Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

kona

billy few mates wrote: »

So does that slide is not really accurate.

If the 757 wet leases were still active at the time of the crisis EI could have handed them back and walked away but the wet lease was already finished so the aircraft had already been handed back and replaced by more expensive A321LRs on operating leases which they're now stuck with.

I may be wrong but I think those lr were bought by ei and sold to a lease company, then leased back.

Jack1985

CJX wet lease was terminated early as a result of the pandemic had originally been planned to leave the fleet on 30/04.

Tenger

Jack1985 wrote: »

CJX wet lease was terminated early as a result of the pandemic had originally been planned to leave the fleet on 30/04.

Exactly, the devil is in the details. The contract on a single aircraft (as well as the entire ASL operation) was terminated approx 6 weeks early.
But somehow the “ending lease on 4x B757” was included in the slide.


A mate showed me the CEO message this evening.
He threatened “compulsory redundancies”. Blamed Irish Govt and the unions.
She said they have been told there will be no increase in flights after the current rostered duties, which is up to mid Sept. (so no increase until mid October)

That’s not a good situation at all.

kona

Tenger wrote: »

Exactly, the devil is in the details. The contract on a single aircraft (as well as the entire ASL operation) was terminated approx 6 weeks early.
But somehow the “ending lease on 4x B757” was included in the slide.


A mate showed me the CEO message this evening.
He threatened “compulsory redundancies”. Blamed Irish Govt and the unions.
She said they have been told there will be no increase in flights after the current rostered duties, which is up to mid Sept. (so no increase until mid October)

That’s not a good situation at all.

Blame all they want, from what i cant see all they have done is whinge and look to take money off people.

Why dont they explore taking a a330 and doing the necessary work and use it for cargo ops, even if its restricted for certain things, some money is better than no money. This doesn't look like ending anytime soon so it may keep the lights on.

Any management or ceo can look like rockstars when the world is booming and your company can name its price, they had no problem letting everybody know too.

Phen2206

kona wrote: »

Why dont they explore taking a a330 and doing the necessary work and use it for cargo ops, even if its restricted for certain things, some money is better than no money. This doesn't look like ending anytime soon so it may keep the lights on.

They've done that with the China PPE operation and the Korean operation which is ongoing right now. I don't get the point you're trying to make here

kona

Phen2206 wrote: »

They've done that with the China PPE operation and the Korean operation which is ongoing right now. I don't get the point you're trying to make here

No they are throwing lightweight masks on seats,

They should explore getting modifications done to the cabins to take more cargo such as the many amounts of medical supplies which are being trucked to the uk for export or perhaps they could have tried to get the contracts that virgin Atlantic have?

Im taking about exploringthe idea of using their aircraft for more long term cargo ops, not a last minute cobbled together plan to help out the country in a time of need.

Tenger

kona wrote: »

.......
Im taking about exploringthe idea of using their aircraft for more long term cargo ops, not a last minute cobbled together plan to help out the country in a time of need.

Previously I would have suggested there was no need to reconfigure an A330.
However with the official announcement on mothballing 3 of them, there could be scope for having a single cargo capable airframe (obviously not equal to an A330) ready to take work as it appears.

donkey balls

kona wrote: »

No they are throwing lightweight masks on seats,

They should explore getting modifications done to the cabins to take more cargo such as the many amounts of medical supplies which are being trucked to the uk for export or perhaps they could have tried to get the contracts that virgin Atlantic have?

Im taking about exploringthe idea of using their aircraft for more long term cargo ops, not a last minute cobbled together plan to help out the country in a time of need.

A lot of airfreight before the pandemic was trucked to the UK and has been for years, I read an article about BA taking out the seats on one of the 777.
Hate to be the person hand balling all the freight on to that aircraft.

goingnowhere

EI is generating a considerable cash flow out of the PPE ops, keeping aircraft and crews active.

Now you could rip the seats out of -LAX and make fewer trips. It would have to be -LAX as its likely to be razorblades next year, and it has the go anywhere range and the 242 MTOW, but its got less hold space as a -200 so benefit might not be as big as you might think

billy few mates

Jack1985 wrote: »

CJX wet lease was terminated early as a result of the pandemic had originally been planned to leave the fleet on 30/04.

That's the point, they were able to terminate the one remaining wet lease a few weeks early to get it off the books but they're stuck with the operating leases of the LRs that replaced them, but that's not exactly what the slide is suggesting.

billy few mates

kona wrote: »

I may be wrong but I think those lr were bought by ei and sold to a lease company, then leased back.

I think you're wrong...

https://airleasecorp.com/press/air-lease-corporation-announces-delivery-of-first-of-eight-new-airbus-a321-200neo-lr-aircraft-to-aer-lingus

kona

goingnowhere wrote: »

EI is generating a considerable cash flow out of the PPE ops, keeping aircraft and crews active.

Now you could rip the seats out of -LAX and make fewer trips. It would have to be -LAX as its likely to be razorblades next year, and it has the go anywhere range and the 242 MTOW, but its got less hold space as a -200 so benefit might not be as big as you might think

Realistically, the cabin space would only be suitable for relatively lightweight non dangerous goods but if there is a market for it then i dont see why they shouldnt at least explore the idea.

IAG said They expect levels of profit to take until 2023 to return to a normal level, thats along time to be burning through cash at the rate aer lingus are.

This has been known about since january, and the **** hit the fan in March, aer lingus are still fluting about deciding on what approach to take, somewhere between trying to shaft staff terms and conditions (many staff who probably will be made redundant anyways unfortunately)and blaming the government.

kona

billy few mates wrote: »

I think you're wrong...

https://airleasecorp.com/press/air-lease-corporation-announces-delivery-of-first-of-eight-new-airbus-a321-200neo-lr-aircraft-to-aer-lingus

I know they are leased but did aer lingus or IAG have the order with airbus?
Its not uncommon for airlines to sell and then lease the aircraft back.

billy few mates

kona wrote: »

Realistically, the cabin space would only be suitable for relatively lightweight non dangerous goods but if there is a market for it then i dont see why they shouldnt at least explore the idea.

IAG said They expect levels of profit to take until 2023 to return to a normal level, thats along time to be burning through cash at the rate aer lingus are.

This has been known about since january, and the **** hit the fan in March, aer lingus are still fluting about deciding on what approach to take, somewhere between trying to shaft staff terms and conditions (many staff who probably will be made redundant anyways unfortunately)and blaming the government.

The approval for carriage of cargo in the cabins of passenger aircraft is only a temporary measure as part of the response to the pandemic.

https://www.easa.europa.eu › ...PDF
Guidelines for the transport of cargo in passenger aircraft - EASA

dfx-

Jack1985 wrote: »

It's pretty devastating, a complete U-turn in the performance of the airline to tinkering on critical.

Fundamentally it is clear that the Irish Gov approach is exacerbating all problems, it's not just EI with a low LF in operating to/from Ireland. The Group of airlines LF's are recovering, BA catching up to IB/VY with targeted resumption of leisure flying which is performing well to certain markets (e.g. Italy, Greece).

Despite EI's attempt, it has failed to materialise.

What has EI actually done since lockdown? Has it identified any markets to be ready or are they waiting for it to blow over and go back to TA, TA connections and mediterranean holidays.

kona

billy few mates wrote: »

The approval for carriage of cargo in the cabins of passenger aircraft is only a temporary measure as part of the response to the pandemic.

https://www.easa.europa.eu › ...PDF
Guidelines for the transport of cargo in passenger aircraft - EASA

Not if the aircraft is suitably modified and has the necessary certification, im not talking about throwing Boxes on seats.

donkey balls

kona wrote: »

Not if the aircraft is suitably modified and has the necessary certification, im not talking about throwing Boxes on seats.

Realistically the seats could be ripped out along with the carpet and were the seats are bolted to the floor you could put the tracks down for pallet netting.
The one thing is that it would take hours to load and you would have the W&B to work out, Just had a look at a A330 200F it says that the maindeck can hold 23 pallets im assuming they are PMC size.
That is a lot of space for loading and I assume they would leave the overhead bins in place and possibly biz class seats.

Graham

kona wrote: »

Not if the aircraft is suitably modified and has the necessary certification, im not talking about throwing Boxes on seats.

A proper P2F conversion is around $16 million and doesn't happen overnight.

kona

Graham wrote: »

A proper P2F conversion is around $16 million and doesn't happen overnight.

Im not talking about a proper conversion and a a330 to be converted to a freighter requires massive structural and design modification.

This is something for a company like aer lingus to explore the feasibility of bearing in mind that they are probably looking at up to 2 years of trouble.

donkey balls

Graham wrote: »

A proper P2F conversion is around $16 million and doesn't happen overnight.

I don't think he was mentioning a full conversion were a cargo door and floor be fitted, After all what would they do with the aircraft afterwards unless they sold it to a cargo operator.
Couldn't see it going back into service in a pax config, Although saying that I use to see JET2 737 and years before that Titan ATR both in freighter/pax config.

kona

donkey balls wrote: »

Realistically the seats could be ripped out along with the carpet and were the seats are bolted to the floor you could put the tracks down for pallet netting.
The one thing is that it would take hours to load and you would have the W&B to work out, Just had a look at a A330 200F it says that the maindeck can hold 23 pallets im assuming they are PMC size.
That is a lot of space for loading and I assume they would leave the overhead bins in place and possibly biz class seats.

Well its better than sitting around burning millions waiting to go bust i would have thought, the government is subsidising the wage bill, so you have plenty of manpower to load it and plenty of time to do it.

donkey balls

kona wrote: »

Well its better than sitting around burning millions waiting to go bust i would have thought, the government is subsidising the wage bill, so you have plenty of manpower to load it and plenty of time to do it.

Going from experience to load approx 6000kgs hand balling would take just under an hour thats getting the netting tied down etc.
If EI were to do it they could have 4 trucks 2 front 2 aft with staff making a human chain.
Or as someone mentioned one of the 330s is going to the desert soon,Maybe they could see if a full freighter conversion be viable get it done and see if they could sell it on later.
I also read about an A380 having its seats pulled out for freghter work imagine having to load that.

Graham

kona wrote: »

Well its better than sitting around burning millions waiting to go bust i would have thought, the government is subsidising the wage bill, so you have plenty of manpower to load it and plenty of time to do it.

Do EI have the in house capability for full passenger to freight conversions?

smurfjed

One or two A330 operating cargo flights is not going to solve the present EI problems, while it might keep pilots and maintenance busy, it offers no benefits to a load of other employees. So unfortunately i dont see this removing the threat of compulsory redundancies.

donkey balls

Graham wrote: »

Do EI have the in house capability for full passenger to freight conversions?

Doubt it my aul crowd who are freighter specialists would have Boeing convert there ones,I remember flying on one and they still had the first-class seats in them and the logo of the pax airline still on the seat.

kona

Graham wrote: »

Do EI have the in house capability for full passenger to freight conversions?

No, and they wont be carrying out any such modifications to any of their aircraft id imagine.

Aer lingus would be crazy to go ripping apart 330s for full on 2 deck cargo configuration.

kona

smurfjed wrote: »

One or two A330 operating cargo flights is not going to solve the present EI problems, while it might keep pilots and maintenance busy, it offers no benefits to a load of other employees. So unfortunately i dont see this removing the threat of compulsory redundancies.

It may keep it going long enough to secure future employment in a few years.
From the numbers and the way things are being run, unfortunately there are going to be alot of compulsory redundancies in aer lingus.

billy few mates

kona wrote: »

Not if the aircraft is suitably modified and has the necessary certification, im not talking about throwing Boxes on seats.

What do you mean suitably modified, there's an STC for the full passenger to freight conversion which installs the large cargo door, modifies the complete structure (including raising the NLG), installs a certified 9G bulkhead wall and a complete floor mounted cargo loading system, smoke detection/fire extinguishing system
OR
there's the current EASA (and FAA) temporary derogation allowing the carriage of certain freight in the cabins of passenger aircraft.
The first option is very expensive and could take anything from six months to a year to complete, not including the wait time for a conversion slot as there are not that many places approved or capable to do them or they can continue on as they have been doing until EASA withdraws the approval, which they will eventually unless some organisation comes up with a suitable hybrid conversion somewhere in between, but again that would require a whole new STC and approval and I can't see anybody going to that trouble and expense for potentially very little return.

The truth is that the A330F isn't a very desirable freighter, Etihad and Qatar got rid of theirs, the B777 is far more efficient and far more sought after as a freighter.

https://theloadstar.com/amid-shortage-widebody-freighters-a330-given-wide-berth/

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/reports/qatar-airways-to-dispose-of-a330f-fleet-intensifies-price-competition-418691

kona

billy few mates wrote: »

What do you mean suitably modified, there's an STC for the full passenger to freight conversion which installs the large cargo door, modifies the complete structure (including raising the NLG), installs a certified 9G bulkhead wall and a complete floor mounted cargo loading system, smoke detection/fire extinguishing system
OR
there's the current EASA (and FAA) temporary derogation allowing the carriage of certain freight in the cabins of passenger aircraft.
The first option is very expensive and could take anything from six months to a year to complete, not including the wait time for a conversion slot as there are not that many places approved or capable to do them or they can continue on as they have been doing until EASA withdraws the approval, which they will eventually unless some organisation comes up with a suitable hybrid conversion somewhere in between, but again that would require a whole new STC and approval and I can't see anybody going to that trouble and expense for potentially very little return.

The truth is that the A330F isn't a very desirable freighter, Etihad and Qatar got rid of theirs, the B777 is far more efficient and far more sought after as a freighter.

https://theloadstar.com/amid-shortage-widebody-freighters-a330-given-wide-berth/

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/reports/qatar-airways-to-dispose-of-a330f-fleet-intensifies-price-competition-418691

Suitabley modified and certified would indeed mean a stc and relevant modifications.
Aer lingus would need to approach airbus or a stc and give them their requirements and see if they can be met withing the existing easa regs.

Just to be clear im not talking about modifications to regular cargo spec . Im talkimg about using the space in the cabin to transport non dangerous goods which would have to fit through the existing entry points and fall within what the cabin is designed for such as weight and fire protection.

billy few mates

Graham wrote: »

Do EI have the in house capability for full passenger to freight conversions?

They don't even do their own base maintenance as far as I'm aware.
Forty years ago they were one of the largest MROs in Europe, fully self sufficient with full in-house capabilities and workshops for maintaining the entire fleet and the fleets of their large number of customer airlines from all corners of the world, engine shops, APU shops, landing gear overhaul, full Avionics shops, multiple hangars, a painting section, practically everything was done in house, now they have one big hangar (hangar 6) and they do a few engine changes and A Checks.
Maybe bringing all their maintenance back in house is something they should consider as part of the survival plan, they have the capacity, they have the knowledge and skills, once they're up and running they could look at going after third party work to subsidise their own maintenance costs, there are plenty of aircraft leasing companies in Ireland always looking for maintenance partners.

donkey balls

billy few mates wrote: »

What do you mean suitably modified, there's an STC for the full passenger to freight conversion which installs the large cargo door, modifies the complete structure (including raising the NLG), installs a certified 9G bulkhead wall and a complete floor mounted cargo loading system, smoke detection/fire extinguishing system
OR
there's the current EASA (and FAA) temporary derogation allowing the carriage of certain freight in the cabins of passenger aircraft.
The first option is very expensive and could take anything from six months to a year to complete, not including the wait time for a conversion slot as there are not that many places approved or capable to do them or they can continue on as they have been doing until EASA withdraws the approval, which they will eventually unless some organisation comes up with a suitable hybrid conversion somewhere in between, but again that would require a whole new STC and approval and I can't see anybody going to that trouble and expense for potentially very little return.

The truth is that the A330F isn't a very desirable freighter, Etihad and Qatar got rid of theirs, the B777 is far more efficient and far more sought after as a freighter.

https://theloadstar.com/amid-shortage-widebody-freighters-a330-given-wide-berth/

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/reports/qatar-airways-to-dispose-of-a330f-fleet-intensifies-price-competition-418691

Interesting articles on the 330F I know that an operating company for DHL use them, I thought they be used a lot more considering FEDEX DHL and UPS use the older variant A300/310.
Fedex still use the A300 along with 757/767 777 and MD 11 MD10.

Nijmegen

The cargo argument is, I think, a little bit independent of supply and demand considerations. So firstly the volume of cargo by weight has dropped considerably during the crisis, but the volume by area is probably up due to all the PPE flying around. But a lot of cargo birds have been pulled out of the desert and so as flows return to normal there’s already more freighters in the air than there was in January. Your half pregnant A330 might find it difficult to survive in that environment in a few months. PPE flights will probably decline as production meets demand and PPE gets put onto the slower cargo ships that can move it at a considerably more economic cost, or its just produced in-country.

https://www.accenture.com/ie-en/insights/travel/coronavirus-air-cargo-capacity

kona

Nijmegen wrote: »

The cargo argument is, I think, a little bit independent of supply and demand considerations. So firstly the volume of cargo by weight has dropped considerably during the crisis, but the volume by area is probably up due to all the PPE flying around. But a lot of cargo birds have been pulled out of the desert and so as flows return to normal there’s already more freighters in the air than there was in January. Your half pregnant A330 might find it difficult to survive in that environment in a few months. PPE flights will probably decline as production meets demand and PPE gets put onto the slower cargo ships that can move it at a considerably more economic cost, or its just produced in-country.

https://www.accenture.com/ie-en/insights/travel/coronavirus-air-cargo-capacity

Without knowing the full story about distribution and costs of such stuff, id have thought that as a country we have a massive scope to produce pharmaceuticals and high performance micro electronics, the kind of things that are relatively small and lightweight which could be transported in a suitably modified cabin.
With aer lingus not flying to west coast usa all the cargo that came and went on those daily flights is now elsewhere also.

Nijmegen

kona wrote: »

Without knowing the full story about distribution and costs of such stuff, id have thought that as a country we have a massive scope to produce pharmaceuticals and high performance micro electronics, the kind of things that are relatively small and lightweight which could be transported in a suitably modified cabin.
With aer lingus not flying to west coast usa all the cargo that came and went on those daily flights is now elsewhere also.

Yeah, and FedEx or UPS puts on another flight to their hubs and it’s sorted. I think people have got excited at the recent glut in air cargo volume, but it’s not sustainable at all particularly with existing dedicated freight haulers pulling gas guzzlers out of the desert with oil prices on the floor.

Graham

kona wrote: »

Without knowing the full story about distribution and costs of such stuff, id have thought that as a country we have a massive scope to produce pharmaceuticals and high performance micro electronics, the kind of things that are relatively small and lightweight which could be transported in a suitably modified cabin.

We do produce those things, I assume Intel/Pfizer et al already have more cost effective arrangements to get them out of the country then hand-balling them into a passenger aircraft.

kona

Graham wrote: »

We do produce those things, I assume Intel/Pfizer et al already have more cost effective arrangements to get them out of the country then hand-balling them into a passenger aircraft.

Who knows as they probably havnt been presented with such a product by aer lingus. It cannt be any worse than handballing them into a truck then into a uld container:rolleyes:

Aer lingus already used to ship a lot of this gear, i assume this lost capacity has been absorbed into somewhere else.

Jack1985

A lot of cargo is being re-directed from previous channels also, for example cargo from Boston Scientific being re-routed from Shannon onto flights from DUB/ORK-LHR then onward to the US with BA. Of the Flights EI operate from DUB to BOS/ORD/JFK they are nearly full with hold cargo daily.

Graham

EI are probably smart enough to know they can't compete with a commercial freight company, operating freight aircraft, on a long term contract.

Who knows.

If cargo capacity was a major issue for EI, I'd expect we'd already have more flights with limited passengers and full holds.

kona

Graham wrote: »

EI are probably smart enough to know they can't compete with a commercial freight company, operating freight aircraft, on a long term contract.

Who knows.

If cargo capacity was a major issue for EI, I'd expect we'd already have more flights with limited passengers and full holds.

The main concern with aer lingus is complaining to the government, law suits and blaming the staff and unions.

Graham

kona wrote: »

The main concern with aer lingus is complaining to the government, law suits and blaming the staff and unions.

Not how I'd see the landscape but there you go.

donkey balls

Regarding connectivity for freight anything that went out on our freighters was delivered the next day across the USA, Sometimes the heavy weight pallets be bumped for the higher priced express freight.
Not sure what the likes of EI charged for a PMC pallet compared to the 3 intergraters.

kona

Graham wrote: »

Not how I'd see the landscape but there you go.

has there been some news involving aer lingus which has stated different?

kevinandrew

The idea that management at Aer Lingus need to be creative and explore new opportunities instead of supposedly blaming everyone else is a bizarre narrative to adopt. The latter isn’t even happening.

The crisis is here and now, any action taken to protect the business must have a near immediate effect. Thinking about cargo conversions or attempting to enter completely new markets at a time when the industry is on its knees will only accelerate cash burn.

I’m afraid the medicine of the day will be job losses, a drastically smaller network and an even leaner operation. Anything else is pie in the sky for at least the next 2-3 years.

imfml

EI staff have begun a social media campaign that those who read here might be interested in signing and sharing.

https://www.change.org/p/minister-for-transport-tourism-and-sport-save-our-shamrock?recruiter=445998562&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=share_email_responsive&recruited_by_id=91ba4900-a0ce-11e5-9955-f9694e64df94&utm_content=fht-23838036-en-gb%3A3

Phen2206

kona wrote: »

has there been some news involving aer lingus which has stated different?

What do you expect Aer Lingus to do? There is next to ZERO public demand for air travel right now and very likely for the rest of this year at least. Ireland's strict travel guidance compared to a lot of other European countries puts Aer Lingus at a distinct disadvantage to other carriers not to mention the 'flight-shaming' going on that is deterring some people who would otherwise like to travel even to green-list countries (e.g. school principals saying children are not welcome back at school if they have recently travelled abroad).

Tinkering around with one or two A330s for cargo ops is not going to solve their problems. You are critical of their response thus far - but if you were CEO it sounds like you would have the answers - what would you suggest they do that the management hasn't already considered?

donkey balls

imfml wrote: »

EI staff have begun a social media campaign that those who read here might be interested in signing and sharing.

https://www.change.org/p/minister-for-transport-tourism-and-sport-save-our-shamrock?recruiter=445998562&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=share_email_responsive&recruited_by_id=91ba4900-a0ce-11e5-9955-f9694e64df94&utm_content=fht-23838036-en-gb%3A3

Seen that Yesterday my friend that works for EI had put it up on FB.

Inquitus

Listening to the news earlier they said Aer Lingus has so far lost €361m due to Covid-19. Huge money!

Graham

imfml wrote: »

EI staff have begun a social media campaign that those who read here might be interested in signing and sharing.

https://www.change.org/p/minister-for-transport-tourism-and-sport-save-our-shamrock?recruiter=445998562&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=share_email_responsive&recruited_by_id=91ba4900-a0ce-11e5-9955-f9694e64df94&utm_content=fht-23838036-en-gb%3A3

Has EI suddenly been re-nationalised and put under immediate thread of winding-up?

Tenger

Graham wrote: »

Has EI suddenly been re-nationalised and put under immediate thread of winding-up?

Well the latter is correct.

Irish Govt restrictions (as well as the **** show in the US) is hitting EI very hard.
Ryanair are also affected but at least they have their EU/UK operations to generate cash flow.
At this point most (if not all) other Euro airlines have received cash/loans from Govts.
EG. Ryanair and Wizzair availed of the UK aviation aid scheme.

billy few mates

Tenger wrote: »

Well the latter is correct.

Irish Govt restrictions (as well as the **** show in the US) is hitting EI very hard.
Ryanair are also affected but at least they have their EU/UK operations to generate cash flow.
At this point most (if not all) other Euro airlines have received cash/loans from Govts.
EG. Ryanair and Wizzair availed of the UK aviation aid scheme.

Why were a company who regularly boast about having a €4 billion cash balance allowed to borrow €600 million to further shore their position while airlines they've previously tried to buy up or put out of business are left to struggle for survival?
Are there any conditions as to what this funding can be used for or could they use it to snap up other struggling airlines..?