Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

LiquidZeb

setanta1984 wrote: »

Just look at that graphic from the Guardian. It's utterly depressing to see how far literally every country(bar the UK) has progressed by week commencing May 11. We are literally 3 months behind all of this. We had double digit new cases outside care homes this week.

Schools, childcare, shops, bars, restaurants, hotels, museums, hairdressers, car dealerships, cinemas, even professional sports and gatherings up to 100, all in various parts of the continent.



How can people justify us being so radically different to basically everywhere?

Tsk, look at all those idiots in France Germany and Austria. They don't know what they're doing clearly they want to kill all their old people. They need the SAS level precision the true pros like holohan and Harris bring to the table.

stephenjmcd

alwald wrote: »

Which EU country managed well nursing homes??

Well aren't we supposed to be looking at other countries seeing as we're behind them to not make the mistakes they have ?? No country managed them well and that's the whole point, the long term care system will have a raft of recommendations come out of this.

What was the logic behind telling nursing homes not to stop visitors when the virus was quite clearly in circulation. Why were agency staff still allowed to move freely between nursing homes during a pandemic ? Theres a hell of alot of questions to be asked regarding nursing homes, ranging from early preventative measures to PPE and containment measures.

Down the line when we're back to "normal" no doubt all of these questions will be put to health officials.

deisedevil

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Why do you keep trying to portray everyone who simply wants to mimic the way France, Germany and other European countries as suicidal moronic lemmings? People just want to salvage some amount of their lives and keep going. You can't wave mass unemployment, economic collapse, separation from relations at home and abroad in front of people's faces and act as if they're behaving like idiots.

A lot of the people looking for restrictions to be lifted be damned asap are moronic lemmings.

Do you think there's actually no reason at all to why it's being done like this? That they should listen to the likes of you who know better? Try and realise that they are genuinely trying to do what's best for everyone with regards to saving lives and the economy. And most people who think they know better are basing their opinion on far far less than our experts are.

alwald

stephenjmcd wrote: »

I'd be quite surprised if someone wasn't sacrificed be it from dept of health or HSE due to the nursing home situation and how they had time to stop it and didn't.

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Well aren't we supposed to be looking at other countries seeing as we're behind them to not make the mistakes they have ?? No country managed them well and that's the whole point

You are jumping from one conclusion to another...you are not even sure of your own waffle which makes it hard to have a discussion with you and this is not the first time...get your thoughts in order please before waffling your nonsense.

LiquidZeb

deisedevil wrote: »

A lot of the people looking for restrictions to be lifted be damned asap are moronic lemmings.

Do you think there's actually no reason at all to why it's being done like this? That they should listen to the likes of you who know better? Try and realise that they are genuinely trying to do what's best for everyone with regards to saving lives and the economy. And most people who think they know better are basing their opinion on far far less than our experts are.

Right so the French and German governments are moronic lemmings and you're super smart. Somehow I doubt that.

deisedevil

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Our experts have presided over 1430 deaths and counting.

Taiwan's experts presided over 6 deaths despite being 80 miles from China.

Vietnam's experts have presided over ZERO deaths despite having a long and porous border with China.

Still think our experts are experts? Or clueless idiots?

They are clearly and without question the latter.

Ok. They're useless.

What now then? Harness the power of the minds of the boards forums is it?

What's the alternative so like?

jibber5000

hamburgham wrote: »

Would recommend Covid articles in the Daily Telegraph.Excellent informed writers representing a DIVERSITY of views on the value of lockdown, many extremely sceptical. Complete contrast to our media which apart from Ivan Yates is only interested in generating fear porn.

Was one very interesting piece which completely rubbished Ferguson’s modelling, quoted a doctor who said the idea of a load of 80+ year olds ending up in ICU was laughable to every med practitioner, it doesn’t happen as sadly their bodies aren’t able for it . This one example of reality wasn’t factored into the model though hence ICUs will be overrun. There was also an analysis of his previous predictions on SARS,MAD COW, Etc ,deaths all massively massively Overstated.

The best way to analyse the health of those that died from Covid isn't by their age. Its by looking at the numbers who have died in ICU.

In Ireland approx 65 people have died in our ICU's.

This means out of all the people that died, only 65 were viewed as having a decent chance at recovery.

And we've shut down our entire country for 4 months knowing that number. It's incredible.

FintanMcluskey

deisedevil wrote: »

Try and realise that they are genuinely trying to do what's best for everyone with regards to saving lives and the economy.

Rubbish.
The wrong people are being asked the wrong questions.

NPHET dont have any economists on board only media living medical goons who like their own opinions

FintanMcluskey

jibber5000 wrote: »

The best way to analyse the health of those that died from Covid isn't by their age. Its by looking at the numbers who have died in ICU.

In Ireland approx 65 people have died in our ICU's.

This means out of all the people that died, only 65 were viewed as having a decent chance at recovery.

And we've shut down our entire country for 4 months knowing that number. It's incredible.

Wow. I hadn't seen this broken down before.
So 65 with a decent chance.
Fcuk the next generations though

stephenjmcd

alwald wrote: »

You are jumping from one conclusion to another...you are not even sure of your own waffle which makes it hard to have a discussion with you and this is not the first time...get your thoughts in order please before waffling your nonsense.

What on earth are you on about? They keep saying we're learning from other countries and behind them in terms of infection, well if we're learning from other countries and had been during it while being behind them, then surely they would have seen the situation in nursing homes in other countries and acted quicker here ?? Therefore both the dept of health and HSE based off the European experience had additional time to react and didn't. We had nursing homes locking themselves down and the CMO saying no you dont need to do that, I loathe to think of what the situation would be like if they had stayed open to visitors.

What's so difficult to understand about that. I'm quite sure of the point I'm trying to make, you can't seem to grasp it though, nothing new there, not my fault if you can't grasp a basic argument. Our health officials had time to react based on the European experience of the virus and didn't.

LiquidZeb

deisedevil wrote: »

Ok. They're useless.

What now then? Harness the power of the minds of the boards forums is it?

What's the alternative so like?

Right so we blindly trust the government and never question them. When has that ever gone wrong for us. Keep believing leo gives a **** about you if it helps you sleep better.

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

And thats where the stats are innacurate.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXgt8CtX0AE2SiZ.jpg

We can not say if one person that died from/with Covid would be alive today if Covid did not exist

Google Influenza pandemics of 2018 etc and all the info is there.

If you look at the Center for Disease Control Website in the US -

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

They give the following mortality rates for Influenza in the United States:

2010/11 - 37000

2011/12 - 12000

2012/2013 - 43000

2013/2014 - 38000

2014/2015 - 51000

2015/16 - 23000

2016/2017 - 38000

2017/2018 - 61000

2018/2019 - 34000

And that flu season is typically measured roughly over a six month period.

At the moment the death toll from Covid 19, measured roughly over a three month period, is, according to the same source -

73000( And that number continues to grow)

So in half the time and with widespread mitigation measures that wouldn't have been in place for an influenza season, it's managed to be more deadly than any single flu season in the US in the last nine years.

Would that not suggest to you that maybe, just maybe, it might be more deadly than the common flu?

alwald

jibber5000 wrote: »

The best way to analyse the health of those that died from Covid isn't by their age. Its by looking at the numbers who have died in ICU.

In Ireland approx 65 people have died in our ICU's.

This means out of all the people that died, only 65 were viewed as having a decent chance at recovery.

And we've shut down our entire country for 4 months knowing that number. It's incredible.

What's incredible is your inability to look at the total number of people that needed ICUs with the restrictions versus the number without restrictions and the deaths/chaos that would have followed...sigh!!

deisedevil

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Right so the French and German governments are moronic lemmings and you're super smart. Somehow I doubt that.

I'm only smart enough to follow those who are most likely to bring me in the right direction. Do that every time in life and you'll seldom get lost.

Have you ever considered that we might be waiting to see how the lifting of restrictions in other countries works out. I was on a conference call with a medical expert presenting there recently and he was telling us that our experts are waiting to see how it works out elsewhere in Europe and if all is well then they can start to bring some lifting of restrictions in earlier. But better to under promise and then over deliver. Otherwise the lemmings might lose it altogether. Sounds like a pretty sensible thing to do.

tobefrank321

deisedevil wrote: »

Ok. They're useless.

What now then? Harness the power of the minds of the boards forums is it?

What's the alternative so like?

Copy and paste what successful countries have done. Its really that simple. Countries that have minimised deaths and economic damage. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Portugal, Slovakia, Greece. Plenty of examples.

Far more countries have controlled covid 19 than let it destroy their economies and kill a large number of people. These countries are well positioned to open and will be long after our "experts" are telling us to stay in lockdown.

FintanMcluskey

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Right so the French and German governments are moronic lemmings and you're super smart. Somehow I doubt that.

Haha.
Merkel has more balls than our leaders. And I mean her no disrespect, but shes a leader who doesn't lead behind a cloak of fear. Someone to respect

deisedevil

LiquidZeb wrote: »

Right so we blindly trust the government and never question them. When has that ever gone wrong for us. Keep believing leo gives a **** about you if it helps you sleep better.

I can't stand Leo. I much prefer to listen to people who really know what they are talking about.

alwald

stephenjmcd wrote: »

What on earth are you on about? They keep saying we're learning from other countries and behind them in terms of infection, well if we're learning from other countries and had been during it while being behind them, then surely they would have seen the situation in nursing homes in other countries and acted quicker here ?? Therefore both the dept of health and HSE based off the European experience had additional time to react and didn't. We had nursing homes locking themselves down and the CMO saying no you dont need to do that, I loathe to this of what the situation would be like if they had stayed open to visitors.

What's so difficult to understand about that. I'm quite sure of the point I'm trying to make, you can't seem to grasp it though, nothing new there.

Again, in your first post you mentioned that

stephenjmcd wrote: »

I'd be quite surprised if someone wasn't sacrificed be it from dept of health or HSE due to the nursing home situation and how they had time to stop it and didn't.

And then admitted that other EU countries had the same issue

stephenjmcd wrote: »

No country managed them well and that's the whole point

Do you see your own contradiction or not??

jibber5000

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Wow. I hadn't seen this broken down before.
So 65 with a decent chance.
Fcuk the next generations though

Was 55 deaths in ICU as at April 30th.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/20f2e0-updates-on-covid-19-coronavirus-since-january-2020/#april

Cant find link but was officially mentioned 65 in the last couple of days, which would make sense on the above figures.

FintanMcluskey

Arghus wrote: »

If you look at the Center for Disease Control Website in the US -

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

They give the following mortality rates for Influenza in the United States:

2010/11 - 37000

2011/12 - 12000

2012/2013 - 43000

2013/2014 - 38000

2014/2015 - 51000

2015/16 - 23000

2016/2017 - 38000

2017/2018 - 61000

2018/2019 - 34000

And that flu season is typically measured roughly over a six month period.

At the moment the death toll from Covid 19, measured roughly over a three month period, is, according to the same source -

73000( And that number continues to grow)

So in half the time and with widespread mitigation measures that wouldn't have been in place for an influenza season, it's managed to be more deadly than any single flu season in the US in the last nine years.

Would that not suggest to you that maybe, just maybe, it might be more deadly than the common flu?

Thats whole post is discredited by the fact influenza is not a notifiable disease in America.
So if you get influenza in America and die, its notified as respiratory illness.
Check Italy from 2015

deisedevil

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Copy and paste what successful countries have done. Its really that simple. Countries that have minimised deaths and economic damage.

Ah yes. Simples. How did our thickos not think if that? Quick, tell them the error of their ways. Fair play to ya. You must have a serious level of education I'd say.

LiquidZeb

deisedevil wrote: »

I'm only smart enough to follow those who are most likely to bring me in the right direction. Do that every time in life and you'll seldom get lost.

Have you ever considered that we might be waiting to see how the lifting of restrictions in other countries works out. I was on a conference call with a medical expert presenting there recently and he was telling us that our experts are waiting to see how it works out elsewhere in Europe and if all is well then they can start to bring some lifting of restrictions in earlier. But better to under promise and then over deliver. Otherwise the lemmings might lose it altogether. Sounds like a pretty sensible thing to do.

You know I used the lemmings thing to take the pistachio out of your apparent sense of superiority, I'd hope you have a bit more self awareness not to seriously call people lemmings, Jesus Christ you're not lex luthor

retro:electro

deisedevil wrote: »

They're trying to squeeze as much out of the restrictions as they can. Setting deadlines of a few weeks and then extending it over and over is supposedly easier for some peoples minds to handle than being told your going to have to do this for 6 months. But some lads have finally realised that. And they're not happy. How dare them fellas trick us into staying safe like that. We'll make up our own minds about how we'll fúck this up, they say.

Setting deadlines and then extending them over and over is unacceptable, unfair and as good as being lied to. I was all for locking down at the start. I’ve been contributing to these threads since March and I was very vocal about Leo pulling the finger out initially, cancelling the parades and getting this curve flattened so our health system isn’t over burdened. We did that. The system is not and was never over whelmed, in fact it’s underwhelmed with many A&E’s deserted and consultations and procedures cancelled. This is just raging lunacy at this point. The rest of Europe is opening up and doing quite well so I don’t see how it makes sense for us to drag this on til the arse end of August.

Industries that can provide genuine and workable solutions in keeping with social distancing measures should be allowed to open up. I’ve no gripes with Tony Holohan he seems nice a decent chap, hardworking and I know he’s under serious pressure, but the decisions shouldn’t be left up to him. As CMO he naturally has the health of the nation in his best interest but our government should have many interests at the centre of their decision making, and yes the economy is a major one. It’s like Leo is totally awe struck and can’t say no to the man, even admitting on The Late Late that barbers opening in stage 4 was a “bone of contention” between the two. Well then put the foot down ya gobshlte you’re the one in charge.

frillyleaf

prunudo wrote: »

"Dickie 10

so do people think we could be pushed back another 2 weeks of this on may 18th?"

Just carrying this over from the old thread. Yes, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if they decided to extend another week or 2 depending how they feel the numbers are going. We're already getting the sound bites, similar in the lead up to May 5th.
But this time I think there would be large scale disobedience, a lot of people I've talked to are gearing up to start back on the 18th regardless of what the government say, they can't take lack of income anymore.

I haven’t seen any indication that they could push back the date again. In fact it is has been positive news that we are doing well.

tobefrank321

deisedevil wrote: »

Ah yes. Simples. How did our thickos not think if that? Quick, tell them the error of their ways. Fair play to ya. You must have a serious level of education I'd say.

I'm genuinely confused why you think we shouldn't follow best international practice?

Its obvious our experts didn't.

FintanMcluskey

retro:electro wrote: »

I’ve no gripes with Tony Holohan he seems nice a decent chap,

I have mostly agreed with your posts but I can't here.

deisedevil

LiquidZeb wrote: »

You know I used the lemmings thing to take the pistachio out of your apparent sense of superiority, I'd hope you have a bit more self awareness not to seriously call people lemmings, Jesus Christ you're not lex luthor

That's gas. I'm disagreeing with those that feel they have superior knowledge to the experts handling this crisis. My point is, unless you have some sort of solid research done that proves they are doing things wrong then shut up and do what they ask.

Arghus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

And thats where the stats are innacurate.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXgt8CtX0AE2SiZ.jpg

We can not say if one person that died from/with Covid would be alive today if Covid did not exist

Google Influenza pandemics of 2018 etc and all the info is there.

More stats.

Deaths from Influenza in New York State.

2018 - 4749

2017 - 4517

2016 - 4513

2015 - 4881

2014 - 4702

Deaths from Coronavirus in New York State - 21045

stephenjmcd

alwald wrote: »

Again, in your first post you mentioned that



And then admitted that other EU countries had the same issue



Do you see your own contradiction or not??

Jesus christ how can you not grasp the whole point.

Some other European countries had issues in nursing homes, the CMO, dept of health, HSE all keep saying we're learning from other countries and our timeline of infection is behind them. Therefore if our timeline of infection is behind them and we're learning from them, how come we repeated the mistakes dispite seeing them happen in other countries and having time to ensure they didn't happen here??

Hence my original point, an investigation or committee whatever government at the time decide when this is over will highly likely find officials made the wrong calls and certain times. Let's see the clamour for a scapegoat within the departments when that happens, in particular to the decision making process surrounding nursing homes.

I can't put it much simpler for you to understand really. If we are behind other European countries then why didn't we learn from their mistakes instead of repeating them

jibber5000

alwald wrote: »

What's incredible is your inability to look at the total number of people that needed ICUs with the restrictions versus the number without restrictions and the deaths/chaos that would have followed...sigh!!

You're missing the point completely.

The overwhelming majority of people who unfortunately die from Covid (>95%) had extremely poor long term survival prior to contracting the virus.

For a disease that disporportionately kills the very sick and elderly, we are taking draconian measures affecting the livelihoods of the entire population. I do find that incredible.