Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

radia

The evidence we have is that when all businesses were open and no restrictions were in place, cases of COVID-19 rose exponentially from a handful to hundreds over a very short timeframe.

The evidence we have is that when restrictions were put in place to limit the number of people out and about having interactions, and the number of people with whom they interacted, and the distance at which they had those interactions, then the rate of infection was greatly reduced.

The evidence we have is that under those circumstances with all those supporting restrictions in place, meaning that the Lidl and Aldi workers met fewer people who in turn had met fewer people, at a safe distance, the infection rate was manageable.

That's very, very different from saying everything will be grand if we just open everything up and have everyone mingling as before.

I think you need to rethink your 'evidence'.

Westernyelp

Harpon wrote:

Are you saying eu countries are lying about the number of infections? If so where is your evidence of that?

Harpon wrote:

Are you saying Lidl and Aldi are lying about the number of staff infected? If so where is your evidence of that?

I have no idea if the countries are living or not. There is no evidence or complete studies either way on how these numbers stack up at the moment.
If you are putting forward a a position it is up to you to supply evidence and sources not me. That's how it works.

Ditto for the supermarket numbers

Stark

fleet_admiral wrote:

He's sick of doing homework and it's a job to get him out of the house.

Does he have "#stayathomesavelives" plastered everywhere

paw patrol

fleet_admiral wrote: »

Anybody else's children starting to really act up? My son has been handling this madness fine up to this week. He's sick of doing homework and it's a job to get him out of the house. He was fine up to the last few days.

I had that earlier but i've been letting mine out with their friends the last few weeks.
school work is terrible (no change) but they much better now they are out and about.
Prob cut screen time by 75% being out in the sun.

suicide_circus

how many people under 65 with no co morbidities have died in ireland?

Birdie Num Num

the kelt wrote: »

Well not really,

Sure you get the odd nut but the majority is based on alternative opinions from experts in the field and the longer and longer it goes on the more and more expert opinion comes out that counteracts much of the main opinion our own experts are working off. Most people are quoting other medical opinions, not their own.

We are learning more and more as we go along, a case in point being the children being super spreaders of the virus for example which seems now isn’t the case, the fact that a loss of taste and smell is now a symptom but was t recognised as one up until this week.

But mostly people are looking at the rest of Europe, all with their own experts in the field and medical people inputting into their decisions and deciding they can open up far far quicker than ourselves for some unknown reason I’ve yet to hear a reason for other than “let’s wait and see how everyone else gets on” which isn’t actually a reason, it’s a pathetic excuse to not make a decision.

Maybe the HSE have better experts than it seems the entire medical experts made up of the rest of Europe?

Or maybe we should forget about the HSE and the dept of health and suggest they consult this thread.

Case in point indeed. The loss of taste and smell was recognised as a possible symptom a couple of months ago. Loss of taste and smell is not unusual with a common cold too. So why are Health Authorities only adding it as a symptom now? Shouldn’t the fools have done it weeks ago?

growleaves

Alistair Haimes: The virus that turned up late

Covid-19 is no more than a nasty, but basically normal, viral respiratory infection, though you’ll be regarded rather as a mullah regards a blasphemer if you say so. Why is this?

After all: it is precisely because its symptoms seemed so similar to viral pneumonia that the initial outbreak in Wuhan was missed until the numbers built, and it is now clear that we have been missing Covid-19 cases diagnosed as pneumonia in Europe at least as far back as December, probably earlier. In the vernacular: it looks as though it was bubbling away for ages before we noticed.

But if this is really the killer that has forced the biggest suspension of civil liberties since Oliver Cromwell’s Protectorate, what is so unusual about it? Where are the Emperor’s clothes?

Thing is: how many of us do remember the winters of 1998-99 and 1999-2000 as being particularly bad flu seasons? I confess: I don’t, but there’s no ‘just’ flu about it: Covid-19 is a serious killer, and so is influenza. One viral disease we seem to have in perspective; the other not so much.

There are really only two particularly unusual things about the Covid-19 epidemic: the timing of its arrival and the lockdown some countries declared. And if we ask “Covid, where is thy sting?”, it is lockdown that will sting: in the UK, the death-toll of people not turning up to hospital with cardiac issues (admissions are down 50% across the country) is now unmissable in the weekly non-Covid excess death figures published by the ONS, now running over 3,000 per week just for England and Wales. The downstream toll from missed cancer diagnoses (referrals are down 67%, as stressed by Professor Sikora) is heartbreak yet to come.

LeeroyJ.

What ever happened to the tracing app that was supposed to be out by the end of may.

stephenjmcd

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

What ever happened to the tracing app that was supposed to be out by the end of may.

End of June now apparently, just keeps getting pushed back

growleaves

The 2006 Origins of the Lockdown Idea

The primary author of this paper was Robert J. Glass, a complex-systems analyst with Sandia National Laboratories. He had no medical training, much less an expertise in immunology or epidemiology.

That explains why Dr. D.A. Henderson, “who had been the leader of the international effort to eradicate smallpox,” completely rejected the whole scheme.

Says the NYT:

Dr. Henderson was convinced that it made no sense to force schools to close or public gatherings to stop. Teenagers would escape their homes to hang out at the mall. School lunch programs would close, and impoverished children would not have enough to eat. Hospital staffs would have a hard time going to work if their children were at home.

The measures embraced by Drs. Mecher and Hatchett would “result in significant disruption of the social functioning of communities and result in possibly serious economic problems,” Dr. Henderson wrote in his own academic paper responding to their ideas.

The answer, he insisted, was to tough it out: Let the pandemic spread, treat people who get sick and work quickly to develop a vaccine to prevent it from coming back.

There are no historical observations or scientific studies that support the confinement by quarantine of groups of possibly infected people for extended periods in order to slow the spread of influenza. … It is difficult to identify circumstances in the past half-century when large-scale quarantine has been effectively used in the control of any disease. The negative consequences of large-scale quarantine are so extreme (forced confinement of sick people with the well; complete restriction of movement of large populations; difficulty in getting critical supplies, medicines, and food to people inside the quarantine zone) that this mitigation measure should be eliminated from serious consideration…

Home quarantine also raises ethical questions. Implementation of home quarantine could result in healthy, uninfected people being placed at risk of infection from sick household members. Practices to reduce the chance of transmission (hand-washing, maintaining a distance of 3 feet from infected people, etc.) could be recommended, but a policy imposing home quarantine would preclude, for example, sending healthy children to stay with relatives when a family member becomes ill. Such a policy would also be particularly hard on and dangerous to people living in close quarters, where the risk of infection would be heightened….

Harpon

radia wrote: »

The evidence we have is that when all businesses were open and no restrictions were in place, cases of COVID-19 rose exponentially from a handful to hundreds over a very short timeframe.

The evidence we have is that when restrictions were put in place to limit the number of people out and about having interactions, and the number of people with whom they interacted, and the distance at which they had those interactions, then the rate of infection was greatly reduced.

The evidence we have is that under those circumstances with all those supporting restrictions in place, meaning that the Lidl and Aldi workers met fewer people who in turn had met fewer people, at a safe distance, the infection rate was manageable.

That's very, very different from saying everything will be grand if we just open everything up and have everyone mingling as before.

I think you need to rethink your 'evidence'.

You are completely ignoring my point. Other eu countries had similar infections rates per capita as us back in feb and March, these countries have now reopened to a much greater extent than us. These countries have not had significant spikes in infection rates. Can you dispute that? No, you can’t. Because this is a fact.

As for Lidl and Aldi workers meeting fewer people at a greater distance, you have no evidence of that at all. Sales at supermarkets have exploded, so it’s very likely numbers visiting stores are up. And anyone who has been in a supermarket can tell you there is no social distancing going on.

Gregor Samsa

suicide_circus wrote: »

how many people under 65 with no co morbidities have died in ireland?

As of May 7, 14% of deaths in ICUs didn't have an underlying medical condition. That's 10 people (as of that date, 69 people had died in ICU). If you extrapolate that out to all deaths (today, 1,639), that's 229 deaths. That stat doesn't factor in age.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0507/1137125-coronavirus-analysis/

Straight answer to your question is we don't know.

FintanMcluskey

growleaves wrote: »

Alistair Haimes: The virus that turned up late

This bizzare response to a unique flu strain that only effects the elderly has one saving grace that hopefully it won't be allowed happen again.

When the inquest is carried and the overreaction is dissected, the postmortem will say Ireland completely overreacted and destroyed the country when the evidence was available for the correct course of action from Sweden.
Masks and testing.

yourdeadwright

Is anyone staying with there 5k limit now ?
By the looks of Instagram and other social media platforms the vast majority are going well beyond 5k ,

VonLuck

facehugger99 wrote: »

The media are delighted with all the clicks they are getting and have pumped out a constant stream of fear-mongering from day 1.

We will look back on these days in the coming years. The billions of debt added to our children's and grand-kids futures, the hundreds of thousands of lost jobs.

The loss of lives through reduced health spending in the coming years will dwarf anything seen by Covid.

It's quite amusing looking at your comment on fear-mongering and then reading the rest of your post.

suicide_circus

thanks for that. i'd imagine its very few, in the UK its 500 people.

what's the argument against focusing on restrictions and cocooning for those in high risk categories?

Atlantic Dawn

suicide_circus wrote: »

how many people under 65 with no co morbidities have died in ireland?

I think it was 17 below age 45 in total, that was including those with existing conditions. Much more people in this age group died in the Covid timeline on the roads in 2019, can we shut down the roads now too?

is_that_so

growleaves wrote: »

Alistair Haimes: The virus that turned up late

It is completely UK-centric and the UK has not exactly been a good role model in much of this. Lockdowns were in response what was seen in China and especially Italy and Spain. He seems to have a lot of issues with that more than anything else.

Was it the right call? Probably, in light of the novelty of the virus, its not being spotted and transmissibility.

Will we do it differently next time? Yes, and we'll do a better job of it. I think the possible options of distancing and restriction will still be there but may be less of a requirement due to overall future responses. Medicine will help us there and if enough treatments can be found to make it all but a mild illness in nearly everyone the threat will have been beaten away.

JPCN1

facehugger99 wrote: »

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

A load of single-issue bureaucrats clucking away at each other in a echo-chamber.

There's not one of them that have spent a day working in the real-economy in decades. They can concentrate on covering their arses, safe in the knowledge their gold-plated salaries and pensions will protect them from the coming sh;t-storm.

The rest of us will need to pick up the pieces of the absolute mess they've made of the economy.

Examiner reporting that Donohue has confirmed Public Sector pay rise in October.

Right under article reporting Minister McHugh saying schools may not open in Sept.

We need a new government/election asap as these idiots have completely lost the plot.

Harpon

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

As of May 7, 14% of deaths in ICUs didn't have an underlying medical condition. That's 10 people (as of that date, 69 people had died in ICU). If you extrapolate that out to all deaths (today, 1,639), that's 229 deaths. That stat doesn't factor in age.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0507/1137125-coronavirus-analysis/

Straight answer to your question is we don't know.

92% of deaths are people aged 65 or over. The median age of deaths is 82.

The facts now show we should have focused restrictions on protecting older people and immune comprised people. The rest of us should have continued on with life but wore masks and washed hands frequently. This was all so new so you can forgive them for making the mistake, but now we know the facts continuing with this policy of current restrictions is insanity. They are using a bazooka to crack a nut.

titan18

stephenjmcd wrote: »

In tomorrow mornings Irish times. Safe to say it didn't last too long so, although it's not mandatory they've quite clearly been told to get rid of it already. CMO being over ruled on the travel stance.

"The two-week quarantine period for people arriving into the State from abroad will be lifted for those coming from countries where the coronavirus has been controlled, under plans being considered by the Government."

You didn't even read that article then I guess.

In it, it says The Taoiseach told the call such changes may be made in “months not weeks”.

is_that_so

JPCN1 wrote: »

Examiner reporting that Donohue has confirmed Public Sector pay rise in October.

Right under article reporting Minister McHugh saying schools may not open in Sept.

We need a new government/election asap as these idiots have completely lost the plot.

The other "idiots" in the potential new government agree with all of this.

facehugger99

VonLuck wrote: »

It's quite amusing looking at your comment on fear-mongering and then reading the rest of your post.

I'm glad you're amused.

The billions of debt and hundreds of thousands of job losses are quite real though, I assure you. The fear-mongering over ten of thousands of Covid deaths was a load of bollox.

I'll leave you to figure out the subtle differences between the two.

bb1234567

RollieFingers wrote: »

Funny how any poll showing the majority of people asked are happy with how things are being handled are instantly dismissed, but anecdotes from people on Boards are taken as gospel.

Similarly any recognised and influential group of qualified scientists and medical personnel too dismissed in favour of some obscure professor none of us have ever heard of because it's good to question authority. But if you question this recently revered figure they've happened upon who is pushing views that fall in line with their own, well then how dare you, you'll be hit with 'oh I didnt know you were a professor' line , or 'so a random boardsie is questioning the qualifiations of this person?'.

Sums up the whole thread really, one of the most bizarre threads I've ever seen on the website. I don't think I've ever seen such an unbalanced discussion before

facehugger99

JPCN1 wrote: »

Examiner reporting that Donohue has confirmed Public Sector pay rise in October.

Right under article reporting Minister McHugh saying schools may not open in Sept.

We need a new government/election asap as these idiots have completely lost the plot.

Jesus Christ - what fcuking world are these clowns living in?

road_high

Just got a haircut. Fantastic service- there’s a ton of work going on in the background (including our blessed Gardai are customers). Fcukin delighted to get that - Covid freaks can shove it where the sun don’t shine. We are going to live regardless

stephenjmcd

titan18 wrote: »

You didn't even read that article then I guess.

In it, it says The Taoiseach told the call such changes may be made in “months not weeks”.

It was behind a paywall last night so how could I read it ??
If it's not behind one now then fair enough.

What I copied in was the opening paragraph with no paywall.

He did more interviews this morning basically saying the same. Like it or not people will travel through July and August regardless

suicide_circus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I think it was 17 below age 45 in total, that was including those with existing conditions. Much more people in this age group died in the Covid timeline on the roads in 2019, can we shut down the roads now too?

holy god, if thats accurate we are overcooking this situation to a preposterous extent.

thelad95

road_high wrote: »

Just got a haircut. Fantastic service- there’s a ton of work going on in the background (including our blessed Gardai are customers). Fcukin delighted to get that - Covid freaks can shove it where the sun don’t shine. We are high to live regardless

Where could one avail of such a service?

JPCN1

is_that_so wrote: »

The other "idiots" in the potential new government agree with all of this.

Sadly, that is a fair enough point. Maybe we could ask the Troika to come back and save us then.