Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Penfailed

NDWC wrote: »

46 new cases and there's still a question as to whether we'll move to phase 2?

Jesus wept

Is there? Usually the people most vocal on here about the pace of the phasing are the same people who reckon the phasing won't happen at that pace.

the kelt

Penfailed wrote: »

Is there? Usually the people most vocal on here about the pace of the phasing are the same people who reckon the phasing won't happen at that pace.

Isn’t there?

Have we met the numbers and criteria to move to phase 2?

Roger_007

I wonder how many members of the NPHET group have, or will have, to suffer personally the economic consequences of lockdown and the inevitable recession it will cause. Will any of them lose their lose their jobs or suffer any loss of income?
It’s easy for them to recommend the maintaining of restrictions for the longest possible time when none of them will be adversely affected, even if the economy of the country is in ruins.

Birdie Num Num

Jayesdiem wrote: »

Your post lives up to your username. You are completely misrepresenting (or just misunderstanding) the message people are sending on here. There’s nobody claiming to be experts here or calling into question the medical credentials of the people on that list. Not one person is saying “I know more than that lot”. What they ARE saying is this: “given that our European neighbours have access to similarly wise medical experts, and given that we have suppressed the virus to a good extent, why have our European neighbours responded by lifting the imposed restrictions and we have not”? You see nobody is claiming to have factual knowledge, they are merely making a valid comparison with similar countries to ourselves and coming to the very logical conclusion that Ireland’s recovery is being severely impeded for no discernible reason. Nuance is in short supply for you.

Not sure how much you have followed this thread but even if you haven’t, you don’t have to look too closely or too far back to see it is full of ‘expert’ opinions. Plenty of medical opinions on a virus that no one heard of less than a year ago and the subsequent actions taken.

JRant

titan18 wrote: »

Do you actually think we should elect health officials? We've people in our country who elect Healy Rae's, Lowry etc and you want those same people to elect health officials?

As for nursing homes, they'd be villified if they said it publicly but it's clear to me that we had a lack of PPE equipment, we had a lack of staff and those finite resources we had were diverted to hospitals as there's a better chance of survival for those patients. We didn't have enough resources to cater for everyone so hard decisions had to be made.

It's nothing to be with electing health officials and everything to do with our government handing over complete control to them.

On your second point, we should already know why the decision was made. We should have detailed minutes and notes for all decisions made up to today. The decisions made should be on the public record. However, this being Ireland and with FG ministers thinking minutes and notes are an optional extra it doesn't surprise me.

is_that_so

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Not sure how much you have followed this thread but even you haven’t, you don’t have to look too closely or too far back to see it is full of ‘expert’ opinions. Plenty of medical opinions on a virus that no one heard of less than a year ago and the subsequent actions taken.

Yes, we've all been home-schooled by Google, some not very well. Judgement on what transpired is really a long way off. A lot of what has been said is built around personal frustration, understandable given the likely length of this. Whether you want it to stay until summer's end or to wind it up now somebody must be to blame.

JRant

Roger_007 wrote: »

I wonder how many members of the NPHET group have, or will have, to suffer personally the economic consequences of lockdown and the inevitable recession it will cause. Will any of them lose their lose their jobs or suffer any loss of income?
It’s easy for them to recommend the maintaining of restrictions for the longest possible time when none of them will be adversely affected, even if the economy of the country is in ruins.

Looking at the list you can probably answer that question without putting to much thought into it. They all seem to suckling on the governments teat.

is_that_so

titan18 wrote: »

Do you actually think we should elect health officials? We've people in our country who elect Healy Rae's, Lowry etc and you want those same people to elect health officials?

As for nursing homes, they'd be villified if they said it publicly but it's clear to me that we had a lack of PPE equipment, we had a lack of staff and those finite resources we had were diverted to hospitals as there's a better chance of survival for those patients. We didn't have enough resources to cater for everyone so hard decisions had to be made.

PPE is not the only part of infection control. Some of them have proved lacking in basics. I also think they've been quick off the mark to look for someone to blame. Putting the house completely in order so to say must be an end outcome of this.

is_that_so

JRant wrote: »

Looking at the list you can probably answer that question without putting to much thought into it. They all seem to suckling on the governments teat.

So who would you have on it?

the kelt

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Not sure how much you have followed this thread but even you haven’t, you don’t have to look too closely or too far back to see it is full of ‘expert’ opinions. Plenty of medical opinions on a virus that no one heard of less than a year ago and the subsequent actions taken.

Well not really,

Sure you get the odd nut but the majority is based on alternative opinions from experts in the field and the longer and longer it goes on the more and more expert opinion comes out that counteracts much of the main opinion our own experts are working off. Most people are quoting other medical opinions, not their own.

We are learning more and more as we go along, a case in point being the children being super spreaders of the virus for example which seems now isn’t the case, the fact that a loss of taste and smell is now a symptom but was t recognised as one up until this week.

But mostly people are looking at the rest of Europe, all with their own experts in the field and medical people inputting into their decisions and deciding they can open up far far quicker than ourselves for some unknown reason I’ve yet to hear a reason for other than “let’s wait and see how everyone else gets on” which isn’t actually a reason, it’s a pathetic excuse to not make a decision.

Maybe the HSE have better experts than it seems the entire medical experts made up of the rest of Europe?

JRant

is_that_so wrote: »

Yes, we've all been home-schooled by Google, some not very well. Judgement on what transpired is really a long way off. A lot of what has been said in built around personal frustration, understandable given the likely length of this. Whether you want it to stay until summer's end or to wind it up now somebody must be to blame.

I believe a big factor in these discussions is around the mixed messages we are getting and the fact we have no clear targets to work towards other than arbitrary dates set out in the roadmap. Even the roadmap itself was wishy washy on the criteria for moving phases with NPHET holding the cards very close to their chest.
We still have over another week of the 5km restriction for no other reason than "because". We are told NPHET are using all the data available to make the best health decisions, fine, then tell us the medical or scientific reason for limiting travel to such an extent.

I'm not seeing a lot of science informing decisions to date, in fact the bank holiday weekends seem to have been a bigger factor than anything else when it came to making decisions. Tony & Co have been chastising people for months now about being bold boys and girls, particularly around bank holidays and telling us "we are not where would like to be". We'll see the same during today's briefing with Project Fear being ramped up to 11 again.

prunudo

Thing is about that Nphet list, its all doctors and health officials. Now that's not the fault of the members as the boards remit is health based.

But if the country ever finds itself in a similar situation again the group of experts shouldn't be all from one sector. Yes its a health issue but there should be member from other effected sectors to form opinion and advice for the government.

JRant

is_that_so wrote: »

So who would you have on it?

It should include experts in geriatric care / nursing homes, residential home representative, teaching experts (Primary, secondary, and Third level). It needs to be a multidisciplinary panel as we have virologist making decisions and closing schools / businesses without the first clue as to how open them back up again.

growleaves

Washington officials admit to counting gunshot victims as COVID-19 deaths

Washington epidemiologists have admitted that multiple victims of gunshot wounds who had also been diagnosed with coronavirus have been counted as COVID-19 deaths, although they say deaths from the virus are still likely being undercounted in the state.

road_high

Just heard Donohoe on Newstalk. He doesn’t inspire any confidence. Just bleeting the same message as the rest

growleaves

The latest CDC weekly report for deaths by flu, pneumonia and Covid shows that the total number of deaths from all causes in 2020 so far is slightly less (by one percent) than the total number of deaths up to this point, on average, in the years 2017-2019.

is_that_so

JRant wrote: »

I believe a big factor in these discussions is around the mixed messages we are getting and the fact we have no clear targets to work towards other than arbitrary dates set out in the roadmap. Even the roadmap itself was wishy washy on the criteria for moving phases with NPHET holding the cards very close to their chest.
We still have over another week of the 5km restriction for no other reason than "because". We are told NPHET are using all the data available to make the best health decisions, fine, then tell us the medical or scientific reason for limiting travel to such an extent.

I'm not seeing a lot of science informing decisions to date, in fact the bank holiday weekends seem to have been a bigger factor than anything else when it came to making decisions. Tony & Co have been chastising people for months now about being bold boys and girls, particularly around bank holidays and telling us "we are not where would like to be". We'll see the same during today's briefing with Project Fear being ramped up to 11 again.

I'd expect the CMO & NPHET to keep their cards close to their chests at all times. There are a lot of loose tongues around, even in those who do have expertise.
I have come to accept the extreme caution with which they are approaching this and even the arbitrary 5km makes sense. Most people will respect the limits so they can be more confident that any disease out there may not be travelling around the country. I don't even mind the admonitions, as a people we can be flexible with rules and we do like to "grab a mile" so a bit of finger wagging is often enough.

I think the decisions are science -based but very narrowly focused - on the hand washing, the distancing and limiting locations where it could spread. Sure there's a nervousness or a fear of further outbreaks but I think the point made on that is how difficult it would be to reverse tack.

In general I'm fine with the plan. At the time it was prudent and sensible. I see no reason why we can't go all the way through Phase 1 and probably most of the way through Phase 2. However, at that stage it needs to show that it does have inbuilt flexibility. I think it will remain the plan on paper but with very little in Phase 5 and not that much in Phase 4 IMO will happen as they have been planned.

With the current downward trend the CMO & NPHET will have a much harder time convincing people about ongoing measures.

is_that_so

JRant wrote: »

It should include experts in geriatric care / nursing homes, residential home representative, teaching experts (Primary, secondary, and Third level). It needs to be a multidisciplinary panel as we have virologist making decisions and closing schools / businesses without the first clue as to how open them back up again.

Pretty sure it has most of those anyway if you look at the list. I'd disagree on residential home reps, far too likely to be a vested interest.

Naked Lepper

is playing football (amateur) coming back on 20th july for sure?
dont see why astro pitches not open sooner if all the leagues are restarting now

amadangomor

growleaves wrote: »

The latest CDC weekly report for deaths by flu, pneumonia and Covid shows that the total number of deaths from all causes in 2020 so far is slightly less (by one percent) than the total number of deaths up to this point, on average, in the years 2017-2019.

That document states that the total excess deaths in the US in 2020 ranges from 84,891 to 113,139.

Great for the memory of these people that died that you are downplaying their deaths to serve your own agenda.

is_that_so

prunudo wrote: »

Thing is about that Nphet list, its all doctors and health officials. Now that's not the fault of the members as the boards remit is health based.

But if the country ever finds itself in a similar situation again the group of experts shouldn't be all from one sector. Yes its a health issue but there should be member from other effected sectors to form opinion and advice for the government.

That's the idea of a NPHET. It's not a permanent fixture and the MoH forms and dissolves them as required.

Jackman25

amadangomor wrote: »

That document states that the total excess deaths in the US in 2020 ranges from 84,891 to 113,139.

Great for the memory of these people that died that you are downplaying their deaths to serve your own agenda.

Oh FFS.

growleaves

That document states that the total excess deaths in the US in 2020 ranges from 84,891 to 113,139.

Yes because as has been stated a million times medical statistics are always inexact estimates.

Great for the memory of these people that died that you are downplaying their deaths to serve your own agenda.

Countless posters have been posting mortality statistics for the last ten weeks. We have a right to know how many people are dying if the counter-measures affect all of us. I'm not disrespecting the dead by posting links to scientific reports of statistical averages.

You're trying every tack now. Maybe you should stick to arguing that medical scientists have a right to rule, that seems like a good one.

Benimar

Naked Lepper wrote: »

is playing football (amateur) coming back on 20th july for sure?
dont see why astro pitches not open sooner if all the leagues are restarting now

The facilities can reopen from July 20th (assuming no spike in numbers).

What leagues are restarting now? Certainly no amateur ones.

Ginger n Lemon

Breakthrough! Front page of Irish times

"Given the scale of economic carnage and human misery coming over the hill, every arm of the State should be on a war footing to save small businesses. Instead, those in tourism and retail are left exposed on the front line as cannon fodder, as Ireland pursues an economically-reckless scientific experiment to throttle a virus that other European countries are learning to keep at bay."

Although he was slapped down, Michael O’Leary of Ryanair was correct this week to point out some inconsistency. It is a conscious decision to sacrifice the travel and hospitality industries. It could be justified for travel from complacent countries like the US. But why impose this on sensible Europe?

When the Republic was luxuriating in exaggerated self-praise in March for being an early mover on restrictions, people were not told they would be the last in Europe to ease up. It feels akin to a deception. It will also sacrifice retailers."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/small-businesses-are-cannon-fodder-in-zealous-anti-virus-experiment-1.4264850

Definitely can expect accelerating of lifting of restrictions. I d say announcement on 5th of June or even earlier.

is_that_so

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Breakthrough! Front page of Irish times

"Given the scale of economic carnage and human misery coming over the hill, every arm of the State should be on a war footing to save small businesses. Instead, those in tourism and retail are left exposed on the front line as cannon fodder, as Ireland pursues an economically-reckless scientific experiment to throttle a virus that other European countries are learning to keep at bay."

Although he was slapped down, Michael O’Leary of Ryanair was correct this week to point out some inconsistency. It is a conscious decision to sacrifice the travel and hospitality industries. It could be justified for travel from complacent countries like the US. But why impose this on sensible Europe?

When the Republic was luxuriating in exaggerated self-praise in March for being an early mover on restrictions, people were not told they would be the last in Europe to ease up. It feels akin to a deception. It will also sacrifice retailers."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/small-businesses-are-cannon-fodder-in-zealous-anti-virus-experiment-1.4264850

Definitely can expect accelerating of lifting of restrictions. I d say announcement on 5th of June or even earlier.

That chap has been ranting loudly on that topic for quite some time. The language in it has been smashed out on a keyboard. An article should be crafted to persuade, not used a mallet to force submission to a point of view.

JRant

is_that_so wrote: »

I'd expect the CMO & NPHET to keep their cards close to their chests at all times. There are a lot of loose tongues around, even in those who do have expertise.
I have come to accept the extreme caution with which they are approaching this and even the arbitrary 5km makes sense. Most people will respect the limits so they can be more confident that any disease out there may not be travelling around the country. I don't even mind the admonitions, as a people we can be flexible with rules and we do like to "grab a mile" so a bit of finger wagging is often enough.

I think the decisions are science -based but very narrowly focused - on the hand washing, the distancing and limiting locations where it could spread. Sure there's a nervousness or a fear of further outbreaks but I think the point made on that is how difficult it would be to reverse tack.

In general I'm fine with the plan. At the time it was prudent and sensible. I see no reason why we can't go all the way through Phase 1 and probably most of the way through Phase 2. However, at that stage it needs to show that it does have inbuilt flexibility. I think it will remain the plan on paper but with very little in Phase 5 and not that much in Phase 4 IMO will happen as they have been planned.

With the current downward trend the CMO & NPHET will have a much harder time convincing people about ongoing measures.

I'd completely disagree on keeping their cards close to their chests. They are asking people to ruin their own businesses, stunt children's education and a whole raft of other measures so the very least we should expect us complete transparency from them.

Ginger n Lemon

JRant wrote: »

I'd completely disagree on keeping their cards close to their chests. They are asking people to ruin their own businesses, stunt children's education and a whole raft of other measures so the very least we should expect us complete transparency from them.

I dont know if this has changed but first couple of RTE episodes reporting deaths, CMO always said "with underlying conditions".

Never actually said x died with cancer, x died with heart disease etc.

Because they always knew, the minute they start saying people with cancer are dying "off covid" they would lose average Joe on the street in terms of fear mongering. Especially when you consider that people with multiple underlying conditions have died also.

But i havent watched Tony ramble for sometime now so dont know if he became more honest there.

growleaves

is_that_so wrote: »

That chap has been ranting loudly on that topic for quite some time. The language in it has been smashed out on a keyboard. An article should be crafted to persuade, not used a mallet to force submission to a point of view.

Lol the founder of this site accused people who didn't want to go along with the highly questionable lockdown policy of being murderers. Ironic that you should post your objection here on boards. Yeah the use of words like "iron-clad", "draconian" and "over-caution" are beating us over the head with rhetorical force.

is_that_so

JRant wrote: »

I'd completely disagree on keeping their cards close to their chests. They are asking people to ruin their own businesses, stunt children's education and a whole raft of other measures so the very least we should expect us complete transparency from them.

Transparency is generally a good thing but our press have been woeful on this and the usual unnamed leak or off the record briefing pieces is the last thing you need in this situation. Business issues are subject to a lot of other variables, not least viability and how they are run and just how much stunting can 3 months do to a child's education? The chance of them being back in school was always a long shot.