Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

is_that_so

growleaves wrote: »

Lol the founder of this site accused people who didn't want to go along with the highly questionable lockdown policy of being murderers. Ironic that you should post your objection here on boards. Yeah the use of words like "iron-clad", "draconian" and "over-caution" are beating us over the head with rhetorical force.

Why wouldn't I comment any more than you chose to comment on my commenting? A poster linked to the article, presumably for comment, and it's what we tend to do here. My view on it is that it is bad journalism. FoT, little as I like what he says most of the time, does good journalism

I don't spend lots of time reading up on other countries in detail, but I assume Ireland now has the most restrictive lockdown in Europe? And probably for the last number of weeks as well.

Is any other country stuck to a 5KM travel limit?
Are other countries being forced to go 4 months without seeing family?

Our handling of this has been disgraceful.

Ginger n Lemon

OMG get these lying clowns out of the government NOW

"Meanwhile, it has been revealed a private hospital in Limerick which the Minister for Health said is 30% full in fact has no inpatients whatsoever.

The Bon Secours Limerick, one of the 19 private hospitals taken over by the HSE at the end of March in order to extend the public health system’s capacity in the face of Covid-19, has had no inpatients (overnight stays) since that deal was signed."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/joe-mchugh-schools-may-not-return-in-september-1002345.html

Bottom of the article.

Seriously - this is just getting beyond farcical now. EMPTY F*ING HOSPITALS

I wont focus on main headline ofcourse, parents could get quite upset.

growleaves

Why wouldn't I comment any more than you chose to comment on my commenting?

I'm not saying your commenting here is illogical, I'm saying its ironic in light of the point you're making.

We're awash here in extreme rhetoric where people are being accused of murder, euthanasia, disrespecting the dead, being Nazis etc. for having the wrong policy opinion. Spreaders have been called "vermin".

All potentially harmful to support for the restrictions, if extreme rhetoric un-persuades.

facehugger99

amadangomor wrote: »

This thread is an eye opener. Truest words spoken were the ones about opinions and arseholes.

We really are priviligaged to have the opinions of so may wise people here who have so much more of an insight into a deadly virus than the list of members of NPHET.

Dr Tony Holohan, chief medical officer at the Department of Health.

Prof Colm Bergin, infectious diseases consultant at St James’s Hospital and Professor of Medicine at Trinity College Dublin.

Paul Bolger, director of Department of Health resources division.

Dr Eibhlin Connolly, deputy chief medical officer at the Department of Health.

Tracey Conroy, assistant secretary in the acute hospitals division of the Department of Health.

Dr John Cuddihy, interim director of the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC).

Dr Cillian de Gascun, director of the National Virus Reference Laboratory in UCD.

Colm Desmond, assistant secretary for corporate legislation, mental health, drugs policy and food safety division in the Department of Health.


Dr Lorraine Doherty, national clinical director for health protection in the HPSC.

Dr Mary Favier, president of the Irish College of General Practitioners.


Dr Ronan Glynn, deputy chief medical officer in the Department of Health.

Fergal Goodman, assistant secretary in the primary care division in the Department of Health.

Dr Colm Henry, HSE chief clinical officer.

Dr Kevin Kelleher, HSE assistant national director of public health.

Marita Kinsella, director of the national patient safety office in the Department of Health.

David Leach, HSE deputy national director of communications.

Dr Kathleen Mac Lellan, assistant secretary in Department of Health social care division.

Dr Jeanette McCallion, Health Products Regulatory Authority (HPRA) medical assessor.

Tom McGuinness, assistant national director at HSE office of emergency planning.

Dr Siobhán Ní Bhrian, HSE lead for integrated care.

Prof Philip Nolan, chair of Irish Epidemiological Modelling Advisory Group and president of Maynooth University.

Kate O’Flaherty, head of health and wellbeing at Department of Health.

Dr Darina O’Flanagan, special adviser to NPHET at Department of Health.

Dr Siobhán O’Sullivan, chief bioethics officer at Department of Health.

Dr Michael Power, national clinical lead of HSE critical care programme and consultant in intensive care medicine at Beaumont Hospital.

Phelim Quinn, chief executive of Health Information and Quality Authority (Hiqa).

Dr Máirín Ryan, deputy chief executive and director of health technology assessment at Hiqa.

Dr Alan Smith, Department of Health deputy chief medical officer.

Dr Breda Smyth, HSE director of health and public health medicine.

David Walsh, HSE national director of community operations.

Deirdre Watters, head of communications at Department of Health.

Liam Woods, HSE national director of acute operations.

Lorraine Doherty, HPSC clinical director for health protection.

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

A load of single-issue bureaucrats clucking away at each other in a echo-chamber.

There's not one of them that have spent a day working in the real-economy in decades. They can concentrate on covering their arses, safe in the knowledge their gold-plated salaries and pensions will protect them from the coming sh;t-storm.

The rest of us will need to pick up the pieces of the absolute mess they've made of the economy.

Micky 32

Penfailed wrote: »

Are you for real? You think people want more death? To what end?

Give over, i guess you can’t tell a tongue in cheek post even though it’s a valid post in my experience.. just like the ‘for real” posts tellling people where they can and can’t travel to and posts telling people to stick to the moronic 5 km rule that you’re so good at despite the facts. Did you put a like on the good news post?

hmmm

facehugger99 wrote: »

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

It's an expert group to advise the government on health implications, your idea that this is somehow a bad thing is ridiculous.

I wouldn't want non-health experts or elected officials on a health advisory group.

ednwireland

facehugger99 wrote: »

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

A load of single-issue bureaucrats clucking away at each other in a echo-chamber.

There's not one of them that have spent a day working in the real-economy in decades. They can concentrate on covering their arses, safe in the knowledge their gold-plated salaries and pensions will protect them from the coming sh;t-storm.

The rest of us will need to pick up the pieces of the absolute mess they've made of the economy.

this is what worries me the most

Idbatterim

Jesus, it's clear now more than ever, just how damaging it is to have the morons that run for the dail, that we do !

iamwhoiam

facehugger99 wrote: »

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

A load of single-issue bureaucrats clucking away at each other in a echo-chamber.

There's not one of them that have spent a day working in the real-economy in decades. They can concentrate on covering their arses, safe in the knowledge their gold-plated salaries and pensions will protect them from the coming sh;t-storm.

The rest of us will need to pick up the pieces of the absolute mess they've made of the economy.

I have posted this before , they are like a group of frightened hens in a hen house .All clucking together making each other afraid of the big bad fox . Group thinking is a real phenomena and quite a dangerous thing at times

Professor Moriarty

hmmm wrote: »

It's an expert group to advise the government on health implications, your idea that this is somehow a bad thing is ridiculous.

I wouldn't want non-health experts or elected officials on a health advisory group.

To Hell with that. Bunch of losers with their rinky dinky PhDs and decades of experience in public health. Clueless and evil bastards the lot of them. Fire them out on their sorry asses and hand the whole thing over to Michael O'Leary. He's a billionaire, he'll know what to do.

KrustyUCC

Leo Varadkar has raised the prospect of halving social distancing rules from two metres to one if the rate of coronavirus infections comes down further.

"Before we can relax that rule and maybe reduce it to 1(metre), which I know a lot of people would like, we just need to see the virus come down a bit more. We're not at that point yet but I think there's a good chance we get there, just not quite yet," Mr Varadkar told FM104.


Hmmm I wonder what number is good enough?

Also Tony Holohan has said its guidance not a rule. So which is it?

More contradictory messages

plodder

facehugger99 wrote: »

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

A load of single-issue bureaucrats clucking away at each other in a echo-chamber.

There's not one of them that have spent a day working in the real-economy in decades. They can concentrate on covering their arses, safe in the knowledge their gold-plated salaries and pensions will protect them from the coming sh;t-storm.

The rest of us will need to pick up the pieces of the absolute mess they've made of the economy.

I wouldn't criticise the individuals concerned, but group-think is likely a real thing if that is the entire body of experts making the decisions. What sticks out there like a sore thumb is not that the medics are doing anything wrong. It's the complete lack of another body looking at the overall picture, and counter balancing the medical advice with all the other concerns. That is a major failure at government level.

batman_oh

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't spend lots of time reading up on other countries in detail, but I assume Ireland now has the most restrictive lockdown in Europe? And probably for the last number of weeks as well.

Is any other country stuck to a 5KM travel limit?
Are other countries being forced to go 4 months without seeing family?

Our handling of this has been disgraceful.

France are the only one left with a restriction as far as I know and it's 100km to be lifter at the start of June. The 5km is an absolute shambles - no logical reason for it yet lots seem to love it.

growleaves

It's the complete lack of another body looking at the overall picture

The assertion that medical-advice shouldn't be the sole criterion by which the country is governed can't really be countered by asking, "Where your PhD in Microbiology then?"

Lord Spence

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Leo Varadkar has raised the prospect of halving social distancing rules from two metres to one if the rate of coronavirus infections comes down further.

"Before we can relax that rule and maybe reduce it to 1(metre), which I know a lot of people would like, we just need to see the virus come down a bit more. We're not at that point yet but I think there's a good chance we get there, just not quite yet," Mr Varadkar told FM104.


Hmmm I wonder what number is good enough?

Also Tony Holohan has said its guidance not a rule. So which is it?

More contradictory messages

If it is indeed just a guidance then we cam all go about our business as normal, If someone wants to keep me at a 2 metre distance then fine tell me (unless were in a public place in which case if your worried about 2m then you should be out in public in the first place), but at this stage people should be allowed to make their own decisions. I mean cigarettes are proven to give cancer but yet its legal, people can decide for themselves it they want to take that risk, so whats different here?

iamwhoiam

batman_oh wrote: »

France are the only one left with a restriction as far as I know and it's 100km to be lifter at the start of June. The 5km is an absolute shambles - no logical reason for it yet lots seem to love it.

Who are the lots ? Most people I know have done everything asked of them and are still complying , and to a man find the 5, 20 and 50kms absolutely ridiculous

iamwhoiam

Lord Spence wrote: »

If it is indeed just a guidance then we cam all go about our business as normal, If someone wants to keep me at a 2 metre distance then fine tell me (unless were in a public place in which case if your worried about 2m then you should be out in public in the first place), but at this stage people should be allowed to make their own decisions. I mean cigarettes are proven to give cancer but yet its legal, people can decide for themselves it they want to take that risk, so whats different here?

I personally will attempt to keep 2m when out in shops or among strangers .In my garden with friends or family I wont be 2 metres away from them and dont intend to be

batman_oh

batman_oh wrote: »

France are the only one left with a restriction as far as I know and it's 100km to be lifter at the start of June. The 5km is an absolute shambles - no logical reason for it yet lots seem to love it.

It stops loads of folk travelling to places that could get very, very busy.
There's merit to it, look what happened before lockdown at Glendalough etc etc ........ place was jammed.

fleet_admiral

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Leo Varadkar has raised the prospect of halving social distancing rules from two metres to one if the rate of coronavirus infections comes down further.

"Before we can relax that rule and maybe reduce it to 1(metre), which I know a lot of people would like, we just need to see the virus come down a bit more. We're not at that point yet but I think there's a good chance we get there, just not quite yet," Mr Varadkar told FM104.


Hmmm I wonder what number is good enough?

Also Tony Holohan has said its guidance not a rule. So which is it?

More contradictory messages

What happened to 'flatten the curve'

Quantum Erasure

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have posted this before , they are like a group of frightened hens in a hen house .All clucking together making each other afraid of the big bad fox . Group thinking is a real phenomena and quite a dangerous thing at times

Who are we talking about here?

Professor Moriarty

plodder wrote: »

I wouldn't criticise the individuals concerned, but group-think is likely a real thing if that is the entire body of experts making the decisions. What sticks out there like a sore thumb is not that the medics are doing anything wrong. It's the complete lack of another body looking at the overall picture, and counter balancing the medical advice with all the other concerns. That is a major failure at government level.

You can be 100% certain that people from departments such as Finance, Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Agriculture, Food and the Marine etc. will have being making strong counterarguments. The idea that only public health voices are listened to is nonsense.

Harpon

20 Lidl and Aldi workers out of 9000 have contracted Covid 19. That’s indoors where the virus spreads easier, with virtually no one in these stores wearing masks and virtually no social distancing going on once people are inside. Incredible stats and yet our government want to carry on with restrictions for months up until just before the 2nd wave will hit us in the winter.

On top of that the figures coming out of other countries in Europe show they have been able to reopen their economies with no spike in cases.

The country should reopen with immediate effect with people wearing face masks in places where social distancing can’t occur, and being required to sanitise hands before entering shops/cafes etc. For those who don’t want to take any risk, they can continue to only venture outside for exercise and food. Otherwise the rest of us should just go out and start living our life’s again.

I hereby order All BUSINESSES to reopen immediately. Good lads.

batman_oh

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Who are the lots ? Most people I know have done everything asked of them and are still complying , and to a man find the 5, 20 and 50kms absolutely ridiculous

There's plenty of people that are very quick to label people that suggest it's silly as selfish/old people killers etc. rather than actually think about that particular restriction themselves and realise that it's pretty ridiculous to have it still going now.

Hurrache

I expected to see evidence. Disappointing thread title.

batman_oh

Augeo wrote: »

It stops loads of folk travelling to places that could get very, very busy.
There's merit to it, look what happened before lockdown at Glendalough etc etc ........ place was jammed.

It also trapped lots of people in high density areas into a small space so they were stuck surrounded by hundreds of people on their daily walk (the only thing they could originally do). I passed more people on small foothpaths every time I went out than I would have in Glendalough at any point.
Whatever about when it was brought in - it is nonsense at this point

Harpon

Hurrache wrote: »

I expected to see evidence. Disappointing thread title.

Aldi and Lidl reporting those figures is the evidence. The stats from other eu countries is the evidence.

Quantum Erasure

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Leo Varadkar has raised the prospect of halving social distancing rules from two metres to one if the rate of coronavirus infections comes down further.

"Before we can relax that rule and maybe reduce it to 1(metre), which I know a lot of people would like, we just need to see the virus come down a bit more. We're not at that point yet but I think there's a good chance we get there, just not quite yet," Mr Varadkar told FM104.


Hmmm I wonder what number is good enough?

Also Tony Holohan has said its guidance not a rule. So which is it?

More contradictory messages

It's guidance from Tony, he advises. the rules come from Leo

plodder

growleaves wrote: »

The assertion that medical-advice shouldn't be the sole criterion by which the country is governed can't really be countered by asking, "Where your PhD in Microbiology then?"

As TH admitted, he doesn't know the ins and outs of hair-dressing and whether it should be allowed to re-open earlier than other sectors. I'd have expected another committee of TH and one or two others from NPHET, plus economists, and other non health civil servants to look at submissions from sectors like that and determine whether they can re-open early and also to advise government on the big questions too. If this does end in economic depression then NPHET will just say - we only offered medical advice, we never offered economic or other advice that we weren't qualified to give.

Hurrache

Hurrache wrote: »

I expected to see evidence. Disappointing thread title.

You won't see evidence form the "lockdown forever, but let's put untested patients from our hospitals in with our most vulnerable, and keep the nursing homes open" experts either.