recognise that if you do not allow for a government to take extraordinary measures in exraordinary times, then you will be paralyzed when the first war or epidemic hits. And the country will probably collapse anyway because someone will take over and do what is necessary whether it's legal or not.

So better to give governments the power to make emergency arrangements, and put in safeguards to try and ensure that those arrangements are removed again when the emergency has passed.

lawrencesummers

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

30 minute tests are 97.8% accurate, as good accuracy as laboratories.

In any case, we wont have much choice what we do and who do we travel ban and who we dont. End of June social payments run out, unless we borrow to survive we ll upset over 1m people who are on the dole currently.

Link?

Are they accurate for people who have been infected recently.

is_that_so

RugbyLad11 wrote: »

Read my post again...I said a good lawyer so that excludes Gemma O'Doherty and John Waters

They'd need to be able to overturn provisions in the Health Act of 1947, never mind having a good swing at the Constitution. That strikes me as far too great an effort to undo a temporary measure.

KrustyUCC

seamus wrote: »

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it wasn't well-founded.

Phases 1, 2 & 3 of the roadmap are still part of the emergency phase of this crisis.

Proving that we can begin to reopen while keeping a tight reign on numbers. This is why all 3 phases continue to state that "unnecessary" travel must be avoided.

The goal is that by the time we have gotten to phase 4, most of the economy has been reopened, the novelty of shops being opened has worn off and people are going about their normal lives while following social distancing rules. Phase 4 is the official end of "lockdown", unlimited travel will be permitted, the main restrictions will be on the size of gatherings.

The discussion about IKEA all last week indicated that there was an expectation of a rush on IKEA (and other homeware shops) this week.

So pushing it back by 3 (or 6) weeks seems prudent. Allow more important services to become available first. Give retailers and the Gardai the chance to put more robust preparations in place for business where high volumes of traffic may be expected.

It would have been no more of a rush than at Woodies etc

Big queues but people are getting used to queuing even in the rain

Now they've only pushed back the rush and pent up further demand

Not a good sign at the first sign of potential trouble they panicked and changed the plan

It doesn't bode well for bringing forward dates unless the multi millionaire horse industry

facehugger99

Allinall wrote: »

You mustn't have listened to the ads.

They're not "desperately trying to reduce the burden". If they were, they would have let an awful more people go back to work.

They have lots more money to keep up the payments.

Phew!

And here I was thinking we're headed for a €30bn deficit this year.

lawrencesummers

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

30 minute tests are 97.8% accurate, as good accuracy as laboratories.

In any case, we wont have much choice what we do and who do we travel ban and who we dont. End of June social payments run out, unless we borrow to survive we ll upset over 1m people who are on the dole currently.

You see what your missing with the 97% accuracy statement is the inaccuracy of presymptomatic people.

Testing on landing means people have Potentially travelled with Infected people, been infected themselves and will pass tests on landing.

To reduce that risk airlines have to implement restrictions, mandatory mask wearing, sanitising etc.

But we also need to stop travel from countries that have no handle on the spread, which typically are countries that don’t contribute greatly anyway to our tourism, this will rescue greatly the risk of another wave and allow tourism from countries that have a handle on the problem.

uli84

Copied from School reopening thread. That’s what should be happening here..

“ A glimpse of how the debate is moving in other countries...four pediatric doctors' associations in Germany have written a joint statement demanding primary schools and creches open fully ASAP noting a low risk of infection among under 10s:

https://www.spiegel.de...59-818e-7a263732f811 (in German)”

Allinall

facehugger99 wrote: »

Phew!

And here I was thinking we're headed for a €30bn deficit this year.

We are.

That's where the lots of money is coming from. :rolleyes:

MrDavid1976

seamus wrote: »

If any semi-competent legal professional saw that the 5km limit could easily be defeated in court, they'd have done it by now.

Our constitution and the treaties underpinning the EU contain clauses that allow for many powers to be shelved during an emergency.

It's a risky game, but it's a necessary one. Emergency powers are the door through which most despots take control. But at the same time we recognise that if you do not allow for a government to take extraordinary measures in exraordinary times, then you will be paralyzed when the first war or epidemic hits. And the country will probably collapse anyway because someone will take over and do what is necessary whether it's legal or not.

So better to give governments the power to make emergency arrangements, and put in safeguards to try and ensure that those arrangements are removed again when the emergency has passed.

There are two aspects.

1. The domestic arrangements - the emergency powers still have to be justifiable. I would think that a good lawyer would be able to challenge this if the risk is receding. However, I think the plan by the Govt to ease over time will probably safeguard against any challenge. Getting a conviction though would be a different matter hence the DPP warning to the guards.

2. EU Single Market and freedom of movement - the Commission is being sensible now as many Member States are already in contravention, but if Ireland was out of step with other MS come July we would be challenged.

facehugger99

Allinall wrote: »

We are.

That's where the lots of money is coming from. :rolleyes:

With logic like that, I hope you're not in charge of the household budget.

Captain_Crash

seamus wrote: »

Our constitution and the treaties underpinning the EU contain clauses that allow for many powers to be shelved during an emergency.

While this is true, our Supreme Court ruled in 2011 that an Emergency is defined as War.



I don't want to bring the thread off point and there are a number of threads on the forum regarding the constitutionality of the restrictions, but the general consensus seems to be that while there are legitimate questions to be asked, the restrictions are likely to be constitutional.



I do agree with the original poster tho, a good counsel would almost certainly be granted leave to appeal to the Supreme Court considering the public importance of such restrictions.



Why haven't they? well no one has brought it there yet that's why (apart from the obvs two, who were dumb enough to represent themselves in the High Court)

boring accountant

Allinall wrote: »

You mustn't have listened to the ads.

They're not "desperately trying to reduce the burden". If they were, they would have let an awful more people go back to work.

They have lots more money to keep up the payments.

However, they are sending out a message to anyone who thinks they can scam the system by continuing to claim after going back to work, that there will be consequences.

Far from idiotic, but prudent.

No they don’t. They are going to be having another bond sale soon as they will run out of money in early June. If the bond sale doesn’t go as planned the next stop will be the IMF.

Ginger n Lemon

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You see what your missing with the 97% accuracy statement is the inaccuracy of presymptomatic people.

Testing on landing means people have Potentially travelled with Infected people, been infected themselves and will pass tests on landing.

To reduce that risk airlines have to implement restrictions, mandatory mask wearing, sanitising etc.

But we also need to stop travel from countries that have no handle on the spread, which typically are countries that don’t contribute greatly anyway to our tourism, this will rescue greatly the risk of another wave and allow tourism from countries that have a handle on the problem.

I dont have figures off top of my head but Id say US tourists contribute greatly. And most states in US dont care about covid.

We are running into problems very early in our assessment :S

And most airlines have already made masks mandatory and do temperature checks prior to departure, if you have over 38 degrees temperature you are sent home.

lawrencesummers

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I dont have figures off top of my head but Id say US tourists contribute greatly. And most states in US dont care about covid.

We are running into problems very early in our assessment :S

And most airlines have already made masks mandatory and do temperature checks prior to departure, if you have over 38 degrees temperature you are sent home.

They do Contribute greatly in a regular season, so work out how much their tourism contribution is worth for the remaining part of this year (which is mostly wiped out) and weight that up against the cost of another wave and another lockdown because they have not got the disease under control.

I think you will find out pretty quickly that banning travel from the US is a lesser cost.

If we get to a safe level here, and we are getting there then we can open tourism to some countries, and a ban on travel from out of control countries will give confidence to travel.

Would you travel to somewhere that US or Brazilian people are flocking to? I doubt it.

LiquidZeb

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I dont have figures off top of my head but Id say US tourists contribute greatly. And most states in US dont care about covid.

We are running into problems very early in our assessment :S

And most airlines have already made masks mandatory and do temperature checks prior to departure, if you have over 38 degrees temperature you are sent home.

Visitors from the US and Canada made up 2.1 of our 9.9 million visitors in 2017 so they're a big chunk of our market to piss off.

Ginger n Lemon

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Visitors from the US and Canada made up 2.1 of our 9.9 million visitors in 2017 so they're a big chunk of our market to piss off.

And they tend to be quite wealthy as well no offence to other nations.

stephenjmcd

Allinall wrote: »

We are.

That's where the lots of money is coming from. :rolleyes:

You do understand there isn't a good thing ?? If credit lines dry up due to every other country looking to the same institutions that leaves us up the creek.

Dept of social protection 8 billion budget gone by June.

We don't have "lots of money" if that's your understand of finance and economics

LiquidZeb

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

And they tend to be quite wealthy as well no offence to other nations.

Yeah really any American making a transatlantic trip has cash to burn over here. We'd seriously risk damaging Irish American relations with this they'd not forget it if we barred them.