Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

LimaRomeo990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122208970#Comment_122208970

Nope FR24 said it was cancelled this evening. Great accuracy from them

jellies

Isn't the pilot dispute a simple employee vs shareholder matter? Either the pilots get their payrise or the money ends up as shareholder dividends (assuming primarily to UK entities). So I'm always a bit bemused when PAYE workers are knocked by other PAYE workers for trying to maximize their personal value. Most other workers have the option to leave their jobs to do this but AL pilots cannot do this and hence the pay dispute. You could argue that they actually need to do this every 5-10 years to ensure they are getting a fair slice of the pie and keeping up with international benchmarks.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122210398#Comment_122210398

AL pilots have fewer options than the average PAYE worker, but they absolutely can apply to work for other airlines if they want to.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211728#Comment_122211728

I think what he means is aviation is run largely by pay scales and seniority! A bank manager in AIB can leave and join TSB also as a bank manager with better wages, benefits and seniority not really being a factor! In pilotland if an EI captain with say 10 years under their belt leaves and joins Ryanair, they’ll be at the bottom of the pay scale and seniority list and zero f**ks are given with regards to their time in EI! So while they can leave yes (and some do) it’s not like the normal 9-5 working world where the employee has a lot of options with regards where they want to work!

jellies

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211849#Comment_122211849

Exactly this. Apart from a few that try their luck in the desert I'd say most of the AL pilots will see out their 30-40 year careers there. In that career span they will probably see many many CEOs and COOs come and go. That's why the pilots need to see through management bs and execute their own strategy to ensure they are properly rewarded and respected in the airline over the long term.

MICKEYG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211849#Comment_122211849

Why don't the other airlines give them status when they join. Who is stopping this happening? Is it the unions at the other airlines? If so, should they not co-operate to make moving companies easier?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214092#Comment_122214092

When you have an entrenched seniority system, nobody is ever going to accept people skipping the queue on it.

Its a Victorian method of doing business, with only (some, loads but not all) airlines and Dublin Bus really still working on that basis; its not good for organisation and its not good for morale but those that are towards the top are never going to give it up willingly.

Noxegon

Air Traffic Control is the same – annual leave is essentially unavailable during the school holidays for anyone with less than about twenty years of service because the senior people all take it.

jellies

In a normal job (in theory) you can get promoted on the basis of ability. However you cannot be a "better" pilot than someone else provided you meet the required standards (which are tested every 6 mths). Also you need to have a system that removes competition from pilots operating on the line so that safety is the priority. Thats why all the major airlines AFAIK operate using seniority lists for pilots.

To change the system you would need all the airlines to agree to take pilots at various seniority levels based on experience for that to work. Its just not going to happen.

sandbelter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122204771#Comment_122204771

You only missed one thing…they're all Qatar Airways hand downs.

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214841#Comment_122214841

Well first off my opinion is totally pie in the sky but just to humour you for a second. The QR 788's are 8-12 years old. I can't see EI taking on 18-22 year old aircraft.

But you also need to look at the orders IAG have put through for 73M and 78's over the last couple of years. Thats where my wildly based conspiracy theory comes from and should be taken with a big pinch of salt, most especially by me.

knobtasticus

Not even those ‘towards the top’. Anyone already employed by an airline has a vested interest in having new joiners fall in behind them. Hard to argue with it too. Especially when career progression in aviation is almost entirely time-based, not skill-based. When you join at the bottom, you bide your time until a spot for command opens up. If the airline kept hiring direct-entry skippers into seniority ahead of you, you’d never make it out of the right seat/change fleets. Absolutely nothing wrong with seniority in this regard. There are other issues surrounding rosters and leave that low-seniority suffers initially but those are largely out-weighed by the overall career benefit.

I left an airline with seniority and joined one without and, after 10 years in the place, the continuing lack of ability to bid for leave or preferential duties (you can ask but there’s nothing working in your favour to get it) is major PITA. Gimme seniority any day.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215076#Comment_122215076

but arguably only because you did not do your due diligence in advance. If a clear merit based system was in place then theoretically would suit all but the less able. That utopia does not exist but an organisation which operates only based on time served is suitable only for the dust heap.

Personally I wonder whether IAG will eventually create an internal AOC in somewhere such as Malta which will bid to operate IB, EI flights etc. fundamentally, they are legacy carriers and if they are the only ones carrying the dead weight of senior staff whom they don’t need (under certain economic conditions) then they will fault or go bankrupt like the US majors - ultimately the workforce loses through to changes in pension and health benefit terms.

jellies

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215103#Comment_122215103

How would you establish a "merit" system for pilots? I think FR has fuel tables but there is only so far you can go down that road.

The AOC concept assumes there is a huge cohort of qualified unemployed pilots out there willing to work on the cheap. There just isn't and licensing regulations mean you cant import pilots from outside the EU (inc the UK after Brexit). Plus young people coming out of college today have more lucrative options available to them in IT and finance that restrict numbers coming into the profession. Its just not as attractive a career option as it was 20 or 30 years ago.

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214248#Comment_122214248

The way EI is run is exactly the same as my company operates, All seniority mad thing is if there was ever redundancies the Senior people have first preference to go its not last in first out.

And know one really ever leaves as the pay T&C are unreal, Starting out as a driver it could take you 10 years plus to get to the top. Only recently with a glut of retirements have seen the lads move up the ladder.

lintdrummer

EI pilots have overwhelmingly rejected the interim Labour court proposal.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0603/1452769-aer-lingus-pay-dispute/

knobtasticus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215373#Comment_122215373

Great day for the parish.

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215373#Comment_122215373

That's what you get with Ryanair management in a union company.

Lockheed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215439#Comment_122215439

Surely management are out of the question now, they have done all they could, accepted that they could not resolve it in house and so took the issue to the Labour Court - which is regarded very highly in the state in the resolution of labour disputes. EI mgmt hesitantly voted to accept the Labour Court recommendation and the pilots have voted to reject it.

Also, that article leaves out the fact that the 9.25% would have been backdated and that there was scope for continued re-negotiation of wages in the proposal - realy, I'm not sure how any pilot would trust EI Management in this case but again, it was part of a Labour Court recommendation so must have been some weight to that.

Either way, a summer of "green flu", cancellations and cockpit crew delays is now likely. Interesting to watch play out.

Van.Bosch

Leaving aside the judgement/opinion of whether the pilots are right or wrong - I wonder is there a risk thatEI setup a new carrier like Iberia Express or whatever the BA op at Gatwick is called?

existing pilots remain on their current terms but no new hires really and all go to AerLingus regional/express/Europe?

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215991#Comment_122215991

I strongly disagree that the management did all that they could. They refused to budge from their position during 18 months of negotiations. They ran to the press selling the sob story that the XLRs were lost because of the pilots. Meanwhile, they showed no will whatsoever to come to an agreement and solve the dispute; the only thing that, according to them, would have secured delivery of the XLRs. (Let's pretend the passenger cap and the fact that the XLR is not FAA certified don't matter).

They gladly accepted the terms of the interim agreement because it was a far lower amount than the pilots are seeking and it rules out the possibility of industrial action during the summer. Hesitancy didn't come in to it, it was a no brainer for them. The long letters from the COO to the pilots imploring them to also accept the proposal tell you all you need to know.

Every pay proposal, including the earlier tribunal proposal, would be backdated. That is not at all unique to the LC's proposal. Going on previous form, there is no reason whatsoever that the pilot body should have expected the management to renegotiate in good faith just because of a Labour Court recommendation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122216500#Comment_122216500

I'd say the risk is low. Where are they going to get their pilots from for a start?

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215991#Comment_122215991

A summer of green flu will play right into the hands of competitors.

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122217006#Comment_122217006

Judging by the cancellations over the last few weeks (and a week of hire-in) a green flu isnt required to cause disruption.

EI don't have much resilience in their A330 or A321LR fleet. 3 days of the week every aircraft is going across the Atlantic.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215307#Comment_122215307

A merit-based system could be based on relevant metrics for the position. I don’t know that saving fuel would be the only one applicable. 360 reviews from other staff members, consistently achieving necessary requirements such as zero errors on paperwork, whether available for unrosteted shifts (I suspect) is one which would not be applicable. Otherwise, why is length of service any measure - it wouldn’t be in most commercial organisations. Pilots would surely like to ckanider themselves valuable professionals rather than time-servers.

HTCOne

Length of service has benefits for the carrier also, it deters staff from leaving for other carriers. There is an absolutely chronic shortage of all skilled professions in aviation today. If an EI pilot with a few years experience could slot in to an equivalent position of seniority in Lufty or BA for example (who both pay better and have a much more diverse fleet and route network), they'd be gone like a shot, not to mention the US majors who pay double the top of EI's scale to senior captains on widebodies.

trellheim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122217515#Comment_122217515

However, in a functioning market, the salaries will rise to meet demand. So if BA are paying more, then who cares about the loss of seniority, you will still be (Capt or FO as appropriate) on more money, or is it the dropping down the bidding rank and getting all the earlies and lates (or whatever) … help me out here

Lockheed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122218261#Comment_122218261

Geography plays a huge role, if you have a life, family, kids etc in Ireland moving to BA would involve either uprooting all that and moving to England or commuting to LHR which is costly, difficult with disruption and fatiguing. The travel in uniform rules also make it a lot more difficult in recent history

Lets say you decide to commute - Commuting to a base with low seniority means you will not be able to bid for the duties that are more easily commutable (2-3night stops with paid overnights,and flights with attractive on/off duty times) and as well as that low seniority pilots are generally assigned more standby duties. In this case they may end up "commuting to reserve" which is commuting to base for a block of standby duties - essentially paying for a hotel or staying with someone you know for 3 days on the off chance you are needed to operate a flight.

In most cases it would take a serious bump in income for a pilot to take that hit to their work/life balance.

Astral Nav

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122218261#Comment_122218261

No you are wrong. A senior captain in one airline would become the most junior FO in a new airline. Moving only practical in loco airlines which generally have minimal working conditions.

It's amazing how a conversation about a pilot group's pay falling about 20-25% behind most people's increases ('19-'24) let alone the aviation industry has become a talking shop for people who don't even understand the first thing about what a pilot career involves.

shamrocka330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220186#Comment_122220186

Ah that’s not fair…..we discussed a route to Vegas for nearly 10 years and were proven right eventually…..we’ll nail this argument too.

MICKEYG

Its true I don't/didnt understand, I am interested in finding out and people here have been very generous with their knowledge. I don't see what is wrong with asking.

What is odd is that when one airline is treating its employees poorly they can't move to another (as would happen in other industries) as they would lose seniority. I imagine this preservation for seniority is backed by existing employees (and for good reason).

I does seem counter productive as it limits your ability to move but it (seniority based on tenure) is very easy to understand.

It does not happen in my industry but I am sure it happens in other ones.